Here is a few I can think of End games that are drawn.

1. Bishop+King -- King
2- Knight+King -- King
3.( 2 ) Knight + King -- King
4.( 2 ) Bishop + King -- King
5. Knight + Bishop + King -- King

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

What about below combinations are they draw?

Rook+king -- Queen + King?
Rook+King -- Knight + King?
Rook + King -- Bishop +King?

Queen +King -- Knight + King?
Queen +King -- Bishop +King?

Are there any other combination where the Game is drawn? As I will use
it for automatic Draw at GetClub Chess.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Sanny, here are 2 useful exercises you can conduct to explore what are
called MAMS studies. [what you ask below you can get from almost any
beginning chess book]

I would like you to set up 2 positions, and see if your program can solve
them - they are called Kling&Horwitz Fortresses.

[for historical interest these positions went unsolved since 1851 - and
credit for challenging them goes to John Roycroft /Test Tube Chess/ 1972]

Evidently Timman understood this well enough, since the first GM win was
over Speelman 1992 Linares.

(A) this is the easy one - set up
White: Kd5, Ba4, Bf8
Black: Kb6, Nh1

that's easy, no? if too easy try the N on f2 - now, here comes the hard one:

(B)
White: Kd7, Bb3, Bh6
Black: Ke5, Ne4

solve.

this (B) makes 'the fortress' which went unsolved for 150 years. [ if anyone
has another engine, try it, taking note of the number of moves grin ]

Phil Innes



"Sanny" wrote in message
...
Here is a few I can think of End games that are drawn.

1. Bishop+King -- King
2- Knight+King -- King
3.( 2 ) Knight + King -- King
4.( 2 ) Bishop + King -- King
5. Knight + Bishop + King -- King

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

What about below combinations are they draw?

Rook+king -- Queen + King?
Rook+King -- Knight + King?
Rook + King -- Bishop +King?

Queen +King -- Knight + King?
Queen +King -- Bishop +King?

Are there any other combination where the Game is drawn? As I will use
it for automatic Draw at GetClub Chess.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On Dec 3, 4:23 am, Sanny wrote:
Here is a few I can think of End games that are drawn.


Let's assume in the following that nothing is en prise or
can be won in a simple forced sequence.

1. Bishop+King -- King
2- Knight+King -- King

These two are drawn. It is easy to show that there
is no possible mating position.

3.( 2 ) Knight + King -- King

This is drawn with best play from the defending
side. A mating position exists, but can only come about
if the weaker side blunders.

4.( 2 ) Bishop + King -- King

This is an easy win.

5. Knight + Bishop + King -- King

This is also a win, though more difficult.

What about below combinations are they draw?


Rook+king -- Queen + King?

Almost always a win, except where tactics give the weaker side a draw
- in a few positions stalemate
swindles are possible, for example. Mating positions
obviously exist for the side with the rook, also.

Rook+King -- Knight + King?
Rook + King -- Bishop +King?

No general rule is possible. These are sometimes
drawn, sometimes a win for the stronger side. The
player with the rook can selfmate against the player
with the knight.


Queen +King -- Knight + King?
Queen +King -- Bishop +King?

Easy wins.

Are there any other combination where the Game is drawn? As I will use
it for automatic Draw at GetClub Chess.

Then you should only apply this to (1) and (2) above.

There is no possible mating position with king and bishop vs king and
bishop of the same colour, so you should add that one.

William Hyde

On Dec 3, 8:23 am, "Chess One" wrote:


(B)
White: Kd7, Bb3, Bh6
Black: Ke5, Ne4

This is a very trivial draw, white has 11 drawing moves and only a few
silly losing moves like 1. Ba4??. The fortress seens easy to find, but
since today we know so many, it makes finding such things easier. Can
you give the year in which it was thought to be won and the year it
was declared drawn, since you state it has a 150 year lag until it was
found drawn (at least that is how I interpreted your "Philish"). I
can't locate my "Domination" book (the classic on all piece captures
in these endings leading to a win), are you saying that until the 5
man tablebases were developed, it was thought to be a win? I can't
believe that those Russian composers working in the dead of winter
didn't find it.....

