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$0 Prize Rated Tournaments but as masters don't pay EFs why should we?? Chess is a Sport!!



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 18th 03, 09:20 AM posted to alt.chess,francom.echecs,nl.sport.schaken,rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.politics
A1
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Posts: 3
Default $0 Prize Rated Tournaments but as masters don't pay EFs why should we?? Chess is a Sport!!

Mr. Goichberg:

Ok respectfully I accept what you say as reasonable but as a hands on type
of guy I am accustomed of doing the research and the numbers I realize that
there is some truth to what you say but find it hard to believe that all the
facts related to such matters (which I know you have experience) have been
expositioned... I agree that some members of the public are expectant of
their conviences but also being who I am I can not come to accept $86 per
night hotel rooms (Bally's Resort for the 13th Annual North American Open)
for the 26-29th 4 days or $344 that is added on to the EF ($221) and
compounded by the the costs of travel ($217 by gad szooks) plus meals and
related expenses (totaling over $782) to win a prizes of between
$3000-10,000 totaling $100k of which 50% is guaranteed (very expensive)
based on 650 entrants at $221 that's only $143,650 from which there are
other expenses and revenues (OK) OK a big chess tournament only comes to
town maybe once or twice a year (? interesting)

From the outside what I see is the main expense is the prize money but for
those traveling to such tournaments the main expenses are accommodations and
expenses which % wise are more than 250% of the EF costs ... so relatively
after excluding the monies related to prizes awarded your expenses are less
than those attending chess tournaments. Yes I would like to stay where the
tournament is being held .... do I want to be trying to find my way around
a strange city/town just prior to a competitive event (no) but you must
realize on a strictly numbers basis
there has to be a better way e.g. I live in a small city now (ex-NYC)
without much chess activity maybe I will do some organizing myself (maybe I
can be successful at it [who knows]) but after some preliminary research
(very preliminary tentative) I found a 200 room hotel with a conference
hall of some size(could be bigger) and examined costs and find tentatively
not on the scale of a Bellagio or even a Bally's (I've been to Atlantic
City) that maybe such matters can be done differently so as to restructure
expenses to fit most peoples' budgets. I realize as a business the net
profits you realize could be better (though they are not bad ... but is that
a question?) in considering arrangements... I gave two alternative examples
of different venues where the whole contract doesn't have to be handled by a
single outfit like Bally's .... though they are well suited to present (I'm
sure) to present a total package to you with everything needed to conclude
some business (which is less complicated for some one organizing such an
affair .. as there is only one contract for services to be made to work and
not 2 or 3 or 4 contract etc.. that I understand .... but I did not hear
you to suggest that a less expensive venue was not feasible or impossible.

Traditionally who goes to Vegas (though it is an International place) it's
the people from California, Texas, Utah, Colorado etc as the people on the
East coast go to Atlantic City, but for them with the exception of travel
their expenses would be for all intents and purposes as much as someone
coming from NYC or Pa or Chicago as all of them need someplace to stay (and
they don't want to go camping or sleep in their cars in December out there
(its cold and is not that safe - might be illegal) so why can't a motel be
found nearby well for one the City of Las Vegas Bureau of Tourism (Ha) when
called said they do not provide infomation on motels (how convienent) and if
one goes out there it would be a hard enough without having to run around
but I have it on good authority that Vegas has plenty of places which are
underbooked and crying for business they just are off the radar screen when
you have to find via telephone email or by internet.

So that is why according to you:

Placing a big money tournament in a school or other non-hotel site costs

many
entries, as most out of town players want the convenience of staying where

the
tournament is. Even if a cheap motel is next door, most players stay at

the
host hotel.

Bill Goichberg


Because even if the cheap motel is right next door they wouldn't know its
there as its is even ignored by the Vegas Office of Tourism

Another example in point in Mexico with salaries often in some parts of
Mexico being $80 a month the slick idiots
of the Mexican Ministry of Tourism can't find someting to direct people to
something cheaper (via 800 line as they the government caters to a bunch of
hotels catering to spoiled tourists who never know what Mexico looks like..
just as in every major city of the world the major hotel businesses do ...
though in Paris, London, New York City, etc good clean and inexpensive
accomodations can be found

I think you are a very astute man.. So answer me this who should the money
go to the participants and organizers of chess tournaments or the big
hotels? for whereas let's say you had 650 entrants ($143,650 gross) those
participants could have approximately $223,600 in Bally hotel fees so for
approximately $143,650 in earnings divided between the entrants and
organizers the expenses are $223,600. So something is definately wrong as
over where I am for $223,600 I can maybe buy 10 houses, or rent 500 one
bedroom apartments for a month (providing accommodations for lets say 2-3
people per thats 1000-1500 people totaling stays of 4 days each, which in
theory could accomodate 7000 people to stay and play in 4 day chess
tournaments (please pardon my making light of this as you know all of what I
said and merely wished me work my ass off to support point you already
understood.

