Since Kramnik is the world chess champion, does that mean that he is a
genius and have a high IQ? Could he be a member of Mensa ?

Zero wrote:
Since Kramnik is the world chess champion, does that mean that he is a
genius and have a high IQ? Could he be a member of Mensa ?


Mensa is what? 130+? I think Kramnik, like most other grandmasters, can
get 2 Mensa memberships, if you can figure out what i mean.

wrote:
Zero wrote:
Since Kramnik is the world chess champion, does that mean that he is a
genius and have a high IQ? Could he be a member of Mensa ?


Mensa is what? 130+? I think Kramnik, like most other grandmasters, can
get 2 Mensa memberships, if you can figure out what i mean.


Of course we can figure out what you're saying --
do you think we're all stupid? You're saying that
Kramnik's IQ is not less than 230, so he can get
a multiple-membership discount at Mensa. ;D

-------

I saw an online IQ test at tickle.com, and many
of the questions were just pattern-matching, which
is a skill not unrelated to chess. I expect most, if
not all, GMs would do well on such a test. But there
are those few who have a special talent for one thing,
and far from being all-around geniuses, these people
are often termed idiot-savants. I don't see any reason
an idiot-savant could not be "trained" to perform well
on a standard IQ test, provided he is not truly an
idiot. One problem is that these tests are rather
limited in scope. What is purportedly a test of
intelligence, is more a test of education and specific,
learned skills. What is needed is a more general
approach like say, putting a person in a cage with a
tiger and seeing if he is any "smarter" than a monkey
in the exact same position. :D


-- help bot

help bot wrote:
wrote:
Zero wrote:
Since Kramnik is the world chess champion, does that mean that he is a
genius and have a high IQ? Could he be a member of Mensa ?


Mensa is what? 130+? I think Kramnik, like most other grandmasters, can
get 2 Mensa memberships, if you can figure out what i mean.


Of course we can figure out what you're saying --
do you think we're all stupid? You're saying that
Kramnik's IQ is not less than 230, so he can get
a multiple-membership discount at Mensa. ;D


Sure you are not stupid, but 130 times 2 is still 260 not 230.


I saw an online IQ test at tickle.com, and many
of the questions were just pattern-matching, which
is a skill not unrelated to chess. I expect most, if
not all, GMs would do well on such a test. But there
are those few who have a special talent for one thing,
and far from being all-around geniuses, these people
are often termed idiot-savants. I don't see any reason
an idiot-savant could not be "trained" to perform well
on a standard IQ test, provided he is not truly an
idiot. One problem is that these tests are rather
limited in scope. What is purportedly a test of
intelligence, is more a test of education and specific,
learned skills. What is needed is a more general
approach like say, putting a person in a cage with a
tiger and seeing if he is any "smarter" than a monkey
in the exact same position. :D


-- help bot

It is well known that chess ability and IQ, are not related. As to whether
Kramnik has a high IQ or not, only an IQ test can tell.

--
Kenneth
"Zero" wrote in message
oups.com...
Since Kramnik is the world chess champion, does that mean that he is a
genius and have a high IQ? Could he be a member of Mensa ?

On 13 Oct 2006 22:32:16 -0700, wrote:


Zero wrote:
Since Kramnik is the world chess champion, does that mean that he is a
genius and have a high IQ? Could he be a member of Mensa ?


Mensa is what? 130+? I think Kramnik, like most other grandmasters, can
get 2 Mensa memberships, if you can figure out what i mean.

Actually, they don't get two memberships, they get one double-lifetime
membership.

wrote:
help bot wrote:
wrote:
Zero wrote:
Since Kramnik is the world chess champion, does that mean that he is a
genius and have a high IQ? Could he be a member of Mensa ?


Mensa is what? 130+? I think Kramnik, like most other grandmasters, can
get 2 Mensa memberships, if you can figure out what i mean.


Of course we can figure out what you're saying --
do you think we're all stupid? You're saying that
Kramnik's IQ is not less than 230, so he can get
a multiple-membership discount at Mensa. ;D


Sure you are not stupid, but 130 times 2 is still 260 not 230.

Bs'd

Says who?

Eliyahu

wrote:

Mensa is what? 130+? I think Kramnik, like most other grandmasters, can
get 2 Mensa memberships, if you can figure out what i mean.


Of course we can figure out what you're saying --
do you think we're all stupid? You're saying that
Kramnik's IQ is not less than 230, so he can get
a multiple-membership discount at Mensa. ;D


Sure you are not stupid, but 130 times 2 is still 260 not 230.


What I wrote was obviously a typo for 630, which any
fool can see is what you get when you multiply 320 by
2 and divide by twelve. Stop trying to criticise your
betters. I suppose you remembered to adjust for IQ
inflation? Thought not. You're probably not even a
member of Mesna!

