Here is a game where Master Level has 2 Rooks left with 6 pawns and
Help Bot has Rook and Knight and 7 Pawns.


So Help Bot had Knight+Pawn vs Rook. So Master Level was at advantage
at Rook is equal to Knight + 2 Pawns while Help bot had only 1 extra
pawn.

But Help Bot advanced its pawns and killed many pawns of GetClub.

End Game is very weak So GetClub lost many pawns and in end Help Bot
got the Queen & win.

Till 25th move GetClub was at advantage of 1 Pawn. But after that what
happened that it lost the game?

Please tell me which were the wrong moves and what should GetClub had
done to get a win.

Game Played between help bot and master at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
master: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...686&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(master) -- (help bot)

1. d2-d4{1320} Ng8-f6{14}
2. Nb1-c3{4382} d7-d5{16}
3. Ng1-f3{2716} e7-e6{38}
4. Nf3-e5{2414} Nb8-d7{78}
5. a2-a3{1808} Nd7-e5{62}
6. d4-e5{1752} Nf6-d7{24}
7. e2-e4{2850} d5-e4{112}
8. Bc1-f4{1520} Bf8-e7{184}
9. Nc3-e4{2134} Ke8-g8{34}
10. Bf1-d3{1974} Qd8-e8{260}
11. Ke1-g1{2426} Nd7-b6{182}
12. Qd1-g4{1738} Kg8-h8{30}
13. Ne4-f6{1762} Be7-f6{500}
14. e5-f6{1448} g7-g6{44}
15. Bf4-h6{1974} Rf8-g8{448}
16. Ra1-d1{5230} Bc8-d7{584}
17. Rf1-e1{2790} Bd7-c6{422}
18. Bh6-g7{2068} Rg8-g7{44}
19. f6-g7{2460} Kh8-g7{10}
20. Qg4-f4{1436} Qe8-e7{120}
21. Bd3-e4{1350} Bc6-e4{70}
22. Qf4-e5{2276} Qe7-f6{124}
23. Qe5-f6{1314} Kg7-f6{8}
24. Re1-e4{2328} Kf6-e7{50}
25. Rd1-d4{1304} h7-h5{308} {GetClub is up one Pawn.}
26. b2-b4{3836} a7-a5{1178}
27. b4-b5{1934} Ra8-c8{58}
28. c2-c3{1996} c7-c5{486}
29. Rd4-d2{2286} c5-c4{154}
30. Rd2-d4{2012} Rc8-c5{130}
31. a3-a4{2130} f7-f5{94}
32. Re4-e3{3476} Nb6-a4{134}
33. h2-h4{1632} e6-e5{94}
34. f2-f4{1776} e5-e4{132}
35. Re3-g3{1772} Rc5-b5{408}
36. Rd4-c4{3608} Na4-b2{200}
37. Rc4-d4{1310} Rb5-b6{120}
38. c3-c4{1548} Nb2-d3{46}
39. c4-c5{1914} Nd3-c5{42}
40. Rg3-e3{2512} Rb6-b1{172}
41. Kg1-h2{2136} b7-b5{60}
42. Rd4-d5{1344} Nc5-e6{72}
43. g2-g3{2708} Rb1-b2{162}
44. Kh2-h3{1586} Ne6-c7{154}
45. Rd5-d3{2440} b5-b4{1066}
46. Rd3-d1{4880} a5-a4{60}
47. Re3-e1{6504} a4-a3{88}
48. Re1-f1{5490} a3-a2{62}
49. Rd1-c1{7012} Nc7-d5{70}
50. Rf1-e1{2008} Nd5-c3{40}
51. Rc1-c3{4706} b4-c3{36}
52. Re1-a1{330} c3-c2{48}
53. g3-g4{3172} h5-g4{44}
54. Kh3-g3{470} Rb2-b3{78}
55. Kg3-g2{512} Rb3-a3{42}
56. Kg2-f1{350} Rc2-c1{R}{28}
57. Ra1-c1{356} Qa2-a1{Q}{50}
58. Rc1-a1{358} Ra3-a1{6}
59. Kf1-f2{502} Ke7-e6{40}
60. Kf2-e2{808} g4-g3{32}
61. Ke2-d2{600} Ra1-a3{44}
62. Kd2-c2{1180} Ra3-d3{22}
63. h4-h5{612} g6-h5{14}
64. Kc2-b2{
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
master: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...686&game=Chess


Let me know why GetClub lost despite being ahead by 1 Pawn?

What should getclub have done to win this game.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Sanny wrote:

Here is a game where Master Level has 2 Rooks left with 6 pawns and
Help Bot has Rook and Knight and 7 Pawns.


So Help Bot had Knight+Pawn vs Rook. So Master Level was at advantage
at Rook is equal to Knight + 2 Pawns while Help bot had only 1 extra
pawn.

But Help Bot advanced its pawns and killed many pawns of GetClub.

It seems Getclub has all the skill of a lemming in the endgame
transition. Several of its moves are lamentably bad here.

End Game is very weak So GetClub lost many pawns and in end Help Bot
got the Queen & win.