Now maybe the USCF should buy a place instead of rent it.. but then again
I'm proberly to altruistic or naive and one of the bright critics of the
USCF (the rude boys who are too cheap to even pay up their dues (* footnote
1) may make an issue of that too after all some creat problems and others
solve them which are you and me?

Are you financing or am I?

A1

"Recmate" wrote in message
...
Subject: $0 Prize Rated Tournaments but as masters don't pay EFs why
should we?? Chess is a Sport!!
From: "A1"
Date: 10/15/2003 11:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Current listed in the chess travel group there are 3 tournaments listed

for
which people are looking to split costs especially the HR over 3-4
(
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chess_travel/) as the total costs are very
high (though proper accomodations are needed) can the availability of
conference room etc justify the added but not so hidden cost of
accommodations ( I understand it often is a package deal But .....) as I

am
sure that other accomodations can be had if the added trouble was taken

(eg
a complete list of facilities in the surrounding area [cheaper hotels])

for
which separate facilities can often be had (eg in Universities that would
host tournamnets with outside attendees allowed/ dorms rented [as in

Europe
(Cite Universitaire/Paris)] .... In New York City I believe Armories have
been used for Fleas markets et al, and why do "high class" tournaments
always have to be booked in what seems the most expensive venue if the
purses are over $1000 per?? actually it does take time but highly

feasible
as eg the Bally Resorts Hotel this December is not the cheapest/least
expensive venue neither is Foxwoods etc. but this is where the
organizational weaknesses of the USCF comes to the fore and Chess

occupies
often the same bill in Casinos with hard gambling where the owners get

the
beter part of the deal (hmm where is the moral substance here) where in
those despotic totalitarian regimes (hmm) those no-good-niks (with state
sponsered programs [even France and Germany [not to mention Russia/or the
USSR], or maybe Argentina is better than the US no wonder there was only

one
Fischer or Morphy])....


Ballys is a lot cheaper than Bellaggio, Caesar's, Mandalay Bay, etc. It's

also
more expensive than many Las Vegas hotels, but most of the hotels cheaper

than
Ballys have insufficient meeting space. Those that have enough space tend

to
have poor lighting, exposure to noise, scattered meeting rooms, and/or
outrageous meeting room rent. You shouldn't be "sure" you could do better

if
you haven't tried.

Placing a big money tournament in a school or other non-hotel site costs

many
entries, as most out of town players want the convenience of staying where

the
tournament is. Even if a cheap motel is next door, most players stay at

the
host hotel.

Bill Goichberg


But it will not be treated as a sport until after Soccer (commercially)
unless we drawn on it/ and support it as a sport for the betterment of
people... so call me a fascist, call me a Red but let's place this into

its
proper perspective sportingly gentle men and ladies let's take chess out

of
the casino and gutter and for which I will wear my best silk suit, tie,

and
white shirt... by the way is the (Central Park Rapid now a USCF rated

event?
as that is an example of what maybe able to be done as it has good
attendence I hear)

"Ed Gaillard" wrote in message
...
In article ,
A1 wrote:
Maybe you should explain the confernce rooms aspect of what you said

as I
don't see the benifit of holding tournaments far removed from the

general
population in hotels that charge alot for rooms (hotel rates have

nothing
really to do with renting part of a hotel do they?)

Yes, they do. Conventions and conferences held in hotels normally get
function space for free if their attendees fill enough rooms of the
hotel. I assume chess tournament organizers get the same kind of
deals.


------------------------------------------------------------------
footnote one
------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Miriling"
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess.politics
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 10:09 AM
Subject: Battle of USCF nonmembers: Haas vs. Draney


Two of the most vocal critics of the USCF are former members Richard S.

Haas of
Florida and Bruce G. Draney of Nebraska. Both let their memberships expire
early in the 21st century - Draney, in September 2002,


USCF ID St Exp Date Reg Quick Member Name
-------- -- ---------- ----- ----- -----------------------
10374545 (NE) 2002-09-30 1913 1784 DRANEY, BRUCE G

10763410 10-01 HAAS,RICHARD S FL 12-90 1954


  #2  
Old October 18th 03, 02:21 PM posted to alt.chess,francom.echecs,nl.sport.schaken,rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.politics
StanB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 161
Default $0 Prize Rated Tournaments but as masters don't pay EFs why should we?? Chess is a Sport!!


