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Vienna Game after 2...Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Bc5



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 12th 03, 09:46 PM
Fred Galvin
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Default Vienna Game after 2...Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Bc5

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, Mike Ogush wrote:

As I was adding the Vienna Game to my opening repertoire for white I
noticed that after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Black has an
unusual move, 4...Bc5, that seems to get good results. Only 10 games
out of the 23,000+ in my collection of Vieena games reached this
position; White won 3 and Black won 5 for a 60% performance for Black.

When I looked at my books that cover the Vienna Game opening (ECO,
NCO, "The Complete Vienna" by Tseitlin and Glazkov, & "Vienna Game" by
Lane), none of them even discuss this possibility for Black.

It seems as if White has two main choices:
1) 5.d4 or
2) 5.Bc4 with some later transposition into some form of the 2...Nc6
3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5 line

1) The problem with 5.d4 is that Black can sacrifice a piece, which if
taken gets him at least a draw: 5....Nxd4! 6.Nxd4 Qh4+ 7.Ke2 d5!.
Here White got a draw in Leykens-Fierens Wch U26 Antwerp 1992) with
8.Nxd5 Bg4+ 9.Nf3 Bxf3 10.gxf3 (10.Kxf3 Qf2+ 11.Kg4 h5+ loses for
white) Qf2+ 11.Kd3 Qd4+ and perpeual check. In two other games White
played 8.Nf3 and after 8...Qf4+ 9.Kd3 dxe4+ 10.Ne4 Bf5 lost quickly in
both games.


Colin Leach, "Vienna Game and Gambit Part 3", 1993, gives one game
with 5...Nxd4. It's game 112 on p. 24, Madsen-Flues, Soeborg 1949.
Here is the game, with Leach's annotations.

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.d4 Nxd4?! 6.Nxd4 Qh4+ 7.Ke2 d5
8.Nf3? (h3!) Qf2+ 9.Kd3 dxe4+ 10.Nxe4 Bf5 11.Qe2 0-0-0+ 12.Kc4 Rd4+
13.Kxc5 b6+ 14.Kb5 Bd7+ 15.Ka6 Ra4#

  #2  
Old August 13th 03, 04:20 AM
Claus-Jürgen Heigl
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Default Vienna Game after 2...Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Bc5

Mike Ogush wrote:

It would have been nice for leach to provide a little followup to
8.h3! . Oh well.


I suggest that Black does not liquidate with 8...Bg4+ but develops
and brings more pieces into the attack with 8...Nf6.

9. exd5 0-0 10. Kd3

(other moves: 10. Qd2 plan Qxf4 10...Re8+ 11. Kd3 Bxd4 12. Kxd4 f3+
(12...Re1 looks interesting) 13. g4 Bxg4 Black has a dangerous
attack;
10. Nf3 Qf2+ 11. Kd3 Bf5+ 12. Kc4 c6 13. Qe2 cxd5+ 14. Kb3 Qg3
unclear)

10...Bxd4 11. Kxd4 f3+ 12. g4 Bxg4 (Nxg4 looks also good) 13. hxg4
Qxh1 14. Be2 Qh2 15. Bxf3 Rfe8 and Black still has a nice attack.

9. Nxd5 Nxd5 10. exd5 0-0 11. Kd3 (10. Nf3 Re8+ 11. Kd2 (11. Kd3
Bf5+ is good for Black) 11...Be3+ 12. Kc3 Qf6+ 13. Kb3 (13. Nd4 c5)
13...Qb6+ 14. Kc3 Bf5 with lots of compensation for Black) 11...Re8
plan Re1 12. Bd2 (12. Qf3 Re1 the pawn f4 can´t be taken and White
has some problems developing) f3 13. g4 Bxd4 14. Kxd4 Bxg4 15. hxg4
Qxh1 16. Be2 Qh2 plan Qe5xb2.

CLaus-Juergen
  #3  
Old August 13th 03, 09:05 AM
Fred Galvin
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Default Vienna Game after 2...Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Bc5

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, [iso-8859-1] Claus-J=FCrgen Heigl wrote:

I suggest that Black does not liquidate with 8...Bg4+ but develops
and brings more pieces into the attack with 8...Nf6.


Thanks for the analysis. It seems to me White needs to move his Q so
that his K can escape to d1. What about 9.Qd3 0-0 10.Nf3?

  #4  
Old August 13th 03, 03:14 PM
Sandy Breon
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Default Vienna Game after 2...Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Bc5

Mike,

I play the Vienna game too, and I only play 3.f4 versus 3...Nf6, not 3...Nc6
because of Qh4+. The game gets wild. If I see 3...Nc6 I will play 4.Bc4,
probably d3 afterward and will attempt to push f4 later in the game.