"SBD" wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 8:23 am, "Chess One" wrote:


(B)
White: Kd7, Bb3, Bh6
Black: Ke5, Ne4

This is a very trivial draw, white has 11 drawing moves and only a few
silly losing moves like 1. Ba4??.

According to the tablebases, White wins in 64. It's apparently only a draw
because of the 50-move rule, so trivial hardly seems an apt description of
the position.



The fortress seens easy to find, but
since today we know so many, it makes finding such things easier. Can
you give the year in which it was thought to be won and the year it
was declared drawn, since you state it has a 150 year lag until it was
found drawn (at least that is how I interpreted your "Philish"). I
can't locate my "Domination" book (the classic on all piece captures
in these endings leading to a win), are you saying that until the 5
man tablebases were developed, it was thought to be a win? I can't
believe that those Russian composers working in the dead of winter
didn't find it.....

"David Kane" wrote in message
...

"SBD" wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 8:23 am, "Chess One" wrote:


(B)
White: Kd7, Bb3, Bh6
Black: Ke5, Ne4

This is a very trivial draw, white has 11 drawing moves and only a few
silly losing moves like 1. Ba4??.

According to the tablebases, White wins in 64. It's apparently only a draw
because of the 50-move rule, so trivial hardly seems an apt description of
the position.


Actually White may be able to force the win of the knight in less than
50 moves, in which case it isn't a draw. Has anyone developed
a perfect tablebase package that accurately accounts for the 50-move rule?




The fortress seens easy to find, but
since today we know so many, it makes finding such things easier. Can
you give the year in which it was thought to be won and the year it
was declared drawn, since you state it has a 150 year lag until it was
found drawn (at least that is how I interpreted your "Philish"). I
can't locate my "Domination" book (the classic on all piece captures
in these endings leading to a win), are you saying that until the 5
man tablebases were developed, it was thought to be a win? I can't
believe that those Russian composers working in the dead of winter
didn't find it.....

Sanny wrote:
Here is a few I can think of End games that are drawn.

1. Bishop+King -- King
2- Knight+King -- King
3.( 2 ) Knight + King -- King
4.( 2 ) Bishop + King -- King
5. Knight + Bishop + King -- King

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

What about below combinations are they draw?

Rook+king -- Queen + King?
Rook+King -- Knight + King?
Rook + King -- Bishop +King?

Queen +King -- Knight + King?
Queen +King -- Bishop +King?

Are there any other combination where the Game is drawn? As I will use
it for automatic Draw at GetClub Chess.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

You're confusing two different cases he positions in which a win is
_impossible_ (e.g. K+B vs. K), and positions which are drawn _with
best play_ (Iike K+R vs. K+N). In answer to your specific questions: K
+Q vs. K+R = win except in a few problem positions; K+R vs. K+N =
drawn from the general case, but there are losing positions if the N
is too close to a corner; K+R vs. K+B = drawn from the general case if
you know the right way but easy to lose; K+Q vs K+N (or B) = easy
win.

Perhaps I'm misreading it, but your first paragraph seems to be
including K+B+N vs. K and K+B+B vs King under the draws. Both are
forced wins, though non-trivial. Also worth mentioning is K+N+N vs. K
-- theoretical draw but _possible_ to lose if the defender plays
stupidly.

On Dec 3, 2:31 pm, "David Kane" wrote:

Mea culpa. I had the second bishop down as a Bauern - a pawn - when I
trade positions with my Gemrna friends we use the B - sigh.

"SBD" wrote in message

...

On Dec 3, 8:23 am, "Chess One" wrote:

(B)
White: Kd7, Bb3, Bh6
Black: Ke5, Ne4

This is a very trivial draw, white has 11 drawing moves and only a few
silly losing moves like 1. Ba4??.

