Help Bot played against Advance Level and to my surprise win the game.

I find Help Bot created a wall of pawns So that Advance Level which
thinks 18 depth deep could not peneterate the wall. And in the end
Help Bot was able to get one good Combination and win the Game.

Looks like GetClub is still a baby for Help Bot. He played moves in
just 2 min / move while GetClub was thinking 30 min / move. Still Help
Bot was able to find a victory.

(See the Recorded game at Bottom)
----------------------------------------------------

The game was even (equal) till 60 Moves. But after the Queens were
exchanged Help Bot managed to fork Two pawns with rooks and kill one
of the pawn and then in a few moves He got the Queen.

So help Bot win the game in just 68 moves.

There were no Tactical Mistake in this game as Both had equal pieces
till end. But I think there were strategical mistakes by GetClub.

But since this was Advance Level which thinks 18 moves ahead it is
very difficult to win by taking its pieces. So Help Bot was able to
use good strategy in beating the Advance Level.

Game Played between help bot and advance at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
advance: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...209&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(help bot) -- (advance)

1. c2-c3{26} e7-e5{0}
2. g2-g3{16} Ng8-f6{1548}
3. Bf1-g2{18} d7-d5{1792}
4. d2-d4{34} e5-e4{1724}
5. f2-f3{12} Bc8-f5{2352}
6. Ng1-h3{90} e4-f3{2180}
7. e2-f3{16} Qd8-e7{2268}
8. Ke1-f2{46} Qe7-d7{2420}
9. Nh3-f4{74} Rh8-g8{1344}
10. Rh1-e1{60} Bf8-e7{3106}
11. Nf4-d3{52} Nb8-c6{1464}
12. Nd3-c5{84} Qd7-c8{2474}
13. Bg2-f1{98} Ke8-f8{1502}
14. Nc5-d3{40} Nf6-d7{2138}
15. b2-b3{372} g7-g5{2812}
16. Nb1-a3{184} h7-h5{1852}
17. Na3-c2{92} h5-h4{1862}
18. g3-g4{18} Bf5-e6{1520}
19. Kf2-g2{94} Ra8-b8{2722}
20. Nc2-e3{136} Be7-d6{3254}
21. Kg2-h1{72} Nd7-b6{3970}
22. a2-a4{162} Rg8-g6{1782}
23. Bc1-a3{78} Bd6-a3{1470}
24. Ra1-a3{10} Rg6-f6{1736}
25. Ra3-a2{92} Kf8-g8{2204}
26. Ra2-f2{136} Qc8-f8{1642}
27. f3-f4{64} Qf8-d8{1576}
28. f4-f5{268} Be6-d7{1694}
29. Bf1-g2{112} Rf6-d6{1690}
30. Kh1-g1{120} Qd8-f6{1872}
31. Nd3-c5{44} Qf6-h6{2288}
32. h2-h3{98} Qh6-f6{1536}
33. Rf2-e2{98} a7-a5{1452}
34. Ne3-f1{110} Kg8-h7{1806}
35. Nf1-h2{138} Qf6-d8{2114}
36. Nh2-f3{96} f7-f6{1386}
37. Re2-e3{152} Kh7-h8{3110}
38. Bg2-f1{54} Nb6-a8{2004}
39. Bf1-b5{88} b7-b6{1732}
40. Nc5-d7{38} Qd8-d7{2220}
41. Qd1-e2{138} Rb8-g8{2976}
42. Kg1-f2{102} Qd7-f7{1810}
43. Re3-e6{290} Nc6-a7{1328}
44. Re6-e7{430} Qf7-f8{3652}
45. Re7-e8{74} Qf8-g7{1900}
46. Bb5-d3{132} Rd6-d8{2334}
47. Re8-e6{124} Rd8-d7{1486}
48. Kf2-f1{210} c7-c6{1816}
49. Qe2-f2{122} Qg7-f8{1688}
50. Kf1-g2{260} Rd7-h7{2590}
51. Re1-e2{112} Na8-c7{1938}
52. Re6-e3{2218} c6-c5{2018}
53. Qf2-e1{134} Na7-c6{1702}
54. Bd3-b5{726} c5-d4{2534}
55. Nf3-d4{254} Nc6-d4{1588}
56. c3-d4{32} Qf8-d6{2438}
57. Re3-c3{1130} Nc7-b5{2912}
58. a4-b5{18} Qd6-f4{1476}
59. Qe1-f2{50} Qf4-f2{2484}
60. Kg2-f2{14} Rh7-b7{1764}
61. Re2-e6{66} Rg8-f8{1890}
62. Rc3-c6{82} Rf8-f7{2150}
63. Rc6-b6{102} Rb7-b6{1576}
64. Re6-b6{10} Kh8-g7{2306}
65. Rb6-c6{90} Rf7-e7{2146}
66. Pb5-b6{38} Re7-e4{1832}
67. Pb6-b7{52} Re4-e2{1594}
68. Kf2-e2{8} Kg7-f7{0}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
advance: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...209&game=Chess

Since I am very weak player and even cant handle the Beginner Level
which plays in 5-6 sec / move. I do not know much about chess playing
techniques.