Sandy



"Mike Ogush" wrote in message
...
Hello,

As I was adding the Vienna Game to my opening repertoire for white I
noticed that after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Black has an
unusual move, 4...Bc5, that seems to get good results. Only 10 games
out of the 23,000+ in my collection of Vieena games reached this
position; White won 3 and Black won 5 for a 60% performance for Black.

When I looked at my books that cover the Vienna Game opening (ECO,
NCO, "The Complete Vienna" by Tseitlin and Glazkov, & "Vienna Game" by
Lane), none of them even discuss this possibility for Black.

It seems as if White has two main choices:
1) 5.d4 or
2) 5.Bc4 with some later transposition into some form of the 2...Nc6
3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5 line

1) The problem with 5.d4 is that Black can sacrifice a piece, which if
taken gets him at least a draw: 5....Nxd4! 6.Nxd4 Qh4+ 7.Ke2 d5!.
Here White got a draw in Leykens-Fierens Wch U26 Antwerp 1992) with
8.Nxd5 Bg4+ 9.Nf3 Bxf3 10.gxf3 (10.Kxf3 Qf2+ 11.Kg4 h5+ loses for
white) Qf2+ 11.Kd3 Qd4+ and perpeual check. In two other games White
played 8.Nf3 and after 8...Qf4+ 9.Kd3 dxe4+ 10.Ne4 Bf5 lost quickly in
both games.

The only whay to play for a win in this line for White is to not
accept the sacrifice and stick with gambiting a pawn as was his
intention when playing 3.f4: 6.Bxf4 and now Black must repond to
threat to capture at Nd4 since Qh4+ is no longer good.

2) Only one game rached the position after 5.Bc4. It did not
transpose into the line I mentioned above and was marred by several
mistakes by Black and one by White.

Engberg,P - Nystrom,H [C25]
Hallstahammar Open (4), 1998

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.Bc4 Nh6 6.d4 Nxd4 7.Nxd4 Qh4+
8.g3 fxg3 9.Kf1 Qh3+ [9...d5! 10.Bxh6 dxc4 11.Be3 Qh3+ 12.Ke1 g2
13.Rg1 Qxe3+ 14.Nce2 Qxe4 15.c3 Bg4-+] 10.Ke1 g2 11.Rg1 Qh4+ 12.Kd2
Bxd4 13.Rxg2 Qf4+ [13...c6 14.Qf3 d6 15.Kd3 Bf6 16.Bf4 Bg4 17.Qf2 Qxf2
18.Rxf2 b5 19.Bb3 Ng8 20.Rg1 Bh5-+] 14.Ke2 Bxc3?? [14...Qe5] 15.bxc3??
[15.Bxf4+-] 15...Qh4 16.Rf2 ½-½


What I would like from this forum is a pointer to any games or
analysis of either the 5.d4 Nxd4 6.Bxf4 or the 5.Bc4 followed by 6.d3
lines.

Thanks,

Mike Ogush



  #5  
Old August 13th 03, 04:10 PM
Claus-Jürgen Heigl
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Default Vienna Game after 2...Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Bc5

Fred Galvin wrote:

I suggest that Black does not liquidate with 8...Bg4+ but develops
and brings more pieces into the attack with 8...Nf6.


Thanks for the analysis. It seems to me White needs to move his Q so
that his K can escape to d1. What about 9.Qd3 0-0 10.Nf3?


Looks like a good attempt from White. I think Black should challenge
the knight immediately with 10...Bg4. Black threatens to capture on
e4, so White definitely has to do someting about it. White´s only
two moves are 11. e5 and 11. hxg4. All other moves are losing.

11. Nxd5 Nxd5 12. hxg4 (12. Qxd5 Qf2+ 13. Kd3 Bxf3-+; 12. exd5 Rfe8
13. Kd2 Be3+ 14. Kc3 (14. Kd1 Bxf3+ 15. gxf3 Bxc1 16. Be2 Bxb2 -+)
14...Bxf3 15. gxf3 Bxc1 16. Rxc1 Re3 -+) 12...Qf2+ 13. Kd1 Ne3+
14. Bxe3 Bxe3 15. Ne5 (15. Rh5 plan Rd5 15...c6 -+) 15...f3 16. g3
(16. fxg3 Rad8 17. Nd7 Rxd7 18. Qxd7 Qxf3+ 19. Ke1 Bf2+ 20. Kd2 Qe3+
21. Kd1 Qe1 mate) 16...Rad8 17. Nd7 Bg5 -+.

