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Is this the French or a King's Gambit??



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 1st 04, 02:44 AM
Who cares anyway
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Default Is this the French or a King's Gambit??

I played a game on ICC today as black where I got rather lost in the
opening. Following 1. e4, I played 1...e6 with the intension of
playing the French Defence. But my opponent did not reply with the
usual 2. d4, but instead 2. f4, which rather took me by surprise.
Afterwards he did not seem too keen to discuss the game (despite he
won), but said it was the King's gambit. Yet when I stuck the game
into scid, it comes up with some French Variation I've never heard of.

"French: Labourdonnais variation"

My guess that since it's 1. e4 e6, it is the French. But he just said
it was the King's Gambit, and made no further comment. My higest ever
rating on ICC has only been 1421 and him 1511, so both of us are weak
players.

I'd be interested in any comments on the game from Black's
perspective. Looking at a database of games, it seems my second move
was probably wrong, so I was not off to a good start.

[Event "ICC 60 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2004.06.30"]
[Round "-"]
[White "gilalva"]
[Black "g8wrb"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ICCResult "Black resigns"]
[WhiteElo "1319"]
[BlackElo "1368"]
[Opening "French: Labourdonnais variation"]
[ECO "C00"]
[NIC "FR.01"]
[Time "19:31:25"]
[TimeControl "3600+0"]

1. e4 e6 2. f4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 exf4 5. d4 d5 6. e5 Nh5 7. Be2 g6
8. O-O
Nc6 9. Bb5 Be6 10. Ne1 Qg5 11. Nf3 Qg4 12. h3 Qg3 13. Ne2 Qxh3 14.
gxh3 Bxh3
15. Rf2 Be7 16. Nxf4 Bg4 17. Nxh5 gxh5 18. Qd3 Rg8 19. Kh2 O-O-O 20.
Bxc6
bxc6 21. Qa6+ Kd7 22. e6+ fxe6 23. Ne5+ Kd6 24. Nf7+ Kd7 25. Nxd8 Bxd8
26.
Bf4 {Black resigns} 1-0
  #2  
Old July 1st 04, 02:52 AM
David Bohm
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Posts: n/a
Default Is this the French or a King's Gambit??

I put the game in ChessBase and it classifies the game as C29= Vienna
gambit, Kaufmann variation.

David Bohm

"Who cares anyway" wrote in message
om...
I played a game on ICC today as black where I got rather lost in the
opening. Following 1. e4, I played 1...e6 with the intension of
playing the French Defence. But my opponent did not reply with the
usual 2. d4, but instead 2. f4, which rather took me by surprise.
Afterwards he did not seem too keen to discuss the game (despite he
won), but said it was the King's gambit. Yet when I stuck the game
into scid, it comes up with some French Variation I've never heard of.

"French: Labourdonnais variation"

My guess that since it's 1. e4 e6, it is the French. But he just said
it was the King's Gambit, and made no further comment. My higest ever
rating on ICC has only been 1421 and him 1511, so both of us are weak
players.

I'd be interested in any comments on the game from Black's
perspective. Looking at a database of games, it seems my second move
was probably wrong, so I was not off to a good start.

[Event "ICC 60 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2004.06.30"]
[Round "-"]
[White "gilalva"]
[Black "g8wrb"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ICCResult "Black resigns"]
[WhiteElo "1319"]
[BlackElo "1368"]
[Opening "French: Labourdonnais variation"]
[ECO "C00"]
[NIC "FR.01"]
[Time "19:31:25"]
[TimeControl "3600+0"]

1. e4 e6 2. f4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 exf4 5. d4 d5 6. e5 Nh5 7. Be2 g6
8. O-O
Nc6 9. Bb5 Be6 10. Ne1 Qg5 11. Nf3 Qg4 12. h3 Qg3 13. Ne2 Qxh3 14.
gxh3 Bxh3
15. Rf2 Be7 16. Nxf4 Bg4 17. Nxh5 gxh5 18. Qd3 Rg8 19. Kh2 O-O-O 20.
Bxc6
bxc6 21. Qa6+ Kd7 22. e6+ fxe6 23. Ne5+ Kd6 24. Nf7+ Kd7 25. Nxd8 Bxd8
26.
Bf4 {Black resigns} 1-0



  #3  
Old July 1st 04, 11:05 AM
bruno de baenst
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Posts: n/a
Default Is this the French or a King's Gambit??