"A1" wrote in message
...

Because even if the cheap motel is right next door they wouldn't know its
there as its is even ignored by the Vegas Office of Tourism


I know a guy who stays at the Armpit Motel across the street from the
Riviera when he plays in the National.

I like the tournaments in Las Vegas even though it is a thousand dollar
event for me to play. I have no illusions on winning money. I go because I
like chess and I like Las Vegas. In fact I already have my plane tickets and
Hotel reservation for this December's event.

I also prefer Bally's over the Riv because of its great location. If it was
at some Station Creation I wouldn't be quite as happy.

StanB




  #3  
Old October 18th 03, 02:27 PM posted to alt.chess,francom.echecs,nl.sport.schaken,rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.politics
Tim Hanke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default $0 Prize Rated Tournaments but as masters don't pay EFs why should we?? Chess is a Sport!!

"StanB" wrote ...

I go because I
like chess and I like Las Vegas. In fact I already have my plane tickets

and
Hotel reservation for this December's event.


Stan tried to book a room at Olympic Gardens but they were all reserved for
attendees at a COYOTE convention.

Tim Hanke


  #4  
Old October 18th 03, 07:04 PM posted to alt.chess,francom.echecs,nl.sport.schaken,rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.politics
sandirhodes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default $0 Prize Rated Tournaments but as masters don't pay EFs why should we?? Chess is a Sport!!


"StanB" wrote in message
I know a guy who stays at the Armpit Motel across the street from the
Riviera when he plays in the National.


Circus Circus?

I also prefer Bally's over the Riv because of its great location. If it

was
at some Station Creation I wouldn't be quite as happy.


Michael Jackson was going to invest in one of the Station casinos. He
backed out when they insisted on calling it Molest.


  #5  
Old October 18th 03, 09:06 PM posted to alt.chess,francom.echecs,nl.sport.schaken,rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.politics
StanB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 161
Default $0 Prize Rated Tournaments but as masters don't pay EFs why should we?? Chess is a Sport!!


"sandirhodes" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"StanB" wrote in message
I know a guy who stays at the Armpit Motel across the street from the
Riviera when he plays in the National.


Circus Circus?


No. A motel whose name escapes me. It is to the right of the Circus looking
from the Riv.

StanB



  #6  
Old October 19th 03, 11:09 PM posted to alt.chess,francom.echecs,nl.sport.schaken,rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.politics
A1
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default $0 Prize Rated Tournaments but as masters don't pay EFs why should we?? Chess is a Sport!!

What a disgrace it is in an International forum for the United States and
the United States Chess Federation to be represented in a forum such a this
by the like Tin Tim Hanke and his boozing buddies ....

Personally I don't think Hanke knows how to play chess any how but even if
he does he only exhibits himself as the modern day desendent of the Know
Nothing Party as he attempts to squash any proper discussion.
Congratulations Tiny Tim Hanke

As for the the other clowns in his entourage I would suggest there are many
people doing things for chess in the USA but its not you guys as it appears
that one day the USCF might have to be replaced in FIDE as it might not
really represent anything not the narrow visions of a very limited bunch of
elistists who have no foresight or hindsight as they lack game or any real
principles of any integrity as they efforts on behave of chess pale in
comparision to the efforts of Federations in other countries.


..




  #7  
Old October 20th 03, 12:40 AM posted to alt.chess,francom.echecs,nl.sport.schaken,rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.politics
StanB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 161
Default $0 Prize Rated Tournaments but as masters don't pay EFs why should we?? Chess is a Sport!!

Sorry Charlie, you ain't fooling anybody.

StanB

"A1" wrote in message
...
What a disgrace it is in an International forum for the United States and
the United States Chess Federation to be represented in a forum such a

this
by the like Tin Tim Hanke and his boozing buddies ....

Personally I don't think Hanke knows how to play chess any how but even if
he does he only exhibits himself as the modern day desendent of the Know
Nothing Party as he attempts to squash any proper discussion.
Congratulations Tiny Tim Hanke

As for the the other clowns in his entourage I would suggest there are

many
people doing things for chess in the USA but its not you guys as it

appears
that one day the USCF might have to be replaced in FIDE as it might not
really represent anything not the narrow visions of a very limited bunch

of
elistists who have no foresight or hindsight as they lack game or any real
principles of any integrity as they efforts on behave of chess pale in
comparision to the efforts of Federations in other countries.


.






