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Rules Question from National Chess Congress



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 29th 04, 08:22 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess,alt.chess
Sam Sloan
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Posts: 1,558
Default Rules Question from National Chess Congress

Rules question from National Chess Congress

In the National Chess Congress today the following situation arose.
Two players in the Under-1200 section have scores of 4-0 with two
rounds remaining. First prize is 1200.

Black makes move 15, capturing a pawn. White, upon seeing the move,
leaves the board and does not return for 35 minutes. When he gets
back, White instantly plays the killer move and the game is over two
moves later.

Black complains to the director, claiming that White probably went
somewhere and looked up the position on Fritz and came back and played
the move that Fritz recommended.

Several experts and masters look at the position and all of them feel
that the winning move White played was not difficult to find and so
the result stands.

Still, the behavior of White is suspicious. How would you rule?

Here is approximately the position:

r1bq1kr1/4pp1p/p1np2pQ/1p1N4/4n3/5N2/PPP2PPP/2KR1B1R

In this position, Black has just played Nxe4. White leaves the board
and returns 35 minutes later and instantly plays Bd3. Black responds
Nf6 and now White plays Ng5 winning because the threat of Nxf6 exf6
Nxh7# mate is unstoppable.

How would you rule? Is a warning to White enough or should he be
forfeited?

Sam Sloan

  #2  
Old November 29th 04, 09:08 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess,alt.chess
Duncan Oxley
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Posts: 267
Default Rules Question from National Chess Congress

Sam,

Why don't you ask the TD?

He or she has the final word.

Duncan

"Sam Sloan" wrote in message
...
Rules question from National Chess Congress

In the National Chess Congress today the following situation arose.
Two players in the Under-1200 section have scores of 4-0 with two
rounds remaining. First prize is 1200.

Black makes move 15, capturing a pawn. White, upon seeing the move,
leaves the board and does not return for 35 minutes. When he gets
back, White instantly plays the killer move and the game is over two
moves later.

Black complains to the director, claiming that White probably went
somewhere and looked up the position on Fritz and came back and played
the move that Fritz recommended.

Several experts and masters look at the position and all of them feel
that the winning move White played was not difficult to find and so
the result stands.

Still, the behavior of White is suspicious. How would you rule?

Here is approximately the position:

r1bq1kr1/4pp1p/p1np2pQ/1p1N4/4n3/5N2/PPP2PPP/2KR1B1R

In this position, Black has just played Nxe4. White leaves the board
and returns 35 minutes later and instantly plays Bd3. Black responds
Nf6 and now White plays Ng5 winning because the threat of Nxf6 exf6
Nxh7# mate is unstoppable.

How would you rule? Is a warning to White enough or should he be
forfeited?

Sam Sloan



  #3  
Old November 29th 04, 10:37 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess,alt.chess
Antonio Torrecillas
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Posts: 3
Default Rules Question from National Chess Congress

Here is approximately the position:

r1bq1kr1/4pp1p/p1np2pQ/1p1N4/4n3/5N2/PPP2PPP/2KR1B1R

In this position, Black has just played Nxe4. White leaves the board
and returns 35 minutes later and instantly plays Bd3. Black responds
Nf6 and now White plays Ng5 winning because the threat of Nxf6 exf6
Nxh7# mate is unstoppable.

How would you rule? Is a warning to White enough or should he be
forfeited?

Sam Sloan


This position is not legal, ... please check!


  #4  
Old November 29th 04, 12:17 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess,alt.chess
Ray Gordon
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Posts: 337
Default Rules Question from National Chess Congress

I've said before that unless you restrict the playing area, this is going to
happen.

I won't play in an OTB tournament for that reason.



  #5  
Old November 29th 04, 01:00 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess,alt.chess
Nick Hounsome
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Posts: 3
Default Rules Question from National Chess Congress

"Sam Sloan" wrote in message
...
Rules question from National Chess Congress

In the National Chess Congress today the following situation arose.
Two players in the Under-1200 section have scores of 4-0 with two
rounds remaining. First prize is 1200.

Black makes move 15, capturing a pawn. White, upon seeing the move,
leaves the board and does not return for 35 minutes. When he gets
back, White instantly plays the killer move and the game is over two
moves later.


