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R+2p vs R + 2p endgame - is this one a draw or a win for white?



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 5th 03, 07:16 AM
Martin
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Default R+2p vs R + 2p endgame - is this one a draw or a win for white?

Hi folks,

I hope some bright endgame expert out there can settle something for me. The following position was agreed a draw, but I'm now wondering whether a win for white was to be had. It's white to move and 1. Rc5 looks promising since taking the rook looks to be disaster for black, and a pawn advantage can be gained after (say) 1... Rd6 2. Rg5+ Kf7 3. Rxg4, but then what? 3. ... R h6 perhaps? Is there any drawing strategy after the pawn capture for black? And if so, does white have a better move than 1. Rc5, or a better plan than the pawn capture after it?

I'm lousy at endgames, so any help is very much appreciated.

Martin G

P.S. read in html...
--------
8/ + + +l+\
7/+ + + +o\
6/ + + + +\
5/+ +t+ + \
4/ +rP +o+\
3/+ + K + \
2/ + + + P\
1/+ + + + \
________
a b c d e f g h
  #2  
Old August 5th 03, 10:24 AM
abi
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Default R+2p vs R + 2p endgame - is this one a draw or a win for white?

"Martin" wrote in message ...
Hi folks,

I hope some bright endgame expert out there can settle something for me.
The following position was agreed a draw, but I'm now wondering whether
a win for white was to be had. It's white to move and 1. Rc5 looks
promising since taking the rook looks to be disaster for black, and a
pawn advantage can be gained after (say) 1... Rd6 2. Rg5+ Kf7 3. Rxg4,
but then what? 3. ... R h6 perhaps? Is there any drawing strategy after
the pawn capture for black? And if so, does white have a better move
than 1. Rc5, or a better plan than the pawn capture after it?

I'm lousy at endgames, so any help is very much appreciated.

Martin G

P.S. read in html...
--------
8/ + + +l+\
7/+ + + +o\
6/ + + + +\
5/+ +t+ + \
4/ +rP +o+\
3/+ + K + \
2/ + + + P\
1/+ + + + \

a b c d e f g h
--


there is a common language of talking about chess positions called
FEN. i think it would be nice if ou would like to post the position in
FEN than in plain english in what looks like your own idea of a
fantastic chess position to convey to others.

abi
  #3  
Old August 5th 03, 05:14 PM
Claus-Jürgen Heigl
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Default R+2p vs R + 2p endgame - is this one a draw or a win for white?

Martin wrote:
--------
8/ + + +l+\
7/+ + + +o\
6/ + + + +\
5/+ +t+ + \
4/ +rP +o+\
3/+ + K + \
2/ + + + P\
1/+ + + + \


I don´t know what l, o, t stands for. Is it: t=R, l=k, o=p?
Better to give the position in algebraic or FEN notation.

If the position is: White: Ke3, Rd5, Pd4, g2; Black: Kg8, Rc4, Pg4,
h7 then 1. Rc5 would be a mistake because the pawn endgame after
1...Rxc5 2. bxc5 is a draw.

See 2...Kf7 3. Kf4 Ke6 4. Kxg4 Kd5 5. Kh5 (no difference makes 5. Kf5
Kxc5 6. g4 Kd6 7. Kf6 Kd5 8. g5 Ke4) Kxc5 6. Kh6 Kd5 7. g4 (after
7. Kxh7 Ke5 captures the white pawn) 7...Ke5 8. g5 Kf5 draw.

Or 3. Kd4 Ke6 4. Ke4 (if 4. Kc4 h5 with the plan h4-h3 draws)
4...g3 5. Kd4 Kd7 5. Kd5 Kc7 6. c6 h5 7. Ke4 h4 8. Kf3 h3 9. gxh3
g2 10. Kxg2 Kxc6 draw, because the black king reaches the corner.

White has good winning chances after 1. Rg5+ Kf7 2. Rxg4.

Claus-Juergen
  #4  
Old August 5th 03, 08:13 PM
Martin
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Default R+2p vs R + 2p endgame - is this one a draw or a win for white?

Hi,

My sincere apologies - this was my first post here and I posted using a
chess font assuming that would be html readable by everyone... anyway, here
is the position that I was interested in (white to move):

White: Ke3, Rc4, Pd4 and h2
Black: Kg7, Rd5, Ph7 and g4

So is 1.Rc5 still a draw after the exchange? (My thanks for the analysis,
albeit from a different position.)

Thanks

Martin G.