According to the tablebases, White wins in 64. It's apparently only a draw
because of the 50-move rule, so trivial hardly seems an apt description of
the position.

The fortress seens easy to find, but

since today we know so many, it makes finding such things easier. Can
you give the year in which it was thought to be won and the year it
was declared drawn, since you state it has a 150 year lag until it was
found drawn (at least that is how I interpreted your "Philish"). I
can't locate my "Domination" book (the classic on all piece captures
in these endings leading to a win), are you saying that until the 5
man tablebases were developed, it was thought to be a win? I can't
believe that those Russian composers working in the dead of winter
didn't find it.....

On Dec 3, 4:23 am, Sanny wrote:

Here is a few I can think of End games that are drawn.

1. Bishop+King -- King
2- Knight+King -- King
3.( 2 ) Knight + King -- King
4.( 2 ) Bishop + King -- King
5. Knight + Bishop + King -- King

Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

What about below combinations are they draw?

Rook+king -- Queen + King?
Rook+King -- Knight + King?
Rook + King -- Bishop +King?

Queen +King -- Knight + King?
Queen +King -- Bishop +King?

Are there any other combination where the Game is drawn? As I will use
it for automatic Draw at GetClub Chess.


Since your program cannot be expected to detect
all conceivable drawn positions, it is wise to focus
on the simplest ones first:

K vs. K = insufficient [i.e. nonexistent] mating material

K&N vs. K = insufficient mating material

K&B vs. K = insufficient mating material

K&B vs. K&(B of the same color) = ditto

--------------

Look at the following position:

White: Kd1, pawns on a4, d4, g4

Black: Kd8, pawns on a5, d5, g5


It is impossible for either side to make any
headway because the pawns are fixed and
there exist no legal entry squares for the
Kings, so this too is drawn. However, for
the GetClub program to detect this kind of
draw, it would require connection to an
/artificial intelligence/ (like IM Innes' brain, for
instance).

The other examples at the top of this post
were not draws in this respect; some are
draws with best play and some are wins with
best play, but either way their cases are
handled by the threefold-repetition rule or by
the fifty-moves draw rule.


-- help bot

On Dec 4, 12:10 pm, help bot wrote:
On Dec 3, 4:23 am, Sanny wrote:





Here is a few I can think of End games that are drawn.

1. Bishop+King -- King
2- Knight+King -- King
3.( 2 ) Knight + King -- King
4.( 2 ) Bishop + King -- King
5. Knight + Bishop + King -- King

PlayChessat:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

What about below combinations are they draw?

Rook+king -- Queen + King?
Rook+King -- Knight + King?
Rook + King -- Bishop +King?

Queen +King -- Knight + King?
Queen +King -- Bishop +King?

Are there any other combination where the Game is drawn? As I will use
it for automatic Draw atGetClubChess.

Since your program cannot be expected to detect
all conceivable drawn positions, it is wise to focus
on the simplest ones first:

K vs. K = insufficient [i.e. nonexistent] mating material

K&N vs. K = insufficient mating material

K&B vs. K = insufficient mating material

K&B vs. K&(B of the same color) = ditto

--------------

Look at the following position:

White: Kd1, pawns on a4, d4, g4

Black: Kd8, pawns on a5, d5, g5

It is impossible for either side to make any
headway because the pawns are fixed and
there exist no legal entry squares for the
Kings, so this too is drawn. However, for
theGetClubprogram to detect this kind of
draw, it would require connection to an
/artificial intelligence/ (like IM Innes' brain, for
instance).

The other examples at the top of this post
were not draws in this respect; some are
draws with best play and some are wins with
best play, but either way their cases are
handled by the threefold-repetition rule or by
the fifty-moves draw rule.

-- help bot- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now all Draw positions has been Added. So if the Game ends and it
finds Bishop vs Rook, Knight vs King or any other combination it will
End Game with a Draw instead of Playing in Drawn Position.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Lets see if it works Correctly.

Play a few games with Beginner Level & See if it sees Draws Correctly
or not.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html