But looking at this game can you find any weakness in GetClub Game
that need to be corrected. Since Advance level thinks 18 depth deep it
is very difficult to say a move is wrong by Tactics but still Strategy
mistakes can be found in the game.

Please tell what could have been done by GetClub to win the Game. As
Help Bot created a Wall of Pawns not allowing Advance Level to cross
the board.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On May 23, 2:07 am, Sanny wrote:

Help Bot played against Advance Level and to my surprise win the game.

I find Help Bot created a wall of pawns So that Advance Level which
thinks 18 depth deep could not peneterate the wall. And in the end
Help Bot was able to get one good Combination and win the Game.

Looks like GetClub is still a baby for Help Bot. He played moves in
just 2 min / move while GetClub was thinking 30 min / move. Still Help
Bot was able to find a victory.

(See the Recorded game at Bottom)
----------------------------------------------------

The game was even (equal) till 60 Moves. But after the Queens were
exchanged Help Bot managed to fork Two pawns with rooks and kill one
of the pawn and then in a few moves He got the Queen.

So help Bot win the game in just 68 moves.

There were no Tactical Mistake in this game as Both had equal pieces
till end. But I think there were strategical mistakes by GetClub.

But since this was Advance Level which thinks 18 moves ahead it is
very difficult to win by taking its pieces. So Help Bot was able to
use good strategy in beating the Advance Level.


help bot: (White)
advance: (Black)
Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...209&game=Chess

Since I am very weak player and even cant handle the Beginner Level
which plays in 5-6 sec / move. I do not know much about chess playing
techniques.

But looking at this game can you find any weakness in GetClub Game
that need to be corrected. Since Advance level thinks 18 depth deep it
is very difficult to say a move is wrong by Tactics but still Strategy
mistakes can be found in the game.

Please tell what could have been done by GetClub to win the Game. As
Help Bot created a Wall of Pawns not allowing Advance Level to cross
the board.

In this game, the recent problem with Rook to Knight-one
manifested itself. In general, such moves only make sense
if preparing for a wild no-holds-barred pawn-storm of the
castled position, sacrificing to open lines if necessary. In
that case, the Black King would need to find shelter on the
other wing-- which did not happen here. This R-N1 problem
has appeared in several of my most recent games.

Another error was the spite check, ...Q-e7+. This was
obviously a bad move, but I will say that even grandmasters
-- such as Yasser Seirawan, for instance -- have made the
very same mistake!

The Queen incursion (i.e. ...Qf4) / trade was fatal, as I
controlled both open files and only a desperate pawn sac'
(...a4) would allow for any counter-play whatsoever; such a
sacrifice would have placed me up two pawns-- surely a
good thing for White. Still, it was better than passive
(non-)defense, as in the game.

Apparently, the program saw my prospective Knight sac'
(on h4) coming, for it defended with ...R-h7 at just the right
time. It also managed to cover penetration squares on the
open e-file after I tripled my heavy pieces, intending to
brute-force my way in. The finish was a bit shocking,
though; instead of setting up a potential stalemate, the
GetClub program gave away its last Rook and then
instantaneously "resigned", as if it somehow knew that I
was not a seventh grader, who might fall for such a trick.

The idea of locking up pawns and avoiding trades was
to cramp Black, and then figure out a way to overwhelm
his defenses at some point. However, what actually
happened was that I was unable to penetrate on the
e-file by force, and only via a risky sacrifice of my
Queen-side pawns was I able to sneak my way in--
with considerable help from my opponent.

Black was quite cramped in this game, and the
tactical wizardry of the Advance level was, perhaps,
rendered invisible. When Sanny says it sees 18
moves ahead, I suspect he means 18 plys-- or very
roughly 9 moves ahead.


-- help bot

* In this game, the recent problem with Rook to Knight-one
manifested itself. *In general, such moves only make sense
if preparing for a wild no-holds-barred pawn-storm of the
castled position, sacrificing to open lines if necessary. *In
that case, the Black King would need to find shelter on the
other wing-- which did not happen here. *This R-N1 problem
has appeared in several of my most recent games.