"Claus-Jürgen Heigl" wrote in message
...
Martin wrote:
--------



  #5  
Old August 5th 03, 08:16 PM
Fernando
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Default R+2p vs R + 2p endgame - is this one a draw or a win for white?


"abi" schreef in bericht
om...
"Martin" wrote in message

...
Hi folks,

I hope some bright endgame expert out there can settle something for me.
The following position was agreed a draw, but I'm now wondering whether
a win for white was to be had. It's white to move and 1. Rc5 looks
promising since taking the rook looks to be disaster for black, and a
pawn advantage can be gained after (say) 1... Rd6 2. Rg5+ Kf7 3. Rxg4,
but then what? 3. ... R h6 perhaps? Is there any drawing strategy after
the pawn capture for black? And if so, does white have a better move
than 1. Rc5, or a better plan than the pawn capture after it?

I'm lousy at endgames, so any help is very much appreciated.

Martin G

P.S. read in html...
--------
8/ + + +l+\
7/+ + + +o\
6/ + + + +\
5/+ +t+ + \
4/ +rP +o+\
3/+ + K + \
2/ + + + P\
1/+ + + + \

a b c d e f g h
--


there is a common language of talking about chess positions called
FEN. i think it would be nice if ou would like to post the position in
FEN than in plain english in what looks like your own idea of a
fantastic chess position to convey to others.

abi


If not familiar with FEN:

rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1
or
4k3/8/8/8/8/8/8/2B1K1N1 w - - 0 1 (white to play and mate within 50 moves)

Positions are given line by line from A8-H8 to A1-H1
Lines are separated by slashes /
Empty squares are counted from left to right and given with a number.
Black pieces a k=king, q=queen, r=rook, n=knight, b=bishop, p=pawn
White pieces are same as black but kapitalised K,Q, R, N, B, P.

After the positions you will see who's move it is with a "w" or a "b"
The next four letters represent castling rights:
K = white can castle kingside, Q = white can castle queenside; kq is for
black
The - is used to assign an "en passant" square, (behind the pawn moved.)
I don't know what the first zero means
the last number, the 1, is the move number.

If you use this to decipher the above line, you'll notice it's the starting
position, white to move all castlingmoves are still valid, and it's move
number one.

If you use FEN, note the following:
-from a position it is impossible to discern if castling rights have been
forfeited due to a K or R move (ex. Kf1, later: Ke1) don't forget to mention
if castling is still possible.
-from a position it is impossible to discern if a pawn can be captured en
passant. You do not mention the place where the pawn stands which can be
captured so, but the square where the capturing pawn will come to stand.
don't forget to mention this possibility. (there are some cases where a mate
in two problem is involved, where the en passant possibility is purposely
left out as it is the only way to solve the mate in two problem)
-Who is to move? always good to know.
-Which move it is, is not important, any position may be giving as first
move.

Best regards,
Fernando




  #6  
Old August 6th 03, 12:45 AM
CeeBee
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Posts: n/a
Default R+2p vs R + 2p endgame - is this one a draw or a win for white?

"Martin" wrote in rec.games.chess.analysis:


What are the "- -" doing, given that there are no pawns to be taken en
passent?



The first dash: no castling rights by either side, the second, no .... en
passant capturing pssibilities.

The position you describe is:
8/6kp/8/3r4/2RP2p1/4K3/7P/8 w - - 0 1

I would be satisfied with a draw if I were white. At a quick glance, I
don't see how white will be able to promote its pawn without rook and king
support, leaving black the opportunity to annihilate the pawn on h2 and
promot _its_ pawn. In that case depending on the piece placement it could
well be _black_ the one to be the winning side.



Analysis by Fritz 8, after 19 minutes:


1.Ke4 Ra5 2.Rc7+ Kg6 3.Rc6+ Kf7 4.d5 Ra2 5.Rh6 Kg7 6.Rh4 Kf6 7.Kd4 Ra4+
8.Kc5 Ra5+ 9.Kc6
= (0.19) Depth: 19/46 00:18:28 888777kN, tb=302039

Rough "translation"
( = (0.19) equal position, very slight advantage for white.)
( Depth 19/46 = 19 ply (half moves) brute search, 46 ply selective search)
(888777kN = program has looked at 888,777,000 positions)
(tb=endgame tablebase hits, all 3-4-5 men TB's were available)



--
CeeBee


Uxbridge: "By God, sir, I've lost my leg!"
Wellington: "By God, sir, so you have!"


