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Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 29th 08, 07:53 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
Sanny
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Posts: 5,365
Default Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot

Help Bot played 1. e4 and GetClub replied by 1....d5

Is this opening wrong as when Help Bot took the pawn (d5) there was no
way to recover that pawn.

Should I remove this opening:

1. e2-e4 d7-d5
2. e4xd5 Ng8-f6

Is 2.... Nf6 wrong move? or 1.... d5 itself was wrong?

Should it have played 2.... Qxd5 to take the pawn immidietly?

Please suggest if this opening should be removed from GetClub
database?


Game Played between help bot and master at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
master: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...976&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(help bot) -- (master)

1. e2-e4{12} d7-d5{0}
2. e4xd5{4} Ng8-f6{0}
3. Bf1-b5{28} Bc8-d7{898}
4. Bb5-c4{34} b7-b5{366}
5. Bc4-b3{40} Bd7-f5{514}
6. Qd1-e2{58} a7-a6{528}
7. a2-a4{138} b5-b4{408}
8. c2-c4{80} b4-c3{398}
9. Nb1-c3{22} g7-g6{438}
10. Ng1-f3{86} Bf8-h6{2450}
11. Ke1-g1{76} Bh6-f4{1548}
12. Rf1-e1{64} Bf4-d6{602}
13. d2-d3{62} h7-h5{612}
14. Bc1-g5{76} Nb8-d7{472}
15. Bb3-c4{56} Ke8-g8{574}
16. h2-h3{56} Nd7-b6{1156}
17. a4-a5{54} Nb6-c4{558}
18. d3-c4{28} c7-c5{640}
19. d5-c6{90} Qd8-b8{678}
20. Nc3-d5{66} Nf6-d5{366}
21. c4-d5{98} Qb8-b3{762}
22. Re1-d1{110} Rf8-b8{688}
23. Bg5-e3{226} Qb3-b2{664}
24. Qe2-b2{60} Rb8-b2{674}
25. Nf3-d2{1464} Rb2-b5{840}
26. Nd2-c4{102} Bf5-e4{346}
27. Nc4-b6{64} Ra8-b8{870}
28. f2-f3{144} Be4-f5{996}
29. g2-g4{12} h5-g4{420}
30. h3-g4{2094} Bf5-c8{2662}
31. Rd1-b1{154} Rb5-b1{664}
32. Ra1-b1{178} f7-f6{558}
33. Rb1-d1{258} g6-g5{1106}
34. Kg1-f2{56} Kg8-h7{1966}
35. Rd1-c1{102} Bd6-c7{814}
36. Be3-c5{96} Kh7-g7{980}
37. Nb6-c8{56} Rb8-c8{386}
38. Bc5-e7{30} Kg7-f7{746}
39. Be7-b4{86} Bc7-f4{1038}
40. Rc1-c4{40} Bf4-e5{640}
41. d5-d6{504} Kf7-e6{928}
42. d6-d7{102} Rc8-h8{1322}
43. Kf2-e3{94} Be5-f4{1240}
44. Rc4-f4{106} g5-f4{844}
45. Ke3-f4{70} Rh8-b8{1300}
46. Bb4-c5{32} Rb8-g8{576}
47. Bc5-b6{66} Ke6-e7{494}
48. Qd7-d8{Q}{42} Rg8-d8{392}
49. Bb6-d8{26} Ke7-d8{770}
50. Kf4-f5{20} Kd8-c7{2038}
51. Kf5-f6{8} Kc7-d6{1312}
52. g4-g5{28} Kd6-c6{886}
53. g5-g6{6} Kc6-b5{678}
54. g6-g7{10} Kb5-a5{882}
55. Qg7-g8{Q}{12} Ka5-b5{1130}
56. Kf6-e5{20} Kb5-b6{1776}
57. Ke5-d5{28} Kb6-c7{30}
58. Qg8-e6{32} Kc7-b7{16}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
master: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...976&game=Chess

Since Help Bot was a pawn up in the opening he easily get the Queen
after exchanging all the pieces.

Despite being Master Level it lost as it played a wrong opening.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
  #2  
Old September 29th 08, 08:51 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
Alessandro J.
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Posts: 140
Default Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot

On 29 Set, 07:53, Sanny wrote:
Help Bot played 1. e4 and GetClub replied by 1....d5

Is this opening wrong as when Help Bot took the pawn (d5) there was no
way to recover that pawn.

Should I remove this opening:

1. e2-e4 d7-d5
2. e4xd5 Ng8-f6

Is 2.... Nf6 wrong move? or 1.... d5 itself was wrong?