[Event "ICC 60 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2004.06.30"]
[Round "-"]
[White "gilalva"]
[Black "g8wrb"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ICCResult "Black resigns"]
[WhiteElo "1319"]
[BlackElo "1368"]
[Opening "French: Labourdonnais variation"]
[ECO "C00"]
[NIC "FR.01"]
[Time "19:31:25"]
[TimeControl "3600+0"]

1. e4 e6 2. f4?! (french:labourdonnais) Nf6?! 3. Nc3 e5?? (transposed to

vienna game with tempo less for black cause pawn on e5 used 2 tempo to get
there) 4. Nf3?? (fxe4 wins pawn) exf4 5. d4 d5 6. e5 Nh5 7. Be2 g6? (looks
bad)
8. O-O
Nc6 9. Bb5? (Ne1 probably better) Be6 10. Ne1 Qg5 11. Nf3 Qg4?? loses

queen 12. h3! Qg3 13. Ne2 Qxh3 14.
gxh3 Bxh3
15. Rf2 Be7 16. Nxf4 Bg4 17. Nxh5 gxh5 18. Qd3 Rg8 19. Kh2 O-O-O 20.
Bxc6
bxc6 21. Qa6+ Kd7 22. e6+! fxe6 23. Ne5+ Kd6 24. Nf7+? (Qxc6++ is mate)

Kd7 25. Nxd8 Bxd8
26.
Bf4 {Black resigns} 1-0



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  #4  
Old July 1st 04, 03:44 PM
Dr. David Kirkby
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Posts: n/a
Default Is this the French or a King's Gambit??

"bruno de baenst" wrote in message ...
[Event "ICC 60 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2004.06.30"]
[Round "-"]
[White "gilalva"]
[Black "g8wrb"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ICCResult "Black resigns"]
[WhiteElo "1319"]
[BlackElo "1368"]
[Opening "French: Labourdonnais variation"]
[ECO "C00"]
[NIC "FR.01"]
[Time "19:31:25"]
[TimeControl "3600+0"]

1. e4 e6 2. f4?! (french:labourdonnais) Nf6?! 3. Nc3 e5?? (transposed to

vienna game with tempo less for black cause pawn on e5 used 2 tempo to get
there) 4. Nf3?? (fxe4 wins pawn)


Thanks a lot. This begs the question "How does one casify games?"

If a game starts as a an XXX but transposes to a YY, should the ECO
code match the XX or the YY? Should database programs, such as Scid
and Chessbase clasify the game as XXX or YY? Scid clearly choose to
say this was a French, but you say after e5?? it transposes to the
Vienna Game. According to another posts, chessbase classifies this as
"C29= Vienna gambit, Kaufmann variation."

Is scid wrong to clasify the game as a French Opening, when clearly it
does start 1. e4 e6, but later transposes into something quite
different.

I'm just interested in what is 'normal practice' in such situations.

Dr. David Kirkby

(the same person who started this thread, despite the fact the email
address is probably different.)
  #5  
Old July 1st 04, 06:22 PM
Avanti
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is this the French or a King's Gambit??


"Who cares anyway" wrote in message
om...
I played a game on ICC today as black where I got rather lost in the
opening. Following 1. e4, I played 1...e6 with the intension of
playing the French Defence. But my opponent did not reply with the
usual 2. d4, but instead 2. f4, which rather took me by surprise.
Afterwards he did not seem too keen to discuss the game (despite he
won), but said it was the King's gambit. Yet when I stuck the game
into scid, it comes up with some French Variation I've never heard of.


1e4 e6
is the french,
2f4? d5

just ignore the odd moves, out of book against the french is usually
equality or a lead for black.


  #6  
Old July 1st 04, 07:29 PM
Richard Stanz
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Posts: n/a
Default Is this the French or a King's Gambit??

(Dr. David Kirkby) wrote in message . com...
"bruno de baenst" wrote in message ...
[Event "ICC 60 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2004.06.30"]
[Round "-"]
[White "gilalva"]
[Black "g8wrb"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ICCResult "Black resigns"]
[WhiteElo "1319"]
[BlackElo "1368"]
[Opening "French: Labourdonnais variation"]
[ECO "C00"]
[NIC "FR.01"]
[Time "19:31:25"]
[TimeControl "3600+0"]

1. e4 e6 2. f4?! (french:labourdonnais) Nf6?! 3. Nc3 e5?? (transposed to

vienna game with tempo less for black cause pawn on e5 used 2 tempo to get
there) 4. Nf3?? (fxe4 wins pawn)


Thanks a lot. This begs the question "How does one casify games?"

If a game starts as a an XXX but transposes to a YY, should the ECO
code match the XX or the YY? Should database programs, such as Scid
and Chessbase clasify the game as XXX or YY? Scid clearly choose to
say this was a French, but you say after e5?? it transposes to the
Vienna Game. According to another posts, chessbase classifies this as
"C29= Vienna gambit, Kaufmann variation."

Is scid wrong to clasify the game as a French Opening, when clearly it
does start 1. e4 e6, but later transposes into something quite
different.

I'm just interested in what is 'normal practice' in such situations.