IMHO, and not claiming any great chess expertise, the wording of your post
is heavily loaded with a presumption of guilt. In particular the use of the
word "instantly" - 35 minutes is not instant by any reasonable definition of
the word. Having taken 35 minutes to discover (by fair means or foul) a
winning move, what do you expect the guy to do? Come back and twiddle his
thumbs for 5 minutes?
The guy took 35 minutes to find a winning move that 2 experts say is not
that hard to find. What's to be suspicious of?


  #6  
Old November 29th 04, 01:03 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess,alt.chess
Greg Wren
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Posts: 15
Default Rules Question from National Chess Congress

Lacking evidence, "presumed guilty until proven innocent" is pretty harsh.
(After all, the person had a winning move before taking a break.) Yes, 35
minutes is a long time (!), impolite and inconsiderate - still (?!) lacking
evidence of cheating, perhaps the "winner" just wanted to rub it in (dumb).


  #7  
Old November 29th 04, 02:22 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess,alt.chess
Sam Sloan
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Posts: 1,558
Default Rules Question from National Chess Congress

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 00:08:00 -0800, "Duncan Oxley" [email protected] wrote:

Sam,

Why don't you ask the TD?

He or she has the final word.

Duncan


The TD was asked, of course. That is how this came up. First Steve
Immitt, the TD of this particular section, was asked. Then, two other
TDs were consulted for their opinion. All agreed that the only thing
that could be done was ask the offending player where he was and then
give him a warning about this behavior. In view of the large amount of
money at involved, the only meaningful penalty would have been a
forfeiture.

Sam Sloan
  #8  
Old November 29th 04, 02:28 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess,alt.chess
Sam Sloan
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Posts: 1,558
Default Rules Question from National Chess Congress

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:37:43 +0100, Antonio Torrecillas
wrote:

Here is approximately the position:

r1bq1kr1/4pp1p/p1np2pQ/1p1N4/4n3/5N2/PPP2PPP/2KR1B1R

In this position, Black has just played Nxe4. White leaves the board
and returns 35 minutes later and instantly plays Bd3. Black responds
Nf6 and now White plays Ng5 winning because the threat of Nxf6 exf6
Nxh7# mate is unstoppable.

How would you rule? Is a warning to White enough or should he be
forfeited?

Sam Sloan


This position is not legal, ... please check!


I do not see anything illegal about this position. In any case, I do
not claim that this is the exact position, but it is very close.

The opening moves were 1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. Qxd4 Nc6 4. Qd3 This did
not look like a book opening, so I doubt that the offending player
consulted a book during his long absence from the board.

Sam Sloan
  #9  
Old November 29th 04, 02:54 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess,alt.chess
Antonio Torrecillas
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Posts: 3
Default Rules Question from National Chess Congress

En/na Sam Sloan ha escrit:
Here is approximately the position:

r1bq1kr1/4pp1p/p1np2pQ/1p1N4/4n3/5N2/PPP2PPP/2KR1B1R

In this position, Black has just played Nxe4. White leaves the board
and returns 35 minutes later and instantly plays Bd3. Black responds
Nf6 and now White plays Ng5 winning because the threat of Nxf6 exf6
Nxh7# mate is unstoppable.


This position is not legal, ... please check!


I do not see anything illegal about this position. In any case, I do
not claim that this is the exact position, but it is very close.


When a player is under check, HE can not move a knight having his own
king in prise.

Tha mean "...Nxe4 is an ILLEGAL move"

Sam Sloan


AT

  #10  
Old November 29th 04, 04:06 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess,alt.chess
Sam Sloan
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Posts: 1,558
Default Rules Question from National Chess Congress

At 12:26 AM 11/29/2004 -0800, Greg Shahade wrote:

35 minutes in a last round game for $1200? Theres no
way that should be allowed. If a player even thinks
they have to leave that long in a big money round,
they should get the approval of the director, or at
least notify someone.


Actually, it was the next to last round. However, the principle is the
same. By winning this game, the offending player had a score of 5-0
and was in clear first place with one round to go. Even if he lost the
last game, he would still get a substantial prize. Even 5th prize was
$200.

I would say that it is almost certain that he did cheat. The position
on the board is critical. Bd3 involved the sacrifice of the exchange,
because Nxf2 forks the two rooks. It is not immediately clear that the
black king cannot escape somehow.

One does not walk away from the board and spend time talking to
friends with his clock running in this situation. Therefore, he must
have been cheating.

I think that everyone will agree that the probability that White did
cheat is high, probably at least 90%. The question is whether the
rules allow for the punishment of forfeiture without proof beyond
reasonable doubt.

Sam Sloan
 




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