Ray Keene, in his excellent " Opening Repertoire for the attacking
player " roundly condems this defense as inferior, and you would do
well to eliminate it from getclub's repertoire.



Should it have played 2.... Qxd5 to take the pawn immidietly?

Please suggest if this opening should be removed from GetClub
database?


Why not go the whole length and program the whole of " Opening
repertoire for the attacking player " into getclub, or maybe some of
the repertoire choices of renowned theoretician Eric Schiller ?

We would then have Opening play worthy of your program, and maybe you
can start posting questions about the finer points of getclub's
strategical play.


  #3  
Old September 29th 08, 12:09 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
samsloan
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Posts: 14,869
Default Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot

On Sep 29, 2:51*am, "Alessandro J." wrote:
On 29 Set, 07:53, Sanny wrote:

Help Bot played 1. e4 and GetClub replied by 1....d5


Is this opening wrong as when Help Bot took the pawn (d5) there was no
way to recover that pawn.


Should I remove this opening:


1. e2-e4 d7-d5
2. e4xd5 Ng8-f6


Is 2.... Nf6 wrong move? or 1.... d5 itself was wrong?



I made my living playing the black side of this opening for years back
when nobody else was playing it.

The main line went 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. f3
Bf5 and now black can usually recover the pawn with Nbd7, Nb6 and
Nxd5.

However, in 1964 I lost a tournament game to William Haines in a Kolty
tournament in Oakland, California. Haines played 6. g4. After that
loss, I more or less stopped playing this line.

I would not recommend this line for a computer program. I think that
the ideas behind this opening would be too difficult for a computer.

Sam Sloan
  #4  
Old September 29th 08, 12:59 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
help bot
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Posts: 9,302
Default Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot

On Sep 29, 6:09*am, samsloan wrote:


I made my living playing the black side of this opening for years back
when nobody else was playing it.

The main line went 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. f3
Bf5 and now black can usually recover the pawn with Nbd7, Nb6 and
Nxd5.

However, in 1964 I lost a tournament game to William Haines in a Kolty
tournament in Oakland, California. Haines played 6. g4. After that
loss, I more or less stopped playing this line.

I would not recommend this line for a computer program. I think that
the ideas behind this opening would be too difficult for a computer.



Many years ago, I ran up against this line while
playing blitz chess against a fellow named Phil
Degan. He played a number of very annoying
hyper-modern defenses like this one, poking
holes in my mishandling of certain positions...
(but I was a bit quicker and more alert, and won,
more often than not).

Now that Mr. Sloan no longer plays this line, is
he able to divulge his source-- perhaps an old
book by Weaver Adams or Ken Smith, a Black
to Play and Win type pamphlet?

In my game against GetClub's Master level,

http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...976&game=Chess

I over-reached by attempting to hold the extra
pawn with 8. c4; after a reply such as ...c6,
we get a classic example of "boy, do I look
dumb, and greedy".

Black's maneuver ...g6, ...Bh6, ...Bf4, ...Bd6
lost around three thousand tempi, and his
later 18. ...c5 was a terrible move.

Surprisingly, Rybka says I could have safely
captured a pawn with 23. Bxe7!! -- exploiting
the fact that Black's Queen is "exposed" such
that the obvious pin, 23. ...Re8 does not quite
work. Of course, it takes all of 0.03 seconds
for Rybka to calculate all of the possibilities,
while I might require just a tad longer.


-- help bot


  #5  
Old September 29th 08, 03:53 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,248
Default Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot

On Sep 29, 1:53*am, Sanny wrote:
Help Bot played 1. e4 and GetClub replied by 1....d5

Is this opening wrong as when Help Bot took the pawn (d5) there was no
way to recover that pawn.


That is clearly not true; as you yourself note, the pawn can be
immediately recovered by 2...Qxd5.

Should I remove this opening:

1. e2-e4 d7-d5
2. e4xd5 Ng8-f6

Is 2.... Nf6 wrong move? or 1.... d5 itself was wrong?

Should it have played 2.... Qxd5 to take the pawn immidietly?


This is a well-established, standard opening called the Scandinavian
Defense or Center Counter Defense. There are two main lines, 2...Qxd5
and 2...Nf6. The former, after 3.Nc3, branches into three main
variations: 3...Qa5, 3...Qd8, and 3...Qd6. The 2...Nf6 line has more
variations, depending on how White replies. If White holds on to the
pawn with 3.c4, it perforce becomes a gambit, either by 3...c6
(Scandinavian Gambit) or 3...e6 (Icelandic Gambit).
  #6  
Old September 30th 08, 10:01 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
Sanny
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Posts: 5,365
Default Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot

* Black's maneuver ...g6, ...Bh6, ...Bf4, ...Bd6
lost around three thousand tempi, and his
later 18. ...c5 was a terrible move.