11. Kd1 dxe4 12. Nxe4 Nxe4 13. Qxe4 Rfe8 14. hxg4 Qxh1 15. Qc4 Rad8+
16. Bd2 (16. Nd2 Rd4 17. Qb5 c6 winning the queen) 16...Be3 17. c3
Bxd2 18. Nxd2 f3 19. gxf3 Qh2 winning.

11. hxg4 Qxh1 12. e5 (12. Nxd5 Nxe4 13. Qxe4 Rae8 14. Ne5 f3 15. gxf3
Qh2 -/+) 12...Nxg4 13. Bxf4 Rad8
Black has a rook and two pawns for two pieces while White has the
king in the center. If the black queen can find her way back into the
game Black should be better. 14. Qf5 is an attempt to shut out the
black queen. Black then can wimp out with 14...Nh6 15. Qh3 Qxh3 or
push it with 14...h5 15. Kd2 (White doesn´t have many useful moves)
15...g6 16. Qd3 c6 threatening Ng4-f2-e4xc3 demolishing the queenside.

12. e5 Bxf3 13. Qxf3 Nh4 14. Kd1 (14. g4 Ng3+ 15. Kd1 Nxh1 16. Qxh1
Qf2 plan Qd4+ and Qxe5 is probably ok for Black) 14...Ng3 15. Bxf4
Nxh1 16. g3 Qe7 17. Qxh1 c6 18. Bd3 f6 or 18...Bd4 for a roughly
equal game.

Claus-Juergen
  #6  
Old August 14th 03, 03:32 PM
Tony T. Warnock
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Default Vienna Game after 2...Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Bc5



Fred Galvin wrote:

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, [iso-8859-1] Claus-Jürgen Heigl wrote:

Fred Galvin wrote:

Thanks for the analysis. It seems to me White needs to move his Q so
that his K can escape to d1. What about 9.Qd3 0-0 10.Nf3?


Looks like a good attempt from White. I think Black should challenge
the knight immediately with 10...Bg4. Black threatens to capture on
e4, so White definitely has to do someting about it. White´s only
two moves are 11. e5 and 11. hxg4. All other moves are losing.


If White is not going to play hxg4, then Leach's 8.h3 seems pointless.
Maybe White should omit h3 and play 8.Qd3? Is there a clear
refutation?


It's not clear, but after 8...Bg4, 9.Nf3 0-0-0, it seems as if Black King's
Rook comes into play before White's Queen's Rook. Black should get good
attacking chances. Of course, White has a piece for two Pawns and may allows
a counter-sacrifice.

  #7  
Old August 14th 03, 04:44 PM
Claus-Jürgen Heigl
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Default Vienna Game after 2...Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Bc5

Fred Galvin wrote:

If White is not going to play hxg4, then Leach's 8.h3 seems pointless.
Maybe White should omit h3 and play 8.Qd3? Is there a clear
refutation?


I´d say there is an unclear one. See below.

8. Qd3 (threatening Qb5+) 8...Bg4+ 9. Nf3 0-0-0 10. e5 (keeps the
files closed) 10...Qg5 11. Kd1 Qxe5. Black has three pawns for
the piece and some initiative. But I don´t know if it´s enough.

10...f6 11. e6 g5 12. Kd1 is probably inferior for Black. White
plans Be2 and Nd4 and Black will have a serious weakness on the
white squares. The pawns are not mobile.

10...Nf6 (Sacrificing another piece looks crazy but may be just
what´s needed.) 11. exf6 (11. Bxf4 Nh5 12. Bd2 Ng3+ 13. hxg3 Qxh1
and Black can´t complain. Perhaps White best takes this route.)

11...Rhe8+ 12. Kd2 Qf2+ 13. Ne2

Black wins after 13. Be2 Re3 14. Qb5 (14. Rf1 Rxd3+ 15. cxd3 Qxg2
16. fxg7 Re8 17. a3 (17. Kc2 Bxf3 18. Rxf3 d4 wins) 17...Bd4
18. Nxd4 Bxe2 19. Re1 Bg4+ 20. Nce2 f3 21. Rg1 Qxg1 22. Nxg1 f2
winning) 14...d4 15. Nd5 Bxf3 16. gxf3 d3 17. Nxe3 (17. Kc3 Rxd5)
17...dxe2+ 18. Kc3 e1Q+ 19. Rxe1 Qxe1+ 20. Kb3 Bxe3 winning)

13...Re3 14. Qb5 c6 15. Qxc5 Rxe2+ 16. Bxe2 Qxc5. Material is rougly
even, but the Ra1 is not in play. Black may have an edge.

There are not that many more alternatives for White in the 8th move.