  #8  
Old October 20th 03, 07:25 AM posted to alt.chess,francom.echecs,nl.sport.schaken,rec.games.chess.politics
A1
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default $0 Prize Rated Tournaments but as masters don't pay EFs why should we?? Chess is a Sport!!

What the matter Stan that stuttering of yours prevents you from speaking
complete thoughts in those one liners of yours? or are you just brainless?
maybe its both? in any case let's just say even if you'd actually learn to
speak, let's be honest you still wouldn't say someting!! Duh? can't you read
either?
By the way stop quote everyone else's messages if all you're going to do is
remain speechless stupid and disfunction... duh??


"StanB" wrote in message
...
Sorry Charlie, you ain't fooling anybody.

StanB


"A1" wrote in message
...
I agree with the general gist of what you are saying, as from my general
business experience leads me to the same exact conclusion (you are more
responsible in your approach to the question than Mr "Tiny" Tim Hanke

(et
al
company maybe you should run for EB you can't do worse than "Tiny" Tim)

as
generally business on a large scale should be done by making a request/s

for
proposals/bids by the group/business desiring circumstances on which it

can
act ... sometimes a good deal can be made by negiotating ... though

between
the numbers on one side and the asthetic values on the other there are
choices to be made (as Donald Trump aptly tilitled the book "The Art of

the
Deal") ....

Mr. Goichberg undoubtly will feel some discomfort with people talking

about
this ...... but frankly he was not completely candid for if he were

.......
we would have a bunch of numbers right now before us to crunch (and

that's
alot of work to come to clean off the bench) ...... just like when he

(on
his website) throws numbers at the USCF and its members... he's a pro he
knows what he is saying (but) to him it is also a job for him to make

easier
not better for others (if we have maney we can enter tournaments if we

don't
we can't ... and it doesn't matter how good we play chess.

I was very impressed by the Mexican world record of the most number of
participants in a chess tournament, and also very impressed by the

Central
Park Open (that got off to a rough start the first year and is slowly
ironing out the sharp edges) ... the chess events of the USSR Yugoslavia

etc
also are very impressive.

But why is it these guys always want me to spent more money than I

normally
budget myself .... is it such a problem to make arrangements to have a

block
of more inexpensive accomodations nearby and some sort of means to

transport
those staying there back and forth? I don't exactly care if these people

are
capitalists (the USA is the World Center of capitalism no way to get

around
it) but SOME OF THESE PEOPLE are some of the most petty, self-centered,

mean
spirited, spiteful, counter productive capitalist, anarchistic,

libertarian,
cut off the nose to spite the face kind of people I have heard from.

Let me ask what does it cost to arrange for a van service to and from

the
hotel site to another nearby motel/hotel and to make arrangements for a
block of rooms at another hotel/motel? Not much after all the projected
gross receipts of the Vegas event 13th annual are OVER $143,650 hmm??

There
are van services back in Queens New
York illegally/legally competing with regular bus routes and on moving

from
NYC after traveling south I arrived
in PA where I found a pretty decent good clean hotel room with cable TV

for
only $415 per month so why do I want a room at Bally's for $86 a night

for
four days ($344)

Personal let Mr Goichberg book the site for tournaments but I bet you if

I
get enough requests for accomodations in any town city or hamlet in the

USA
(I can accept electronicly Mastercharge Visa Discovery card charges plus
bank transfers etc) I can book a block of rooms at rates better than

what
Mr
Goichberg arranges..(for a booking fee to cover expenses) including

swimming
pool gym jacuzzi cable TV (and transportation to and from the site)

perhaps
even Internet access in the rooms (individual or double occupied).

So let Tiny Tim blow his money of the biggest most expensive suite he

can
find (I doubt he can afford it.. if he can get a reservation) as

Alekhine
played for quarters when salaries were $5 a week let us see them try the
first thing they'll say when they lose is they weren't playing for

money,
but actually sure they are... unless its all for fun and no money is
involved in which case I'll meet you in my friendly neighborhood park...

now
that's an idea ... rent tables and run major tournaments in the parks...

oh
shucks I forgot some of these guys/gals only run on high octane.

with best wishs
gens una sumus
AZ

"Kevin L. Bachler" wrote in message
...
In article , A1 says...

Mr. Goichberg:
SNIP

I think you are a very astute man.. So answer me this who should the

money
go to the participants and organizers of chess tournaments or the big
hotels?

There isn't any "should" about it. It's not a moral decision. It's

an
economic
one. The hotels charge what they charge. You either pay it or don't

use
them.
If the numbers work better with them, you use them and have more

entries
per
Bill's comment. If the numbers for schools were better, you might use

them,
even though your number of entries may decrease.

Kevin L. Bachler







 




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