Sanny wrote:

It will only devlare a difficult drawish game to a Draw. And with Draw
games you do not loose Ratings.



So, it plays incorrectly, and it rates incorrectly?

Is there anything it does correctly?

--
Kenneth Sloan
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/

If you win the game with good margin it will never be able to cheat
you. Only when the game ends in a Draw It can take little Benefit.

It will only devlare a difficult drawish game to a Draw. And with Draw
games you do not loose Ratings.

There is only one word for this: stupid. GitClub should play chess,
not some strange variant with its own rules about when you win and
"loose."

On May 1, 4:20 am, Sanny wrote:

When mere incompetence is the problem,
the results are *random*, favoring either side
in no particular pattern. AtGetClub, the
result is always a free win or draw for your
program. Just look at the reported win/loss

Ok what about.

1. Humans can take as much time as needed?


Good point. For rated games, you could place
a limit, so that the poor microprocessor is not so
vastly outclassed by us "speedy" thinkers, by
humans.


2. Human can take help of Opening Books?


True. Especially with the lack of time limits, if I
want I can go to, say, chessopenings.com and
try -- I say TRY -- to find some info on what line
we are playing. Or I could crack open a chess
book or two; your program can't do that.


3. Humans can take help from other Chess Computers?


This is obviously a problem. Zebediah, for instance,
is clearly operating a decent chess program, against
which your Java applet has no real chance. I don't
have an answer to this problem; but if you wanted to,
you could arbitrarily "ban" players you believe are
"cheating", just as you quite arbitrarily do so many
other things.


So Humans have a lot of opportunity to cheat the poor GetClub Program.


True. So then, your reasoning is that two wrongs
make a right (that's incorrect math, by the way).


If you win the game with good margin it will never be able to cheat
you.


Oh, I have had all sorts of different margins by
which I was winning, only to be cheated one way
or another. I don't think it has anything to do
with /margins/.


Only when the game ends in a Draw It can take little Benefit.


But the game did not end in a draw; it was a win
for me! :D

The way I see it, your Web site simply has the
wrong result recorded, and the wrong ratings as a
result. Even *if* the game had to be adjudicated
at that point -- let's say that WWIII broke out or
something crazy like that -- the correct adjudica-
tion was a win for me. I cannot be held responsible
if you and all your loony programmers are insane... .
:D


It will only devlare a difficult drawish game to a Draw. And with Draw
games you do not loose Ratings.


I am not going to studiously avoid winning by
trading down to certain endings, just because
your Web site doesn't know the rules of chess.
Chess, you see, is a game, and in these we all
have to accept the actual rules-- otherwise we
can't play! It's like Mr. Kasparov, who decided
that the touch-move rule did not apply if he was
going to hang a piece-- or rather, thought he
was. That's not real chess.


-- help bot

On May 1, 9:59 am, Kenneth Sloan wrote:
Sanny wrote:

It will only devlare a difficult drawish game to a Draw. And with Draw
games you do not loose Ratings.

So, it plays incorrectly, and it rates incorrectly?

Is there anything it does correctly?


It seems to always get the correct position set up
at the beginning, and oddly enough, it also seems
to play legal moves -- except the final one which we
are not supposed to "see", where it moves its King
into check.

A few issues remaining:


1) improper handling of draws and draw claims;

2) advance level is nearly impossible to play,
unless you are operating a 3000-rated monster
which crushes the program *quickly*;

3) sometimes the program goes into a deep
think, on move one, as White;

4) when there is but one legal move, the GC
program may think for an hour before deciding
which move to play.


-- help bot

Sanny wrote:
When mere incompetence is the problem,
the results are *random*, favoring either side
in no particular pattern. AtGetClub, the
result is always a free win or draw for your
program. Just look at the reported win/loss

Ok what about.

1. Humans can take as much time as needed?

So can your program.

2. Human can take help of Opening Books?

So can your program.

3. Humans can take help from other Chess Computers?

So can your program

So Humans have a lot of opportunity to cheat the poor GetClub Program.

And the GetClub Program has a log of opportunities to cheat the humans.

The difference is that you have no evidence that any human has cheate -
while we have lots of evidence that your program cheats on a regular basis.