10. Kd3 Bxd4 11. Kxd4 Qf2+ 12. Kd3 dxe4+ 13. Kc4 (13. Nxe4 Bf5 wins
the knight, for example 14. Qf3 0-0-0+ 15. Kc3 Qd4+ 16. Kb3 Bxe4)
13...Be6+ 14. Kb4 (14. Nd5 0-0-0) 14...a5+ 15. Ka4 Bc4 and the threat
b5 costs the queen (Qh5).

10. Nf3 Qf2+ 11. Kd3 dxe4+ 12. Nxe4 Bf5 loses the knight.

Resume so far: 5...Nxd4 may be not winning but no clear refutation
is in sight.

Claus-Juergen
  #8  
Old August 14th 03, 09:35 PM
Mike Ogush
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Default Vienna Game after 2...Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Bc5

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:20:10 +0200, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Claus=2DJ=FCrgen?=
Heigl wrote:

Mike Ogush wrote:

It would have been nice for leach to provide a little followup to
8.h3! . Oh well.


I suggest that Black does not liquidate with 8...Bg4+ but develops
and brings more pieces into the attack with 8...Nf6.

9. exd5 0-0 10. Kd3

(other moves: 10. Qd2 plan Qxf4 10...Re8+ 11. Kd3 Bxd4 12. Kxd4 f3+
(12...Re1 looks interesting) 13. g4 Bxg4 Black has a dangerous
attack;
10. Nf3 Qf2+ 11. Kd3 Bf5+ 12. Kc4 c6 13. Qe2 cxd5+ 14. Kb3 Qg3
unclear)

10...Bxd4 11. Kxd4 f3+ 12. g4 Bxg4 (Nxg4 looks also good) 13. hxg4
Qxh1 14. Be2 Qh2 15. Bxf3 Rfe8 and Black still has a nice attack.

9. Nxd5 Nxd5 10. exd5 0-0 11. Kd3 (10. Nf3 Re8+ 11. Kd2 (11. Kd3
Bf5+ is good for Black) 11...Be3+ 12. Kc3 Qf6+ 13. Kb3 (13. Nd4 c5)
13...Qb6+ 14. Kc3 Bf5 with lots of compensation for Black) 11...Re8
plan Re1 12. Bd2 (12. Qf3 Re1 the pawn f4 can´t be taken and White
has some problems developing) f3 13. g4 Bxd4 14. Kxd4 Bxg4 15. hxg4
Qxh1 16. Be2 Qh2 plan Qe5xb2.

CLaus-Juergen


There are two places in the above analysis that I think merit further
investigation to show if the line is viable for White.

The first is in the line: 9.exd5 O-O 10.Nf3 Qf2+ 11.Kd3 Bf5+ 12.Kc4
c6. Here you suggested the continuation 13.Qe2 cxd5+ 14.Kb3 Qg3 and
evaluated it as unclear. There is a possibly better move for White:
13.Kb3 cxd5 14.Bxf4 White has a material plus a piece for a pawn, but
his king position is anything but secure. White's plan is to keep his
king reasonably safe while forcing Black to trade pieces. Black's
plan is to keep pressure on the White's king and either get checkmate
or a material plus. I would consider this still unclear until someone
does an exhaustive analysis to show if White survives or if Black
triumphs.

The second position is more promising for White. In the line 9.Nxd5
Nxd5 10.exd5 O-O 11.Kd3 Re8 12.Qf3 Re1 you state that "the pawn at f4
can't be taken and White has some problems developing". However,
after 13.g4 fxg3 14.c3, White is going to develop and should be able
to consolidate his material plus.

Mike Ogush
  #9  
Old August 16th 03, 11:26 AM
Claus-Jürgen Heigl
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Default Vienna Game after 2...Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Bc5

Mike Ogush wrote:

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:20:10 +0200, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Claus=2DJ=FCrgen?=
Heigl wrote:

I suggest that Black does not liquidate with 8...Bg4+ but develops
and brings more pieces into the attack with 8...Nf6.

There are two places in the above analysis that I think merit further
investigation to show if the line is viable for White.

The first is in the line: 9.exd5 O-O 10.Nf3 Qf2+ 11.Kd3 Bf5+ 12.Kc4
c6. Here you suggested the continuation 13.Qe2 cxd5+ 14.Kb3 Qg3 and
evaluated it as unclear. There is a possibly better move for White:
13.Kb3 cxd5 14.Bxf4 White has a material plus a piece for a pawn, but
his king position is anything but secure.