Till 25th move GetClub was at advantage of 1 Pawn. But after that what
happened that it lost the game?

At around move 12 Getclub had a considerable advantage - sufficient that
any decent modern program should have won against a human.

Please tell me which were the wrong moves and what should GetClub had
done to get a win.

Taken a bit more care of its pawns and computed the exchanges more
accurately. It needs to know that once it has a material advantage the
fastest way to win is to swap off pieces in equal exchanges and preserve
pawns (and conversely to avoid that when down on material).

Also it needs to understand that leaving your king sat in a prepared
back rank mate trap is never a good idea - especially not when one of
the best moves on the board is to advance f4.

White -- Black
(master) -- (help bot)

1. d2-d4{1320} Ng8-f6{14}
2. Nb1-c3{4382} d7-d5{16}
3. Ng1-f3{2716} e7-e6{38}
4. Nf3-e5{2414} Nb8-d7{78}
5. a2-a3{1808} Nd7-e5{62}
6. d4-e5{1752} Nf6-d7{24}
7. e2-e4{2850} d5-e4{112}
8. Bc1-f4{1520} Bf8-e7{184}
9. Nc3-e4{2134} Ke8-g8{34}
10. Bf1-d3{1974} Qd8-e8{260}
10. .... f5/f6 is better
11. Ke1-g1{2426} Nd7-b6{182}
10. .... f5/f6 is better
12. Qd1-g4{1738} Kg8-h8{30}

At this point Getclub is winning handsomely. 12. Nf6+ is probably
slightly better but Qg4 is OK (12. ... h5 is playable then).

13. Ne4-f6{1762} Be7-f6{500}
14. e5-f6{1448} g7-g6{44}
15. Bf4-h6{1974} Rf8-g8{448}
16. Ra1-d1{5230} Bc8-d7{584}
17. Rf1-e1{2790} Bd7-c6{422}
18. Bh6-g7{2068} Rg8-g7{44}

This squanders the tension built up against blacks king.
18. b4/Qg3/Qf4 all OK here. Still OK

19. f6-g7{2460} Kh8-g7{10}
20. Qg4-f4{1436} Qe8-e7{120}
21. Bd3-e4{1350} Bc6-e4{70}
22. Qf4-e5{2276} Qe7-f6{124}

Spite check. 22. Qxe4 c6 is best for white

23. Qe5-f6{1314} Kg7-f6{8}

Still at least this way you swap of queens.

24. Re1-e4{2328} Kf6-e7{50}
25. Rd1-d4{1304} h7-h5{308} {GetClub is up one Pawn.}

25. Rdd4 is a dreadful move (ranked 22/37). 25. f4/f3 or Kf1 are OK.
The king is sat in a ready made back rank mate!

26. b2-b4{3836} a7-a5{1178}

Engine prefers 26. Rd1 (yes the last move was *that* bad)
f4/f3/b3/Kf1 all playable

27. b4-b5{1934} Ra8-c8{58}
28. c2-c3{1996} c7-c5{486}

Again a poor move 28. c3 ranks 16/29 Getclub should still be able to
hold a draw or win here with 20 of the 32 possible moves

29. Rd4-d2{2286} c5-c4{154}

Either 29. Rd1 or bxc6 (en passant) were needed to hold the advantage
which is now wafer thin. Still looks a pretty good draw though.

30. Rd2-d4{2012} Rc8-c5{130}
31. a3-a4{2130} f7-f5{94}

Playing like a complete patzer now.
31. a4 defends b5 but the pawn on a4 is itself en prise.
Only f4 holds on to the game.

32. Re4-e3{3476} Nb6-a4{134}
33. h2-h4{1632} e6-e5{94}
34. f2-f4{1776} e5-e4{132}

Finally f4 but too late to do any good.
Now black has a resource that Helpbot didn't spot in the game
34. ... Nxc3
if 35. RxN exR

34. Rd1 is the best of a bad bunch.
Not worth analysing further. Painful to watch.

Let me know why GetClub lost despite being ahead by 1 Pawn?

What should getclub have done to win this game.

Understand some of the basics of positional play.

Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Let me know whyGetClublost despite being ahead by 1 Pawn?

What shouldgetclubhave done to win this game.

Understand some of the basics of positional play.

What are the basis of Positional play? I think now only End game is
poor. Please tell me what need to be done in End Game?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On Jun 12, 11:31 am, Sanny wrote:

Let me know whyGetClublost despite being ahead by 1 Pawn?

What shouldgetclubhave done to win this game.

Understand some of the basics of positional play.

What are the basis of Positional play? I think now only End game is
poor. Please tell me what need to be done in End Game?

I am curious to know how the exact ranking of
moves is determined by Mr. Brown. When I look
over games, the engine will "obsess over" what it
sees as the single best move, then blitz through
all the alternatives so quickly that I simply can't
even see what they were.

In his commentary above, Mr. Brown even
appears to know which moves are scored as
winning, drawing, or losing.