Google CeeBee @ www.geocities.com/ceebee_2

  #7  
Old August 6th 03, 03:04 AM
Claus-Jürgen Heigl
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Default R+2p vs R + 2p endgame - is this one a draw or a win for white?

Martin wrote:

Anyway, below is the position that I was
interested in (white to move... I'm mainly wondering whether 1.Rc5 wins or
not):

White: Ke3, Rc4, Pd4 and h2
Black: Kg7, Rd5, Ph7 and g4


The pawn endgame after 1. Rc5 Rxc5 2. dxc5 is a draw. 2...Kf6 3. Kf4
h5 4. c6 (the active black king forces this loss of tempo which is
enough to draw the game) 4...Ke6 5. Kg5 Kd6 6. Kxh5 Kxc6 7. Kxg4 Kd6
and the black king either reaches the corner or closes in the white
king on the h-file.

Claus-Juergen
  #8  
Old August 6th 03, 07:00 AM
Martin
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Default R+2p vs R + 2p endgame - is this one a draw or a win for white?

Bugger - I should have said black king on g8 not g7. My apologies for the
"brain fart". Does this change the result, I wonder?

(thanks for explaining the dashes)

Martin G

"CeeBee" wrote in message
. 6.84...
[snip]




  #9  
Old August 6th 03, 12:04 PM
Claus-Jürgen Heigl
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Default R+2p vs R + 2p endgame - is this one a draw or a win for white?

Martin wrote:

Bugger - I should have said black king on g8 not g7. My apologies for the
"brain fart". Does this change the result, I wonder?


Yes, it does. With the king on g8, the pawn endgame after 1. Rc5 Rxc5
2. dxc5 again is lost. 2...Kf7 3. Kf4 Ke6 4. Kxg4 Kd5 5. Kh5 Kxc5
6. Kh6 Kd5 7. Kxh7 Ke4 8. Kg6! wins. Black neither can get into the
corner or capture the pawn. There still is opportunity for mistakes
because 8. h4 Kf5 9. h5 Kf6 10. h6 (10. Kg8 Kg5) 10...Kf7 only draws.

The other pawn endgame after 1...Rd7 2. Rg5 Rg7 3. Rxg7+ (3. Kf4 is
also possible) 3...Kxg7 is also lost. 4. Kf4 Kf7 (4...h5 5. Kg5 wins)
5. Kxg4 Ke6 6. Kh5 Kd5 7. Kh6 Kxd4 8. Kxh7 Ke4 9. Kg6 reaching the
same position as above.

Black only has 1...Rd6 2. Rg5+ Kf7 3. Rxg4 Rh6 defending a probably
lost endgame.

Claus-Juergen
  #10  
Old August 6th 03, 06:06 PM
Martin
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Default R+2p vs R + 2p endgame - is this one a draw or a win for white?


"Claus-Jürgen Heigl" wrote in message
...
Martin wrote:

Bugger - I should have said black king on g8 not g7. My apologies for

the
"brain fart". Does this change the result, I wonder?


Yes, it does. With the king on g8, the pawn endgame after 1. Rc5 Rxc5
2. dxc5 again is lost. 2...Kf7 3. Kf4 Ke6 4. Kxg4 Kd5 5. Kh5 Kxc5
6. Kh6 Kd5 7. Kxh7 Ke4 8. Kg6! wins. Black neither can get into the
corner or capture the pawn. There still is opportunity for mistakes
because 8. h4 Kf5 9. h5 Kf6 10. h6 (10. Kg8 Kg5) 10...Kf7 only draws.


Yes - that's rather what I thought. Thanks for confirming that.


The other pawn endgame after 1...Rd7 2. Rg5 Rg7 3. Rxg7+ (3. Kf4 is
also possible) 3...Kxg7 is also lost. 4. Kf4 Kf7 (4...h5 5. Kg5 wins)
5. Kxg4 Ke6 6. Kh5 Kd5 7. Kh6 Kxd4 8. Kxh7 Ke4 9. Kg6 reaching the
same position as above.


I didn't consider this, but it seems the result is the same.


Black only has 1...Rd6 2. Rg5+ Kf7 3. Rxg4 Rh6 defending a probably
lost endgame.


This was exactly the variation that most interested me, and it does look
encouraging for white, but I wasn't sure how (as white) to prosecute it. My
endgame skills being what they are (next to non-existent), I wimped out and
offered the draw. Anyway, thank you very much for taking the time on this.

Martin G

















 




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