Agreed. One idea for Black could be 14...Rfc8 because the queen trade
15. Qe2 Qxe2 16. Bxe2 d4 still leaves Black with a dangerous attack.
(e.g. 17. Na4 Be6+ 18. c4 (18. Bc4 Bxc4+ 19. Kc4 Bd6+ -/+) 18...dxc3+
19. Kc2 Nd5 unclear)

The second position is more promising for White. In the line 9.Nxd5
Nxd5 10.exd5 O-O 11.Kd3 Re8 12.Qf3 Re1 you state that "the pawn at f4
can't be taken and White has some problems developing". However,
after 13.g4 fxg3 14.c3, White is going to develop and should be able
to consolidate his material plus.


Since White has the strong threat 15. Bg5 Black is forced to 14...Bxd4
15. cxd4 f6 when 16. Bg5 is met by 16...Rxf1 and 17...Qxg5. 16. Bg2
Rxh1 17. Bxh1 Bxh3 looks like Black may have enough compensation in
the passed pawns on the kingside. 18. d6 (now White has Qd5+ after
Rxf1) 18...c6. White still has some problems to develop without
losing too much pawns (h3 and the d-pawns).

Claus-Juergen
  #10  
Old August 19th 03, 08:59 PM
Mike Ogush
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Default Vienna Game after 2...Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 Bc5

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:26:10 +0200, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Claus=2DJ=FCrgen?=
Heigl wrote:

Mike Ogush wrote:

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:20:10 +0200, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Claus=2DJ=FCrgen?=
Heigl wrote:

I suggest that Black does not liquidate with 8...Bg4+ but develops
and brings more pieces into the attack with 8...Nf6.

There are two places in the above analysis that I think merit further
investigation to show if the line is viable for White.

The first is in the line: 9.exd5 O-O 10.Nf3 Qf2+ 11.Kd3 Bf5+ 12.Kc4
c6. Here you suggested the continuation 13.Qe2 cxd5+ 14.Kb3 Qg3 and
evaluated it as unclear. There is a possibly better move for White:
13.Kb3 cxd5 14.Bxf4 White has a material plus a piece for a pawn, but
his king position is anything but secure.


Agreed. One idea for Black could be 14...Rfc8 because the queen trade
15. Qe2 Qxe2 16. Bxe2 d4 still leaves Black with a dangerous attack.
(e.g. 17. Na4 Be6+ 18. c4 (18. Bc4 Bxc4+ 19. Kc4 Bd6+ -/+) 18...dxc3+
19. Kc2 Nd5 unclear)

The second position is more promising for White. In the line 9.Nxd5
Nxd5 10.exd5 O-O 11.Kd3 Re8 12.Qf3 Re1 you state that "the pawn at f4
can't be taken and White has some problems developing". However,
after 13.g4 fxg3 14.c3, White is going to develop and should be able
to consolidate his material plus.


Since White has the strong threat 15. Bg5 Black is forced to 14...Bxd4
15. cxd4 f6 when 16. Bg5 is met by 16...Rxf1 and 17...Qxg5. 16. Bg2
Rxh1 17. Bxh1 Bxh3 looks like Black may have enough compensation in
the passed pawns on the kingside. 18. d6 (now White has Qd5+ after
Rxf1) 18...c6. White still has some problems to develop without
losing too much pawns (h3 and the d-pawns).


I prefer interposing 16.Kc3 with plan of d6 and Bc4+ winning the rook.

Black has plenty of time to respond to the threat. Best seems to be
moving the king: 16...Kh8. Now 17.Bg2 Rxh1 18.Bxh1 Bh3 19.Bd2
developing since the d-pawns are not vulnerable yet.

Here Black has three reasonable moves:
1) 19...Bg4 after 20.Qf3 Qh3 21.Bf3 Bxf3 22.Rg1 Qd7 23.Rg1 Rd8 24.Bf4
Qxd5 25.Qxd5 Rxd5 26.Bxc7 and White is better because Black's rook or
king are going to be kept busy with White's passed d-pawn and the
passed king-side pawns cannot progress all alone.

2) 19...Qg4 after 20.Qxg4 Bxg4 21.Be1 Re8 22.Kd3 White is better. He
is going to pick the pawn at g3 and threaten Black's qeenside pawns
with the two bishops. Black may be able to maintain the material
status quo (down a piece for two pawns) for a while; however, because
the rook, bishop and possibly king will be needed to defend the
queenside pawns (and possible passed d-pawn if White can engineer it)
Black will be unable to get his own passed king-side pawns rolling.

3) 19...Rc8 20.Rg1 c5 21.Qf4 cxd4+ 22.Kd3 Qxf4 23.Bxf4 and once again
White is better due to the passed d-pawn and Black's inability to get
the king-side pawns rolling.

Mike Ogush

Claus-Juergen


 




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