Dr. David Kirkby

(the same person who started this thread, despite the fact the email
address is probably different.)




In the Informant/ECO system, the game is usually classified based on
what it turns into, not how it starts. ChessBase does the same.
Thus, for example, 1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 c5 3. d4 cxd4 is a Sicilian, not
a French.

Regards,
Richard Stanz
  #7  
Old July 1st 04, 09:33 PM
Mike Ogush
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is this the French or a King's Gambit??

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 09:05:47 GMT, "bruno de baenst"
wrote:

[Event "ICC 60 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2004.06.30"]
[Round "-"]
[White "gilalva"]
[Black "g8wrb"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ICCResult "Black resigns"]
[WhiteElo "1319"]
[BlackElo "1368"]
[Opening "French: Labourdonnais variation"]
[ECO "C00"]
[NIC "FR.01"]
[Time "19:31:25"]
[TimeControl "3600+0"]

1. e4 e6 2. f4?! (french:labourdonnais) Nf6?!


2...d5 keeps the game in the French Defense.
2...c5 would transpose to the Grand Prox variation of the the Sicilian
Defense
Both of these moves have better perfmance that the move played.

3. Nc3 e5?? (transposed to
vienna game with tempo less for black cause pawn on e5 used 2 tempo to get
there) 4. Nf3?? (fxe4 wins pawn) exf4 5. d4 d5


Better was 5...Bb4 6.Bd3 {defending the e-pawn in case Black captures
at c3} d5 and if 7.e5 Ne4 8.Bd2 Bxc3 9.bxc3 c5 10.O-O c4 11.Be2 Nc6
and Black may even be a little better.

6. e5 Nh5

Moving Ne4 is still better than putting the knight at the rim even
though ...Bb4 has not been played.

7. Be2 g6? (looks bad)


Better either here or at move 8 was ...Bg4 so that White would not
beable to weaken Black's king side pawns any more.
8. O-O
Nc6 9. Bb5? (Ne1 probably better)


9.Ne1 is better because after say 9...Be6 10.Bxh5 gxh5 {Black's
king-side pawns are chronically weak. Note that White does not need
to attack and win the pawns right away he can just continue to develop
secure in the knowledge that when an ending is reached Black is
probably lost because he won't be able to defnd the isolated and
doubled h-pawns. } 11.Nf3 and 12.Bxf4 restore material equality.

Be6 10. Ne1 Qg5 11. Nf3 Qg4??

loses queen


Better was 11...Qh6 to hang on to the pawn and allow the knight to
move Nh5-g7-f5.

12. h3! Qg3 13. Ne2 Qxh3


If Black is going to lose the queen he should at least rty to get as
much material for it as he can. By forcing White to take the queen at
g3 Black at least gets a knight in return (instead of two pawns as was
played in the game): 13...Be7 14. Nxg3 Nxg3 {attacking the Rf1}
15.Re1 g5 {Black is down a queen for a knight and pawn and is
therefore objectively lost, but has some possibilities of trying to
attack king-side.

14. gxh3 Bxh3
15. Rf2 Be7 16. Nxf4 Bg4 17. Nxh5 gxh5 18. Qd3 Rg8 19. Kh2 O-O-O 20.
Bxc6
bxc6 21. Qa6+ Kd7 22. e6+! fxe6 23. Ne5+ Kd6 24. Nf7+? (Qxc6++ is mate)

Kd7 25. Nxd8 Bxd8
26.
Bf4 {Black resigns} 1-0



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  #8  
Old July 1st 04, 11:28 PM
Mike Ogush
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Posts: n/a
Default Is this the French or a King's Gambit??

On 1 Jul 2004 06:44:46 -0700,
(Dr. David Kirkby)
wrote:

SNIP

Thanks a lot. This begs the question "How does one casify games?"

If a game starts as a an XXX but transposes to a YY, should the ECO
code match the XX or the YY? Should database programs, such as Scid
and Chessbase clasify the game as XXX or YY? Scid clearly choose to
say this was a French, but you say after e5?? it transposes to the
Vienna Game. According to another posts, chessbase classifies this as
"C29= Vienna gambit, Kaufmann variation."

Is scid wrong to clasify the game as a French Opening, when clearly it
does start 1. e4 e6, but later transposes into something quite
different.

I'm just interested in what is 'normal practice' in such situations.

Dr. David Kirkby

(the same person who started this thread, despite the fact the email
address is probably different.)


First, ECO or other opening classification is not just a procedure
that can be followed mechanically. There are three ways that I can
think of to classify the opening associated with a particular
position:

Way of classifying #1: Compare a position with all positions that
arise in all of the ECO lines. Only match when the an exact
samefposition occurs with the same side "on move". Use the opening
classification of the matching position that occurs latest in the
game.