It played those move to bring Bishop in the center.

What were the moves it should have played otherwise?

Today Zebediah too win the Master Level. by getting a Pawn extra in
opening. Now I have taught 2 openings So that in future it knows what
to play in such cases.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
  #7  
Old September 30th 08, 10:03 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
Sanny
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Posts: 5,365
Default Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot

* This is a well-established, standard opening called the Scandinavian
Defense or Center Counter Defense. There are two main lines, 2...Qxd5
and 2...Nf6. The former, after 3.Nc3, branches into three main
variations: 3...Qa5, 3...Qd8, and 3...Qd6. The 2...Nf6 line has more
variations, depending on how White replies. If White holds on to the
pawn with 3.c4, it perforce becomes a gambit, either by 3...c6
(Scandinavian Gambit) or 3...e6 (Icelandic Gambit).


I have added the new opening So GetClub will play safe moves till
first 6 moves.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

  #8  
Old September 30th 08, 10:32 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
help bot
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Posts: 9,302
Default Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot

On Sep 30, 4:01*am, Sanny wrote:

* Black's maneuver ...g6, ...Bh6, ...Bf4, ...Bd6
lost around three thousand tempi, and his
later 18. ...c5 was a terrible move.


It played those move to bring Bishop in the center.

What were the moves it should have played otherwise?


http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...976&game=Chess

Well, I've been looking at a lot of other games since
then, so I no longer have a crystal-clear picture of
this one. But generally speaking, you can't spend
that many moves to develop just one piece in the
opening.

It is customary to play ...Bg7 after the move ...g6
(although there may be rare exceptions where the
Bishop is better placed on h6).

Just remember that if Black is taking four moves
to develop one piece, White may very well get his
pieces developed and castle and while Black then
tries to prepare to castle, White can launch an
attack. Many of my games show the GetClub
program delaying castling... almost as if it got a
bonus for waiting as long as possible.

In this game, I had an opportunity to grab the e7
pawn with my Bishop, winning. I declined because
of the reply ...Re8, pinning my Bishop to my Queen;
but looking deeper, Rybka sees that after that I can
play Nd4, and the White Queen has no "safe"
square to flee-- dark squares allow me to reply
Bxd6!, when both Queens will be under attack. I
had some doubts as to the win-ability of this Rook
ending, but sure enough, White clearly prevails. I
guess when you're a 3000+ rated computer, this
sort of deep calculation is as easy as chopping
carrots.


-- help bot


  #9  
Old September 30th 08, 10:37 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
help bot
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Posts: 9,302
Default Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot

On Sep 30, 4:03*am, Sanny wrote:

* This is a well-established, standard opening called the Scandinavian
Defense or Center Counter Defense. There are two main lines, 2...Qxd5
and 2...Nf6. The former, after 3.Nc3, branches into three main
variations: 3...Qa5, 3...Qd8, and 3...Qd6. The 2...Nf6 line has more
variations, depending on how White replies. If White holds on to the
pawn with 3.c4, it perforce becomes a gambit, either by 3...c6
(Scandinavian Gambit) or 3...e6 (Icelandic Gambit).


I have added the new opening So GetClub will play safe moves till
first 6 moves.



One interesting ploy would be to have the program
play ...d5, ...Qxd5, and ...Qe5+ to trick the human
opponents into thinking they are playing a complete
duffer. Then of course you begin playing decent-
looking moves, and exploit their over-zealous
attempts to "refute" those silly-looking Queen
moves. For instance:

1. e4 d5

2. ed Qxd5

3. Nc3 Qe5+

4. Be2 c6


-- help bot


  #10  
Old October 1st 08, 10:07 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
Sanny
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Posts: 5,365
Default Is this opening wrong? by Help Bot

* One interesting ploy would be to have the program
play ...d5, ...Qxd5, and ...Qe5+ to trick the human
opponents into thinking they are playing a complete
duffer. * Then of course you begin playing decent-
looking moves, and exploit their over-zealous
attempts to "refute" those silly-looking Queen
moves. *For instance:

*1. e4 *d5

*2. ed *Qxd5

*3. Nc3 *Qe5+

*4. Be2 *c6


I have given heavy penalty for any Queen move. Otherwise GetClub keeps
playing its Queen from here and there till it gets trapped by pawns.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


 




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