Yes I have seen R-N1 is played many times when no other good move is
found.

Is placing Rook to Knight place a weak move? Why is this move
considered weak move I think there is no piece loss?

Should Rook not allowed to move in 1st Rank? How much penalty should
be added to this move?



* Another error was the spite check, ...Q-e7+. * This was
obviously a bad move, but I will say that even grandmasters
-- such as Yasser Seirawan, for instance -- have made the
very same mistake!

It played 7..... Qe7 So tyhat White King move and unable to chastle.


* The Queen incursion (i.e. ...Qf4) / trade was fatal, as I
controlled both open files and only a desperate pawn sac'

I see 58 ....Qf4 As there was no way to stop Rook from taking the
pawns.


*The finish was a bit shocking,
though; instead of setting up a potential stalemate,
theGetClubprogram gave away its last Rook and then
instantaneously "resigned", as if it somehow knew that I
was not a seventh grader, who might fall for such a trick.

Actually Advance Level seeing at 18 ply was able to see a Forced Mate
for all other moves.

In end game Advance may be thinking 22 ply deep. And I think it had
seen a Mate in 11 Moves or Mate in 22 Ply.



* The idea of locking up pawns and avoiding trades was
to cramp Black, and then figure out a way to overwhelm
his defenses at some point. *However, what actually
happened was that I was unable to penetrate on the
e-file by force, and only via a risky sacrifice of my
Queen-side pawns was I able to sneak my way in--
with considerable help from my opponent.

I do not see any sacrifice of your Queen side pawns. At the end number
of pawns were same.

* Black was quite cramped in this game, and the
tactical wizardry of the Advance level was, perhaps,
rendered invisible. *When Sanny says it sees 18
moves ahead, I suspect he means 18 plys-- or very
roughly 9 moves ahead.

Yes it sees 18 ply in Middle game and upto 22 ply in end game. Or 9
Moves in Middle game and 11 moves in end game.

Great Analysis.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On May 23, 4:43 am, Sanny wrote:

In this game, the recent problem with Rook to Knight-one
manifested itself. In general, such moves only make sense
if preparing for a wild no-holds-barred pawn-storm of the
castled position, sacrificing to open lines if necessary. In
that case, the Black King would need to find shelter on the
other wing-- which did not happen here. This R-N1 problem
has appeared in several of my most recent games.

Yes I have seen R-N1 is played many times when no other good move is
found.

Is placing Rook to Knight place a weak move? Why is this move
considered weak move I think there is no piece loss?

In this game the computer played R-N1 on both sides
of the board, which left the King unable to castle either
way. In general, the timing of these moves in my
games has been such that a passive, do-nothing
"attitude" manifests itself. Meanwhile, I might be
completing my piece development or maneuvering to
control a vital open file, giving me a winning advantage.


Should Rook not allowed to move in 1st Rank? How much penalty should
be added to this move?

Instead of applying the stick to errant Rooks, why
not just dangle a carrot in front of *good* moves?


Another error was the spite check, ...Q-e7+. This was
obviously a bad move, but I will say that even grandmasters
-- such as Yasser Seirawan, for instance -- have made the
very same mistake!

It played 7..... Qe7 So tyhat White King move and unable to chastle.

That's what GM Seirawan thought as well, in his
famous game against Boris Spassky in the King's
Gambit!


The Queen incursion (i.e. ...Qf4) / trade was fatal, as I
controlled both open files and only a desperate pawn sac'

I see 58 ....Qf4 As there was no way to stop Rook from taking the
pawns.

Even if, as you say, there was no way to stop White
from taking the pawn(s), when losing, the proper
approach (as I have learned from *vast* experience in
this area) is to obtain counter-play. Otherwise, even
a relatively weak player can finish you off without too
much trouble.


The finish was a bit shocking,
though; instead of setting up a potential stalemate,
theGetClubprogram gave away its last Rook and then
instantaneously "resigned", as if it somehow knew that I
was not a seventh grader, who might fall for such a trick.

Actually Advance Level seeing at 18 ply was able to see a Forced Mate
for all other moves.

I never got to see the final listed move, ...Kf7; on
my screen, it appeared as though the instant I
captured the Rook, the program "resigned". Any
decent human player would have either delayed
the Queening of the pawn as long as possible, or
else set up a potential stalemate (Black King on
h6, White Rook on the seventh rank, etc.) in hope
of swindling a draw. I realize this is not something
which can easily be programmed into a computer,
since it requires a huge blunder by the opponent
to work. It relates to the psychology of a player
who knows he is winning easily, and who then
becomes careless (which never happens to me,
of course). :D


In end game Advance may be thinking 22 ply deep. And I think it had
seen a Mate in 11 Moves or Mate in 22 Ply.

