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| Tags: easy, getclub, level, rybka |
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#1
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Yesterday again GetClub game was improved. Now it will play with
better strategy. I played a game against Rybka. Rybka took 40 moves to win the Easy Level. And it was only because of Tactics that Rybka win. Earlier Rybka used to get a Queen up rill end game comes. But now Rybka was just a Bishop up when end game came. Later it got the Queen and win. Rybka sacrificed its pawn and after 14 ply got a knight extra by piinning GetClub knight. It was a wonderful game. Game Played between sanjay11 and easy at GetClub.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rybka : (White) easy: (Black) Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...245&game=Chess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- White -- Black (Rybka ) -- (easy) 1. d2-d4{22} Ng8-f6{0} 2. c2-c4{20} e7-e6{0} 3. Nb1-c3{180} Bf8-b4{0} 4. Qd1-c2{10} d7-d5{0} 5. c4-d5{18} Qd8-d5{24} 6. Ng1-f3{14} Nf6-e4{32} 7. e2-e3{16} b7-b6{32} 8. Bf1-d3{14} f7-f5{40} 9. Ke1-g1{14} Bb4-c3{38} 10. b2-c3{10} Bc8-b7{34} 11. c3-c4{14} Qd5-d6{68} 12. c4-c5{18} b6-c5{34} 13. d4-c5{18} Ne4-c5{20} 14. Bc1-a3{20} Nb8-d7{28} 15. Bd3-b5{18} c7-c6{26} 16. Bb5-e2{28} Ke8-g8{66} 17. Ra1-c1{14} Ra8-d8{30} 18. Ba3-c5{18} Nd7-c5{38} 19. Qc2-c5{12} Qd6-c5{28} 20. Rc1-c5{18} Rd8-d5{22} 21. Rf1-c1{16} Kg8-h8{24} 22. Nf3-g5{12} Rf8-f6{34} 23. Rc5-d5{12} e6-d5{22} 24. Rc1-b1{16} h7-h6{32} 25. Rb1-b7{10} h6-g5{40} 26. Rb7-a7{12} Kh8-h7{24} 27. a2-a4{14} f5-f4{36} 28. a4-a5{10} f4-e3{54} 29. f2-e3{14} Rf6-e6{28} 30. Be2-d3{14} Kh7-h6{26} 31. Ra7-a8{26} g7-g6{40} 32. a5-a6{14} Re6-e7{30} 33. a6-a7{14} Re7-h7{20} 34. Bd3-a6{16} g5-g4{30} 35. Ba6-b7{16} g4-g3{80} 36. h2-g3{14} d5-d4{34} 37. Ra8-b8{12} Rh7-b7{30} 38. Rb8-b7{14} d4-e3{60} 39. Qa7-a8{Q}{14} e3-e2{38} 40. Qa8-f8{14} Kh6-g5{0} -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rybka : (White) easy: (Black) Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...245&game=Chess Yes, GetClub made a few tactical mistakes but I think there were no strategical mistakes. Rybka was having hard time in getting a plus position. GetClub developed its pieces and was attacking Rybka having white pieces. But through long calculations Rybka sacrificed its pawn and then pinned the Easy levels knight. Do you see any mistake in GetClubs game. Please note it is just Easy Level which played so good. So now Normal & Master Level are going to play much stronger games. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html |
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#2
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On May 24, 2:59 am, Sanny wrote:
Yesterday again GetClub game was improved. Now it will play with better strategy. I played a game against Rybka. Rybka took 40 moves to win the Easy Level. And it was only because of Tactics that Rybka win. Earlier Rybka used to get a Queen up rill end game comes. But now Rybka was just a Bishop up when end game came. Later it got the Queen and win. Rybka sacrificed its pawn and after 14 ply got a knight extra by piinning GetClub knight. It was a wonderful game. View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...245&game=Chess Yes, GetClub made a few tactical mistakes but I think there were no strategical mistakes. Rybka was having hard time in getting a plus position. In reality, Rybka seems to have considered the practically forced exchange of Bishop for Knight (on c3) to be a nice advantage in and of itself. GetClub developed its pieces and was attacking Rybka having white pieces. Not really. The "attack" on the Knight at c3 was easily defended. Even the hostile takeover of the e4 square came at a very high price: the weakening move ...p-f5. But through long calculations Rybka sacrificed its pawn and then pinned the Easy levels knight. Do you see any mistake in GetClubs game. Please note it is just Easy Level which played so good. So now Normal & Master Level are going to play much stronger