-- Larry Bott

Kenneth wrote:

It is well known that chess ability and IQ, are not related.


It is? Could you please remind us of the evidence that you base such an
absurd statement on, genius?


--
Kenneth
"Zero" wrote in message
oups.com...
Since Kramnik is the world chess champion, does that mean that he is a
genius and have a high IQ? Could he be a member of Mensa ?


http://www.chesscafe.com/text/genius.txt

"Genius in Chess" by Jonathan Levitt, 1997 American Batsford
Chess Library, Figurine Algebraic Notation, paperback, 128pp.,
$19.50

Reviewed by Glenn Budzinski

Did you ever wonder, even if for only a moment, whether you had
enough raw talent to make it to the top of the chess world
someday? Does one really have to be a genius to be World
Champion? British GM Jonathan Levitt's "Genius in Chess"
purports to help you determine whether or not you have the right
stuff.

The book consists of 128 pages segregated into four parts, plus a
preface, a forward and an index. Part 1, entitled "The Nature of
Chess Genius", which corresponds to about one- quarter of the
book, is a rather detailed discussion of the correlation between
chess talent and genius, and the influence of IQ. Part 2 includes 8
separate tests (plus solutions) that can be taken to determine, to
some degree, the extent of one's chess talent. A 20-question,
multiple choice test (with answers at the end of the section),
consisting mostly of middle and endgame positions, can be found
in Part III, while the final part offers a few pages of advice on how
to develop one's talent.

The elements of genius, talent and intelligence are interwoven
throughout "The Nature of Chess Genius" narrative section.
Although there is much background information offered about how
the game of chess is learned and understood, be forewarned: light
reading, it is not.

Levitt begins by distinguishing between the concepts of
intelligence, creativity and genius, followed by a close look at what
he believes it means to be a genius at chess. According to him, a
chess genius is a person who exhibits certain traits such as a high
IQ, a strong desire to win, one who is physically capable of
performing his (or her) best at the board, superior concentration,
perhaps a proper background (whatever that may mean), as well as
unusually good perception and vision of the board and positions.
Chess geniuses can be further segregated into two categories: the
"Type A" genius, considered to be a positional or strategic player,
like Steinitz, Capablanca and Karpov; and the "Type B" genius,
such as Lasker, Alekhine, Tal and Kasparov, viewed as calculators
or tacticians. (Fischer and Spassky are identified in a third
category, "Universal", since they are, in Levitt's words, "harder to
call," p. 33.)

For Levitt, chess talent, or potential chess strength (which is
different from current chess strength as determined by tournament
play), is inextricably linked to IQ. In an attempt to quantify just
how closely these two aspects are related, he came up with a
mathematical formula called, not surprisingly, "The Levitt
Equation". This formula calculates an Elo rating which expresses
one's potential chess strength (talent) as being equal to ten times
one's IQ, plus 1000 points. Thus, he claims that Bobby Fischer
once scored 187 on an IQ test so, applying The Levitt Equation,
Bobby's potential chess strength would be equal to a rating of
about 2870 if he reached his peak talent. (187 x 10 = 1870 + 1000
= 2870)

wrote:
Kenneth wrote:

It is well known that chess ability and IQ, are not related.


It is? Could you please remind us of the evidence that you base such an
absurd statement on, genius?


--
Kenneth
"Zero" wrote in message
oups.com...
Since Kramnik is the world chess champion, does that mean that he is a
genius and have a high IQ? Could he be a member of Mensa ?


http://www.chesscafe.com/text/genius.txt

"Genius in Chess" by Jonathan Levitt, 1997 American Batsford
Chess Library, Figurine Algebraic Notation, paperback, 128pp.,
$19.50

Reviewed by Glenn Budzinski

Did you ever wonder, even if for only a moment, whether you had
enough raw talent to make it to the top of the chess world
someday? Does one really have to be a genius to be World
Champion? British GM Jonathan Levitt's "Genius in Chess"
purports to help you determine whether or not you have the right
stuff.

The book consists of 128 pages segregated into four parts, plus a
preface, a forward and an index. Part 1, entitled "The Nature of
Chess Genius", which corresponds to about one- quarter of the
book, is a rather detailed discussion of the correlation between
chess talent and genius, and the influence of IQ. Part 2 includes 8
separate tests (plus solutions) that can be taken to determine, to
some degree, the extent of one's chess talent. A 20-question,
multiple choice test (with answers at the end of the section),
consisting mostly of middle and endgame positions, can be found
in Part III, while the final part offers a few pages of advice on how
to develop one's talent.

The elements of genius, talent and intelligence are interwoven
throughout "The Nature of Chess Genius" narrative section.
Although there is much background information offered about how
the game of chess is learned and understood, be forewarned: light
reading, it is not.