Not bad, but the moves actually played do not
reflect this depth, since it plays very-sub-optimal
defense at the end of each game it loses.


The idea of locking up pawns and avoiding trades was
to cramp Black, and then figure out a way to overwhelm
his defenses at some point. However, what actually
happened was that I was unable to penetrate on the
e-file by force, and only via a risky sacrifice of my
Queen-side pawns was I able to sneak my way in--
with considerable help from my opponent.

I do not see any sacrifice of your Queen side pawns. At the end number
of pawns were same.

The program did not take them, but they were
offered. (Instead, it went in for a Queen trade with
....Q-f4, losing like a cucumber.) After ...Nxb5, my
Queen-side pawns are defenseless, but if they
are taken, I get to chomp the Black pawn on f6
and then attack the enemy King.


Black was quite cramped in this game, and the
tactical wizardry of the Advance level was, perhaps,
rendered invisible. When Sanny says it sees 18
moves ahead, I suspect he means 18 plys-- or very
roughly 9 moves ahead.

Yes it sees 18 ply in Middle game and upto 22 ply in end game. Or 9
Moves in Middle game and 11 moves in end game.

Great Analysis.

I ran this through another chess program and
sure enough, I missed several different ways to
win material in tricky combinations, and one
which was quite obvious. One example was
where I could have played Nxg5, and if the Rook
recaptures, I win the Black Queen with R-e8.
But here, if the pawn captures the Knight, it is
not quite so simple. At the time, I was thinking
about another sacrifice (Nxh4), which had
carefully been circumvented by Black.

The worst mistake in the entire game may well
have been mine: 51. R/1-e2 shows the position
score falling off a cliff, because I failed to find the
crushing blow 51. Nxg5!. From about moves 45
through 50, my advantage nearly evaporated as
I prepared to sacrifice on h4 or triple on the open
file. Clearly, when it comes to tactics, I'm just
not in the same "class" as computers (not even
in the same school district).


-- help bot

Game has been further improved taking your advices now GetClub will
play much stronger game.

With every new improvement GetClub is becoming stronger and stronger.
Now on you will have to beat it tactically as now I have improved its
strategy a bit. So it will not allow ro form a wall of pawns.

Lets see how it plays in new games and if anything else needs change.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On May 24, 2:01 am, Sanny wrote:

Game has been further improved taking your advices now GetClub will
play much stronger game.

It is amazing just how many times the program has
been greatly improved while still not exceeding my
own, rather limited strength. Looking back, I would
have to guess that it started somewhere around a
negative five thousand rating, to account for all these
vast improvements. ;D


With every new improvement GetClub is becoming stronger and stronger.
Now on you will have to beat it tactically as now I have improved its
strategy a bit. So it will not allow ro form a wall of pawns.

It appears that the wall of pawns resulted in *me*
missing several tactical blows. Another way for me
to handle the computer's superior tactical strength
is by a combination of simple, solid play, and
simplification. I may yet be able to win, say, a
Rook and pawns ending, from a dead-even position
or one where I have just a miniscule edge.

As I recall, an old game between DeepThought
and GM Karpov had the former gobbling pawns
while the human player finagled a pair of
connected passed pawns, to win. It's not so
easy for programmers to get everything just right,
and sometimes a chess program is calculating
millions of variations which a strong human
player "just knows" are irrelevant.

Right now, I am playing the Master level, and
I have Black. Pieces are getting traded off, and
nobody has any significant advantage. But I
hope to kick butt in the endgame, using my
vastly superior human understanding to
overcome a dumb-but-fast calculating machine.


-- help bot

Game has been further improved taking your advices nowGetClubwill
play much stronger game.

* It is amazing just how many times the program has
been greatly improved while still not exceeding my
own, rather limited strength. *Looking back, I would
have to guess that it started somewhere around a
negative five thousand rating, to account for all these
vast improvements. *;D

Not actually so.

Remember earlier Beginner Level used to think for 10 min / move and
Master Level used to think for 5-10 hours / move.

Now Beginner Plays in just 10 seconds / Move.

So When the game was improved 60 times That was only used to shorten
the time from 10 min/ move to 10 sec / move.

Once It started playing fast Then It really increased in strength. Now
no one complains it is taking long time. But last 6 months people were
complaining it is very weak.

But last 2 month no one said it is weak and most of them are now using
other Commercial program to win higher Levels. Only you are capable of
beating without Commercial program help. And may be Taylor Kingston
too win the higher Levels without using help from Computers.