games. The program -- once again -- neglected normal development, especially castling, in favor of moving the same pieces over and over, thinking it was attacking when in reality, the "attack" was /vacuous/. Since you seem to believe that lasting for many moves is a kind of moral victory (been there, done that!), I would suggest replacing the ...p-d5 idea with a more Queen's Indian style of defense, in which Black combines ...p-d6 and ...p-b6 with a Queen's Bishop fianchetto. The King's Bishop can simply be developed to e7 and there should be no difficulties in getting all the pieces out. Note that it is only natural that a premature attack by Black is effectively repelled, since White has the first move. It is difficult to imagine what sort of handicap would be appropriate here; if GetClub's Easy level thinks an average of, say, one minute per move, then Rybka is likely to overwhelm it by thinking for only seconds. A more level contest might be removing Rybka's QR, and then allowing it to think for just as long as the GetClub program; this requires tweaking the contempt factor properly, so Rybka will not play for a repetition or other draw before a real contest has ensued. -- help bot |
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#3
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* It is difficult to imagine what sort of handicap would be appropriate here; ifGetClub'sEasy level thinks an average of, say, one minute per move, then Rybka is likely to overwhelm it by thinking for only seconds. *A more level GetClub Easy Level thinks for 30 seconds and Rybka was thinking for 8 seconds / move. Easy Level was thinking 4 times more than Rybka. I think Rybka at 8 sec/move plays as good as Master Level. which makes a move in 5 min / move. So Rybka is 40 times Stronger than GetClub playing Strength. Rybka thinks in 1 second what GetClub thinks in 40 seconds. Have a game with Master Level and see if you find the improvement or not. Now I think Master Level will play as good game as Advance Level played yesterday. As today the game performance was increased 3-4 times than it was earlier. So now Master Level will play the same moves that Advancve level would play. And it would be very difficult for you to win the Advance level now as it will not allow you to form a Pawn Wall as you did in the last game. However you may score well against the Master Level. So I suggest you first play with Master Level and if you win the game then play with Advance Level. I am very happy to see a game improvement of 3-4 times in a single day because of your suggestions. Still GetClub needs 40 times improvements to get equal to Rybka. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html |
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#4
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Help Bot played with Master level and win the game in 64 moves.
Master Level was white but due to some error do not play the opening moves. Instead it played Nc3 as the forst move by Calculating. Still it gave good opposition to Help Bot. Help Bot 2 days back beat Advance Level but now the game has improved So It was difficult for him to get a quick win and he has to play till 64 moves to get a win. GetClub play a much strong game and I hope now Help Bot will play with Advance Level which will be very difficult for him to win as the game is much improved now. Game Played between help bot and master at GetClub.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- help bot: (Black) master: (White) Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...299&game=Chess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- White -- Black (master) -- (help bot) 1. Nb1-c3{370} d7-d5{10} 2. d2-d4{518} Bc8-f5{18} 3. Bc1-f4{402} e7-e6{16} 4. e2-e3{342} Ng8-f6{18} 5. Bf1-d3{426} Bf5-g6{52} 6. Ng1-f3{722} a7-a6{130} 7. Nf3-e5{502} Bg6-d3{22} 8. Qd1-d3{452} Nb8-d7{46} 9. Ke1-g1{632} Nd7-e5{66} 10. d4-e5{366} Nf6-h5{64} 11. g2-g4{370} Nh5-f4{52} 12. e3-f4{640} h7-h5{32} 13. g4-g5{442} g7-g6{16} 14. Rf1-d1{600} Bf8-e7{126} 15. Ra1-b1{336} Ke8-f8{148} 16. b2-b4{344} b7-b5{64} 