Levitt begins by distinguishing between the concepts of
intelligence, creativity and genius, followed by a close look at what
he believes it means to be a genius at chess. According to him, a
chess genius is a person who exhibits certain traits such as a high
IQ, a strong desire to win, one who is physically capable of
performing his (or her) best at the board, superior concentration,
perhaps a proper background (whatever that may mean), as well as
unusually good perception and vision of the board and positions.
Chess geniuses can be further segregated into two categories: the
"Type A" genius, considered to be a positional or strategic player,
like Steinitz, Capablanca and Karpov; and the "Type B" genius,
such as Lasker, Alekhine, Tal and Kasparov, viewed as calculators
or tacticians. (Fischer and Spassky are identified in a third
category, "Universal", since they are, in Levitt's words, "harder to
call," p. 33.)

For Levitt, chess talent, or potential chess strength (which is
different from current chess strength as determined by tournament
play), is inextricably linked to IQ. In an attempt to quantify just
how closely these two aspects are related, he came up with a
mathematical formula called, not surprisingly, "The Levitt
Equation". This formula calculates an Elo rating which expresses
one's potential chess strength (talent) as being equal to ten times
one's IQ, plus 1000 points. Thus, he claims that Bobby Fischer
once scored 187 on an IQ test so, applying The Levitt Equation,
Bobby's potential chess strength would be equal to a rating of
about 2870 if he reached his peak talent. (187 x 10 = 1870 + 1000
= 2870)


http://www.auschess.org.au/articles/chessmind.htm

Analysis, Logic, and Problem Solving

Playing chess well involves a combination of aptitudes. A 1973-74
study in Zaire by Dr Albert Frank (1974) found that good teenage chess
players (16-18 years old) had strong spatial, numerical,
administrative-directional, and paperwork abilities. Dr Robert
Ferguson (1995, p. 2) notes that "This finding tends to show that
ability in chess is not due to the presence in an individual of only
one or two abilities but that a large number of aptitudes all work
together in chess." Even more significantly Frank's study found
that learning chess, even as teenagers, strengthened both numerical and
verbal aptitudes. This occurred for the majority of students (not just
the strong players) who took a chess course for two hours each week for
one school year. Other studies have added that playing chess can
strengthen a child's memory (Artise).

A 1990-92 study in New Brunswick, Canada, further shows the value of
chess for developing problem solving skills among young children
(Gaudreau 1992). By integrating chess into the traditional mathematics
curriculum teachers were able to raise significantly the average
problem solving scores of their students. These students also scored
far higher on problem solving tests than ones who just took the
standard mathematics course. Primary school chess has now exploded in
New Brunswick. In 1989, 120 students played in the provincial school
chess championship. Three years later over 19,000 played (Ferguson
1995, p. 11).

Chess has also been shown to foster critical and creative thinking. Dr
Ferguson's four-year study (1979-83) analysed the impact of chess on
students' thinking skills in the Bradford Area School District in the
United States (grades 7-9). These students were already identified as
gifted, with intelligence quotient (IQ) scores above 130. Using two
tests (Watson-Glaser Critical Thinking Appraisal and the Torrance Tests
of Creative Thinking) Ferguson (1995, pp. 4-6) found that after
spending 60-64 hours playing and studying chess over 32 weeks students
showed significant progress in critical thinking. He further found
that chess enhances "creativity in gifted adolescents." He
concluded that "it appears that chess is superior to many currently
used programs for developing creative thinking and, therefore, could
logically be included in a differentiated program for mentally gifted
students".

Playing chess, however, is not only valuable for developing the skills
of gifted children. Average and even below average learners can also
benefit. Chess teacher Michael Wojcio (1990) notes that "even if a
slow learner does not grasp all of [the strategies and tactics in
chess], he/she can still benefit by learning language, concepts, and
fine motor movement." During a program run by Dr Ferguson from
September 1987 to May 1988 all members of a standard sixth grade class
in rural Pennsylvania were required to take chess lessons and play
games. This class had 9 boys and 5 girls. At the start of this study
students took IQ tests, producing a mean IQ of 104.6. Students then
studied chess two or three times per week while playing most days.
They were also encouraged to participate in tournaments. After this
intensive chess instruction a group of seven boys managed to finish
second in the 1998 Pennsylvania State Scholastic Championship.
Significantly, at the conclusion of the study tests showed a
significant increase in both memory and verbal reasoning skills,
especially among the more competitive chess players (Ferguson 1995, pp.
8-9).

Chess has even been shown to raise students' overall IQ scores. Using
the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children a Venezuelan study of over
4,000 second grade students found a significant increase in most
students' IQ scores after only 4.5 months of systematically studying
chess. This occurred across all socio-economic groups and for both
males and females. The Venezuelan government was so impressed that all
Venezuelan schools introduced chess lessons starting in 1988-89
(summarised in Ferguson 1995, p. 8).