At the moment GetClub is 40 times weaker than Rybka the worlds best
program. That is GetClub takes 40 seconds to think a move which Rybka
can search in 1 second.

Once GetClub is improved 40 times It will be as strong as worlds
fastest Engine. (RYBKA)

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

* Right now, I am playing the Master level, and
I have Black. *Pieces are getting traded off, and
nobody has any significant advantage. *But I
hope to kick butt in the endgame, using my
vastly superior human understanding to
overcome a dumb-but-fast calculating machine.

Now, Master level will play as strong as Advance Level played 2 days
ago. Depth of search will be same but the strategy will be much better
making it play as good as Advance Level in overall strength.

Everytime you win a game against Higher Level I learn the mistakes in
GetClub Chess and it is improved further.

Your chances of winning Master Level is same as what it was against
winning the Advance Level 2 days back.

I hope you may Draw the game. Then lets see how you face the Advance
Level.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On May 25, 2:05 am, Sanny wrote:

Remember earlier Beginner Level used to think for 10 min / move and
Master Level used to think for 5-10 hours / move.

Now Beginner Plays in just 10 seconds / Move.

So When the game was improved 60 times That was only used to shorten
the time from 10 min/ move to 10 sec / move.

Once It started playing fast Then It really increased in strength. Now
no one complains it is taking long time. But last 6 months people were
complaining it is very weak.

True enough. I stopped playing the lower levels
since I am now much higher-rated than they are,
and one careless move could cost me a lot of
rating points.


But last 2 month no one said it is weak and most of them are now using
other Commercial program to win higher Levels. Only you are capable of
beating without Commercial program help.

Very few great players -- besides me -- know of
the existence of GetClub, so that leaves mainly
the numskulls... .


And may be Taylor Kingston

You read my mind.


too win the higher Levels without using help from Computers.

Mr. Kingston is the sort of guy who might use
a computer, then report here his "peak" GetClub
rating, to compare with others' average ratings.


At the moment GetClub is 40 times weaker than Rybka the worlds best
program. That is GetClub takes 40 seconds to think a move which Rybka
can search in 1 second.

Part of that may be the Java applet's inherent
slowness.


Once GetClub is improved 40 times It will be as strong as worlds
fastest Engine. (RYBKA)

I don't know if Rybka is the fastest engine...
but it seems to be the strongest.


Everytime you win a game against Higher Level I learn the mistakes in
GetClub Chess and it is improved further.

The wins are now taking longer, because I am
playing the higher levels and having a tougher
time winning material (hey, I'm no GM Alekhine
who can whip up a mating attack from out of
nowhere).


Your chances of winning Master Level is same as what it was against
winning the Advance Level 2 days back.

About 99%? ;D


I hope you may Draw the game. Then lets see how you face the Advance
Level.

Most of my draws have been the result of my
having a clearly losing position. I don't allow
many draws, even against humans, except
when the alternative is near-certain death. In
fact, I lost a game this way not long ago, and
had another game where I ought to have lost
as a result of refusing a draw offer in a
tournament; that guy gave me a draw even
after I made further blunders.


-- help bot

At the momentGetClubis 40 times weaker than Rybka the worlds best
program. That isGetClubtakes 40 seconds to think a move which Rybka
can search in 1 second.

* Part of that may be the Java applet's inherent
slowness.

Java applet is 2-3 times slower than a program written in native
language.

Secondly servers are atleast 10 times faster than my old Desktop. So
GetClub is playing 20 times slow because of Hardware and my not
implementing the Parallel Processing.

Currently GetClub do not use the processing power of dual core and
Quad core.

OnceGetClubis improved 40 times It will be as strong as worlds
fastest Engine. (RYBKA)

* I don't know if Rybka is the fastest engine...
but it seems to be the strongest.

Yes many say Rybka is the fastest. Does anyone have Rybka Standalone?
Can you play on a Computer having Single core and tell how much slow
GetClub is to the Rybka.

Here is the way one may test.

Play a game setting 8 sec / move and play with Beginner If Game is
equal then Rybka and GetClub speed are same

Then play with Easy Level while Rybka with 8 sec / move. If game is
equal then Rybka is 4 times stronger.

Then play with Normal Level while Rybka with 8 sec / move. If game is
equal then Rybka is 16 times stronger.

Then play with Master Level while Rybka with 8 sec / move. If game is
equal then Rybka is 64 times stronger.


And I think Master Level will play as good as Rybka as acording to my
estimate Rybka is 40 times Stronger.

But the game I play that does calculation on a server. And servers are
10 times faster. Incase On same desktop Rybka gets 40 times stronger
that will be great for me to know.


Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html