17. Rb1-b2{458} Kf8-g7{38} 18. Qd3-d4{644} c7-c6{100} 19. f4-f5{466} g6-f5{86} 20. h2-h4{410} a6-a5{78} 21. a2-a3{392} a5-b4{96} 22. a3-b4{588} Ra8-a6{84} 23. Rb2-b3{440} Qd8-a8{36} 24. Nc3-e2{586} Ra6-a2{72} 25. Qd4-c3{414} Kg7-f8{208} 26. Ne2-d4{474} Ra2-a6{42} 27. Rb3-b1{766} Kf8-e8{30} 28. Rb1-a1{392} Ke8-d7{78} 29. Ra1-a6{392} Qa8-a6{6} 30. Rd1-d3{414} Rh8-c8{92} 31. Qc3-b2{562} Rc8-a8{64} 32. Kg1-h2{352} Qa6-a2{82} 33. Qb2-c1{506} Qa2-a1{86} 34. Qc1-a1{448} Ra8-a1{16} 35. c2-c3{370} Ra1-a3{74} 36. Kh2-g3{550} Be7-d8{176} 37. f2-f3{374} Bd8-c7{60} 38. f3-f4{434} Bc7-b6{46} 39. Nd4-c2{348} Ra3-a2{60} 40. Nc2-e3{410} Bb6-e3{122} 41. Rd3-e3{550} c6-c5{56} 42. b4-c5{666} Kd7-c6{84} 43. Kg3-f3{414} Kc6-c5{38} 44. Re3-d3{742} Kc5-c4{56} 45. Rd3-d1{450} Ra2-a3{66} 46. Rd1-d4{356} Kc4-c3{38} 47. Rd4-d1{486} b5-b4{88} 48. Kf3-e2{682} Ra3-a2{40} 49. Ke2-e3{612} b4-b3{30} 50. Rd1-d3{404} Kc3-c4{82} 51. Rd3-d4{430} Kc4-c5{44} 52. Rd4-d1{380} b3-b2{416} 53. Rd1-b1{400} Kc5-c4{42} 54. g5-g6{444} Kc4-c3{42} 55. g6-g7{424} Ra2-a8{52} 56. Rb1-f1{402} Ra8-g8{20} 57. Ke3-f2{536} Kc3-c2{22} 58. Kf2-f3{430} Qb2-b1{Q}{24} 59. Rf1-b1{342} Kc2-b1{10} 60. Kf3-f2{484} Kb1-c2{26} 61. Kf2-g2{478} d5-d4{78} 62. Kg2-g3{598} d4-d3{92} 63. Kg3-g2{324} d3-d2{12} 64. Kg2-h2{4} -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- help bot: (Black) master: (White) Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...299&game=Chess What were the moves by GetClub that were not good and could have been avoided. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html |
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#5
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On May 26, 5:01 am, Sanny wrote:
Help Bot played with Master level and win the game in 64 moves. Master Level was white but due to some error do not play the opening moves. Instead it played Nc3 as the forst move by Calculating. Still it gave good opposition to Help Bot. Help Bot 2 days back beat Advance Level but now the game has improved So It was difficult for him to get a quick win and he has to play till 64 moves to get a win. Against computers it is not a good idea to play for a "quick win". In fact, I made no attempt to try and win *quickly*, apart from my usual dread of the never-ending battle in which I die of old age in mid-game. GetClub play a much strong game and I hope now Help Bot will play with Advance Level which will be very difficult for him to win as the game is much improved now. It is interesting how the program can be "improved" dramatically so many, many, many, many times. Game Played between help bot and master at GetClub.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- help bot: (Black) master: (White) Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...299&game=Chess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- White -- Black (master) -- (help bot) View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...299&game=Chess What were the moves by GetClub that were not good and could have been avoided. I ran this through a computer analysis, and if we ignore the smaller things and try to focus on just the really big mistakes... Nothing much happened in the first ten moves, during which White had a small edge. Move 11. g4 turned things around, and now Black got an advantage due to White's exposed King. The computer did not like my moves-- ....g6, ...Kf8, and has it *level* at move 15. Obviously, p-f5 threw away a pawn, and Black has the advantage as a result-- unless White can whip up an attack on the Black King. Again, the computer rejected my King maneuver back to the center in favor of sharp tactics involving the sacrifice of pawns; now we are back to about even. Now, I missed a nice, *simple* tactical shot: 28. ... Kd7?? 29. Rxa6 Qxa6 30. Nxf5!, and White is on top. But instead, the Master level played 30. Rd3-- missing an obvious tactic. From that point forward, White gained no counterattack on the Black King and thus was doomed to lose. My advantage grew and grew, until at last it was so large that even when I failed to see that White had advanced his g- pawn, it made no real difference! I mistakenly assumed that White must have moved his King, since I detected no significant change in position, but in fact White had played p-g6! Just as I had expected, in the endgame it is no-contest; my vastly superior understanding overwhelmed the program (although I missed a simple tactical shot earlier!). -- help bot |