--
Kenneth Sloan
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/

I remember once GetClub had 2 bishop and it was unable to give the
Mate and Help Bot had to resign. Then Help Bot Complained this game is
draw and I had to Resign to finish the game.

So now when Opponent has 2 Bishops Left I declared it a draw.

Now, you are saying It is a Win?

If I give it a Win in your case then why not give it a win for
GetClubs case.

Same situation both player has to be given same set of rules.

If having 2 Bishops is draw when GetClub have them, then same is true
for the Opponent.

Moreove when the Game is Drawn your Rating is not affected. So in such
case atleast you do not loose any point.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On May 2, 9:28*am, Sanny wrote:
I remember once GetClub had 2 bishop and it was unable to give the
Mate and Help Bot had to resign. Then Help Bot Complained this game is
draw and I had to Resign to finish the game.

Help Bot is correct. If the program is so clueless that it cannot
execute the mate for KBBk then it is a draw under the 50 move rule.

So now when Opponent has 2 Bishops Left I declared it a draw.

Now, you are saying It is a Win?

YES! It is a fairly simple win for anyone with a modicum of chess
intelligence.
You basically squeeze the enemy king right into a corner and then
arrange a checkmate. KBNk is slightly harder (especially so in under
50 moves against an engine using tablebases).

If I give it a Win in your case then why not give it a win for
GetClubs case.

Because GetClub doesn't know how to win the position.

Same situation both player has to be given same set of rules.

If having 2 Bishops is draw when GetClub have them, then same is true
for the Opponent.

Not at all. If the opponent has more than two brain cells to rub
together he will win. One such winning position with the unlucky loser
trapped in a corner looks like this.
_____________
| k | | | |
| | B | | |
| | K | | B |

It should be obvious what the last move for each side was.

Moreove when the Game is Drawn your Rating is not affected. So in such
case atleast you do not loose any point.

Yes. But I would feel cheated if having got to a KBBk, KBNk position
it was declared a draw by a program too stupid to win from that
position. Just because your program cannot win from these positions
(and so must accept a draw) does not mean that a human cannot win.

Your choices are to add a few choice heuristics to the endgame
evaluation function when the number of pieces is 4 or less and/or to
implement basic tablebases for the classic 3 & 4 piece endgames.

These would be roughly (in both KBBk and KBNk) to:

Make the winning sides king bolder and take the opposition with the
enemy king.
Restrict the mobility of the enemy king to 2 or 3 moves where
possible.
Restrict the region of the board available to the enemy king.
Winning side scores for forcing enemy king to edge of board, bonus for
corners.
Avoid stalemates (stating the obvious)

Losing side should aim to stay as near the centre of the board as
possible and maximise his mobility.

I suspect though I have not tried it that these heuristics in eval
would be enough to get a 10 ply search in range of seeing the mates
with minor pieces fairly reliably.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Sanny wrote:
I remember once GetClub had 2 bishop and it was unable to give the
Mate and Help Bot had to resign. Then Help Bot Complained this game is
draw and I had to Resign to finish the game.

So now when Opponent has 2 Bishops Left I declared it a draw.

Now, you are saying It is a Win?

If I give it a Win in your case then why not give it a win for
GetClubs case.

Because GetClub doesn't know how to achieve the win. Everyone else does.



--
Kenneth Sloan
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/

* I am not going to studiously avoid winning by
trading down to certain endings, just because
your Web site doesn't know the rules ofchess.Chess, you see, is a game, and in these we all
have to accept the actual rules-- otherwise we
can't play! *It's like Mr. Kasparov, who decided
that the touch-move rule did not apply if he was
going to hang a piece-- or rather, thought he
was. *That's not realchess.

Ok thing has been Corrected. Now when someone has 2 Bishops game will
not stop there and you will be allowed to finish the game. And incase
computer is unable to bring Mate you have to Resign to end the game.

Naturally getting 2 extra Bishops is worth getting a win.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Is there anything it does correctly?

*It seems to always get the correct position set up
at the beginning, and oddly enough, it also seems
to play legal moves -- except the final one which we
are not supposed to "see", where it moves its King
into check.

Ok thing has been Corrected. Now when someone has 2 Bishops game will
not stop there and you will be allowed to finish the game. And incase
computer is unable to bring Mate you have to Resign to end the game.

Naturally getting 2 extra Bishops is worth getting a win.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html