Even in this case there can be ambiguities, because there are some
cases where identical positions occur in different ECO lines and so
move order needs to examined. This is because the people, who
designed design the ECO classification scheme were not completely
throrough in detecting duplicates or in making sure that all possible
positions were covered.

I suspect that this method is what Scid uses. As you have seen when
Black loses a tempo, Scid gets lost.


Way of classifying #2: Same as 1, but allow the side "on move" to be
different and still have a match. [This would cover cases where one
side lost a tempo.]

When you use the "opening classifcation" feature of Chessbase it will
bring up games that match the position with possibly the opposite site
on move. When I did this for the game that was posted at the started
this thread, Chessbase identified several games. For example:
Chigorin-Mieses from the Vienna Gambit tournament of 1903. The move
order was: 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e5 Nh5 5.Nc3 d5 6.d4 and this
position was reached in the ICC game only with White to move not Black
(due to the lost tempo). The ECO classification for this game and all
other games which matched was C34 a line of the King's Gambit
Accepted.

When I entered the game into chessbase the automatic classification
was C29 as you also noted. However, I think that this classification
is less correct because most of the lines in the Vienna Gambit
(including the Kaufmann) have Black allowing and White playing fxe5,
which did not occur in the game. I think that the C34 King's gambit a
tempo down is probably a better classification becuase Black did play
exf4.


Way of classifying #3.: Look for salient features in the position to
try and comare them with the salient features of all other openings to
determine the opening. Since as moves are made we could move from
opening to opening use the last opening classification we arive at to
decide the opening classification for the game.

For example after 1.Nc3 g6 2.e4 c5 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.a4 d6 5.d4 Nc6 6.Be3
cxd4 7.Nxd4 Nf6 8.f3 we have a position that has all the salient
features of a Yugoslav Attack in Sicilian Defense, Dragon Varation:
White: pawn e4, d-pawn gone, Nd4 Nc6, Be3 pawn at f3; Black: c-pawn
gone, paws at g6 and d6, Bg7, Nc6 Nf6, etc.

However, because White threw in 4.a4, looking for positions in the ECO
lines would lead to incorrect conclusions. Running Chessbase's
opening classification on this game would lead to an ECO
classification of C27 a closed sicilian, because no echange at d4 had
occurred before White deviated with 4.a4, which was the last matching
position Chessbase could find.

Another way of thinking of this classification method is to alter the
move order to defer irregular moves for as long as possible and then
use methods #1 or #2. Here that would be treating the game as if the
move order was: 1.Nc3 g6 2.e4 c5 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 d6 6.Be3
Nf6 7.f3 Nc6 8.a4 which classifies as B75, Yugoslav Attack in the
Sicilian Dragon.


I think that method number 3 is the best method, but it also requires
more human judgement in identifying the salient features of the
position or in deciding which moves to move until later.


Hope this helps your understanding.
  #9  
Old July 2nd 04, 06:31 AM
Mark S. Hathaway
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is this the French or a King's Gambit??

Avanti wrote:

"Who cares anyway" wrote in message
om...

I played a game on ICC today as black where I got rather lost in the
opening. Following 1. e4, I played 1...e6 with the intension of
playing the French Defence. But my opponent did not reply with the
usual 2. d4, but instead 2. f4, which rather took me by surprise.
Afterwards he did not seem too keen to discuss the game (despite he
won), but said it was the King's gambit. Yet when I stuck the game
into scid, it comes up with some French Variation I've never heard of.



1e4 e6
is the french,
2f4? d5

just ignore the odd moves, out of book against the french is usually
equality or a lead for black.


So, 1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 (King's Indian Attack)
is out of the normal French Defense, so it has to be
equal or better for Black? I don't play it, but I can
assure you it's not so clear.


  #10  
Old July 2nd 04, 07:00 AM
Avanti
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is this the French or a King's Gambit??


"Mark S. Hathaway" wrote in message
...
Avanti wrote:

"Who cares anyway" wrote in message
om...

I played a game on ICC today as black where I got rather lost in the
opening. Following 1. e4, I played 1...e6 with the intension of
playing the French Defence. But my opponent did not reply with the
usual 2. d4, but instead 2. f4, which rather took me by surprise.
Afterwards he did not seem too keen to discuss the game (despite he
won), but said it was the King's gambit. Yet when I stuck the game
into scid, it comes up with some French Variation I've never heard of.



1e4 e6
is the french,
2f4? d5

just ignore the odd moves, out of book against the french is usually
equality or a lead for black.


So, 1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 (King's Indian Attack)
is out of the normal French Defense, so it has to be
equal or better for Black? I don't play it, but I can
assure you it's not so clear.


Black hasn't played a 3rd move yet, The original poster sounds as novice as
me, I have the Watson's Play the French, and refer to the section covering
odd 2nd moves.


 




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