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#6
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help bot wrote:
On May 26, 5:01 am, Sanny wrote: Help Bot played with Master level and win the game in 64 moves. Master Level was white but due to some error do not play the opening moves. Instead it played Nc3 as the forst move by Calculating. Still it gave good opposition to Help Bot. Odd that it likes Nc3. Looks suspiciously like it thinks defending the Q is a benefit of this move (a quirk it shares with an old VAX chess prog).. Help Bot 2 days back beat Advance Level but now the game has improved So It was difficult for him to get a quick win and he has to play till 64 moves to get a win. Against computers it is not a good idea to play for a "quick win". In fact, I made no attempt to try and win *quickly*, apart from my usual dread of the never-ending battle in which I die of old age in mid-game. GetClub play a much strong game and I hope now Help Bot will play with Advance Level which will be very difficult for him to win as the game is much improved now. It is interesting how the program can be "improved" dramatically so many, many, many, many times. It was not doing to badly though and it might even have had you if it had spotted either or the *two* viable continuations at move 30. Now, I missed a nice, *simple* tactical shot: 28. ... Kd7?? 29. Rxa6 Qxa6 30. Nxf5!, and White is on top. But instead, the Master level played 30. Rd3-- missing an obvious tactic. Rd3 isn't just missing an obvious tactic it is miles off the pace. Rd3 ranked 20/35. More than half of all the moves are better! But only two really stand out. Shredder looked at this position overnight and confirmed my instinct that Ra1! was the clearest win followed by Nxf5 and with g6 just about holding a draw (nothing else is viable). Nxf5 is the one I would expect a computer to go for since it gets to snatch material for free. Needs ony a few plys to find and it would have put it ahead. Why did the program ignore this obvious move? Moreover it could also have played the even more aggressive Ra1 attacking blacks Q and claiming the open QR file to break into your side of the board. From that point forward, White gained no counterattack on the Black King and thus was doomed to lose. My advantage grew and grew, Indeed it does seem to lose the plot completely in the endgame. To be fair I think the program has improved. It very nearly had you in this game (and if it had been properly tactically aware at move 30 it should have won). That is a big change from slowly but inexorably losing (which was most often the case in earlier incarnations). Regards, Martin Brown ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
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#7
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* Just as I had expected, in the endgame it is
no-contest; my vastly superior understanding overwhelmed the program (although I missed a simple tactical shot earlier!). Yes you play better than Advance Level and Master Level was playing with the strength of Advance Level. So I think now you should try the Advance Level as you qualified the Master Level. Lets see if Advance level can bend you or not. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html |
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#8
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help bot wrote:
On May 26, 5:01 am, Sanny wrote: Help Bot played with Master level and win the game in 64 moves. Master Level was white but due to some error do not play the opening moves. Instead it played Nc3 as the forst move by Calculating. Still it gave good opposition to Help Bot. Odd that it likes Nc3. Looks suspiciously like it thinks defending the Q is a benefit of this move (a quirk it shares with an old VAX chess prog).. Help Bot 2 days back beat Advance Level but now the game has improved So It was difficult for him to get a quick win and he has to play till 64 moves to get a win. Against computers it is not a good idea to play for a "quick win". In fact, I made no attempt to try and win *quickly*, apart from my usual dread of the never-ending battle in which I die of old age in mid-game. GetClub play a much strong game and I hope now Help Bot will play with Advance Level which will be very difficult for him to win as the game is much improved now. It is interesting how the program can be "improved" dramatically so many, many, many, many times. It was not doing to badly though and it might even have had you if it had spotted either or the *two* viable continuations at move 30. Now, I missed a nice, *simple* tactical shot: 28. ... Kd7?? 29. Rxa6 Qxa6 30. Nxf5!, and White is on top. But instead, the Master level played 30. Rd3-- missing an obvious tactic. Rd3 isn't just missing an obvious tactic it is miles off the pace. Rd3 ranked 20/35. More than half of all the moves are better! But only two really stand out. Shredder looked at this position overnight and confirmed my instinct that Ra1! was the clearest win followed by Nxf5 and with g6 just about holding a draw (nothing else is viable). Nxf5 is the one I would expect a computer to go for since it gets to snatch material for free. Needs ony a few plys to find and it would have put it ahead. Why did the program ignore this obvious move? Moreover it could also have played the even more aggressive Ra1 attacking blacks Q and claiming the open QR file to break into your side of the board. From that point forward, White gained no counterattack on the Black King and thus was doomed to lose. My advantage grew and grew, Indeed it does seem to lose the plot completely in the endgame. To be fair I think the program has improved. It very nearly had you in this game (and if it had been properly tactically aware at move 30 it should have won). That is a big change from slowly but inexorably losing (which was most often the case in earlier incarnations). Regards, Martin Brown (apologies if this appears twce the first via Teranews vanished into the ether) |
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#9
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To be fair I think the program has improved. It very nearly had you in
this game (and if it had been properly tactically aware at move 30 it should have won). That is a big change from slowly but inexorably losing (which was most often the case in earlier incarnations). Here is another game between Help Bot and Normal Level. I do not understand why in 18th move Normal Level do not take the Rook with Bishop instead it took a Pawn? Game Played between help bot and normal at GetClub.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- help bot: (Black) normal: (White) Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...335&game=Chess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- White -- Black (normal) -- (help bot) 1. e2-e4{0} c7-c5{12} 2. Ng1-f3{0} Ng8-f6{8} 3. e4-e5{164} Nf6-d5{10} 4. Nb1-c3{198} Nd5-c3{38} 5. d2-c3{214} g7-g6{62} 6. Bf1-c4{80} Nb8-c6{26} 7. Bc1-f4{84} Bf8-g7{24} 8. Qd1-d3{126} Ke8-g8{28} 9. Ke1-g1{108} a7-a6{78} 10. Rf1-d1{104} b7-b6{126} 11. a2-a3{340} Ra8-a7{90} 12. Ra1-b1{304} Qd8-c7{108} 13. Qd3-e4{172} e7-e6{110} 14. Rd1-d6{136} Nc6-e7{158} 15. Nf3-h4{156} b6-b5{88} 16. Bc4-b3{134} c5-c4{174} 17. Bf4-e3{92} c4-b3{64} 18. c2-b3{84} Ra7-b7{100} {It should have taken the Rook with Bishop.} 19. Rb1-d1{88} Ne7-c6{120} 20. Nh4-f3{86} Nc6-e7{176} 21. g2-g4{110} Rb7-b8{154} 22. Nf3-g5{126} h7-h6{100} 23. Ng5-f3{106} Bc8-b7{42} 24. Qe4-f4{80} Ne7-d5{198} 25. Rd1-d5{110} Bb7-d5{74} 26. Kg1-f1{96} Bd5-f3{198} 27. Qf4-f3{190} Bg7-e5{78} 28. Rd6-a6{112} Be5-g7{80} 29. Be3-f4{108} Qc7-b7{46} 30. Qf3-b7{134} Rb8-b7{10} 31. Bf4-d6{144} Rf8-c8{32} 32. Kf1-g1{158} Kg8-h7{58} 33. Bd6-f4{122} Rc8-c6{38} 34. Ra6-a8{100} f7-f5{48} 35. g4-f5{118} g6-f5{12} 36. Ra8-e8{106} Kh7-g6{62} 37. h2-h3{180} Kg6-f7{20} 38. Re8-d8{158} e6-e5{40} 39. Bf4-e3{142} Bg7-f6{52} 40. Rd8-a8{120} Bf6-g5{54} 41. Kg1-g2{102} f5-f4{22} 42. Ra8-a7{134} f4-e3{76} 43. Ra7-b7{104} e3-e2{28} 44. f2-f4{92} Qe2-e1{Q}{32} 45. f4-g5{146} Rc6-g6{36} 46. Rb7-d7{108} Kf7-e6{10} 47. h3-h4{110} Ke6-d7{14} 48. b3-b4{210} Kd7-e6{34} 49. Kg2-f3{234} Ke6-f5{20} 50. Kf3-g2{16} -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- help bot: (Black) normal: (White) Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...335&game=Chess Why Normal Level took Knight giving its Rook in 24th move? It looks like Normal Level is doing a lot of calculation mistakes. What do you think? Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html |
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#10
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On May 28, 8:00 am, Martin Brown
wrote: Odd that it likes Nc3. Looks suspiciously like it thinks defending the Q is a benefit of this move (a quirk it shares with an old VAX chess prog).. Wait a second there... if you disable the openings book of many strong chess programs, they too will "like" 1. Nc3, which is held in somewhat low regard by theory. I don't think you can leap to conclusions regarding faulty programming, once you consider this fact. It was not doing to badly though and it might even have had you if it had spotted either or the *two* viable continuations at move 30. Now, I missed a nice, *simple* tactical shot: 28. ... Kd7?? 29. Rxa6 Qxa6 30. Nxf5!, and White is on top. But instead, the Master level played 30. Rd3-- missing an obvious tactic. Rd3 isn't just missing an obvious tactic it is miles off the pace. Rd3 ranked 20/35. More than half of all the moves are better! When the pawns are locked up like this, many moves are not material-losing blunders and so it is easy to select a sub-optimal one. What I don't understand is how the Master level could miss a simple tactical shot; in fact, my only explanation as to why *I* missed it is the switching back and forth between different tasks, for it's pretty darned obvious. Sanny's program still has serious difficulties with elementary tactics, even on the higher levels. My guess is that any of the old tabletop Fidelity Chess Challenger computers would have spotted this easily, because they handled tactics correctly. Moreover it could also have played the even more aggressive Ra1 attacking blacks Q and claiming the open QR file to break into your side of the board. In my own computer analysis, the computer thought *I* should have sacrificed material to break into the fifth rank with a Rook, targeting the h4 pawn and the enemy King-- an attack I never even considered. In fact, I was focused on the possibility of an attack on my own King via N-f4 and Q-f3, doubling up on the h5 pawn. To be fair I think the program has improved. It very nearly had you in this game (and if it had been properly tactically aware at move 30 it should have won). That is a big change from slowly but inexorably losing (which was most often the case in earlier incarnations). In several earlier games it very nearly had me, and a couple of those ended up being declared "wins" for the program, which could make no headway whatever. In this game I allowed a bunch of even piece trades, figuring I could win in the endgame -- even a fairly simple one -- due to the programming laws which invariably surface and are then declared "fixed" by Sanny the next day or so. I have confidence that such problems are not really fixed at all, and that they in fact are what maked me the superior chess player overall. :D -- help bot |
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| We Are Your All GetClub All The Time Newsgroup!!! GetClub GetClub GetClub GetClub GetClub! | The tired of GetClub club | rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) | 23 | February 28th 08 07:24 PM |
| We Are Your All GetClub All The Time Newsgroup!!! GetClub GetClub GetClub GetClub GetClub! | The tired of GetClub club | alt.chess (Alternative Chess Group) | 19 | February 28th 08 07:24 PM |