------------

As for positional play, I think this is a perfect
example of why computers don't have to excel
in that particular area. A strong /positional/
player dreads moving any of the pawns in
front of his King, because that creates a
weakness. For instance, when White plays
p-h3, he weakens the g3 square-- even if it
may still be defended by the f2-pawn; that's
because the f2-pawn may get pinned at some
point-- let's say by ...Q-b6 or ...B-c5.

But when it comes to /tactical/ play, having
one's home pawns in perfect order -- as White
did in this game -- means that the back rank
itself can become weak. Thus, when you get
into a Rook ending like this one, it is wise to
forget about /positional/ nuances, and make
sure you cover the obvious, tactical issues
like a back rank mate possibility.

Let's back up a little here. Do you know
why I did not want to play ...p-c5? Because,
it left a "hole" at d6-- a /potential/ entry point
for a White Rook. The other entry points, d8
and d7, were covered by my Rook, King, and
Knight, so that left only d6, and of course any
lateral attacks. No doubt a computer analysis
can tell us that entry to d6 was pointless or
impossible here, but a /positional/ player does
not care-- such weaknesses are avoided as a
matter of principle, just like tripled pawns are.

[Note: I have tripled pawns against Rob "da
robber" Mitchell, but that doesn't count!]

In this particular case, the back rank mate
could have been handled by leaving either
Rook on the first rank, or, by sliding the King
one square /toward the center/; as we saw,
the White monarch ended up trapped out of
play at h3-- a terrible square, as far as it
could conceivably get from being able to aid
in stopping the Black pawns from promoting.

A crazed, "tactical piece player" will often
sacrifice his own pawns like cannon fodder,
seeing them mainly as obstacles which
obstruct his pieces. But a "boring, positional
player" is more likely to view his pawns as
valuable assets, which of course he intends
to convert into Queens one day in the distant
future. Until that day, the pawns serve as a
shield, behind which he marshals his pieces.

White began to go wrong in the ending by
not playing p-f4-- a move which stopped any
back-rank-mate threats and at the same
time afforded the White King an avenue by
which to rapidly approach the center, *when
safe*. This is also a minority attack, in which
White's three king-side pawns (or any portion
thereof) advance to be traded for Black's four
on the same side, leaving Black with a weak
/isolani/.

But the real problem was the aimless Rook
moves, which allowed Black time to activate
his Rook, eat a pawn or two, and even run
both connected, passed pawns all the way
up the board! The two White Rooks shuffled
back and forth, accomplishing nothing, while
the White King refused to even take part in
the war. As usual, it became a contest in
which I effectively had an extra piece-- my
King. It was deja vu, all over again.


-- help bot

On Jun 12, 9:26*pm, help bot wrote:
On Jun 12, 11:31 am, Sanny wrote:

Let me know whyGetClublost despite being ahead by 1 Pawn?

What shouldgetclubhave done to win this game.
Understand some of the basics of positional play.
What are the basis of Positional play? I think now only End game is
poor. Please tell me what need to be done in End Game?

* I am curious to know how the exact ranking of
moves is determined by Mr. Brown. *When I look
over games, the engine will "obsess over" what it
sees as the single best move, then blitz through
all the alternatives so quickly that I simply can't
even see what they were.

* In his commentary above, Mr. Brown even
appears to know which moves are scored as
winning, drawing, or losing.

------------

* As for positional play, I think this is a perfect
example of why computers don't have to excel
in that particular area. *A strong /positional/
player dreads moving any of the pawns in
front of his King, because that creates a
weakness. *For instance, when White plays
p-h3, he weakens the g3 square-- even if it
may still be defended by the f2-pawn; that's
because the f2-pawn may get pinned at some
point-- let's say by ...Q-b6 or ...B-c5.

* But when it comes to /tactical/ play, having
one's home pawns in perfect order -- as White
did in this game -- means that the back rank
itself can become weak. *Thus, when you get
into a Rook ending like this one, it is wise to
forget about /positional/ nuances, and make
sure you cover the obvious, tactical issues
like a back rank mate possibility.

* Let's back up a little here. *Do you know
why I did not want to play ...p-c5? *Because,
it left a "hole" at d6-- a /potential/ entry point
for a White Rook. *The other entry points, d8
and d7, were covered by my Rook, King, and
Knight, so that left only d6, and of course any
lateral attacks. *No doubt a computer analysis
can tell us that entry to d6 was pointless or
impossible here, but a /positional/ player does
not care-- such weaknesses are avoided as a
matter of principle, just like tripled pawns are.

[Note: I have tripled pawns against Rob "da
robber" Mitchell, but that doesn't count!]

* In this particular case, the back rank mate
could have been handled by leaving either
Rook on the first rank, or, by sliding the King
one square /toward the center/; as we saw,
the White monarch ended up trapped out of
play at h3-- a terrible square, as far as it
could conceivably get from being able to aid
in stopping the Black pawns from promoting.

* A crazed, "tactical piece player" will often
sacrifice his own pawns like cannon fodder,
seeing them mainly as obstacles which
obstruct his pieces. *But a "boring, positional
player" is more likely to view his pawns as
valuable assets, which of course he intends
to convert into Queens one day in the distant
future. *Until that day, the pawns serve as a
shield, behind which he marshals his pieces.

* White began to go wrong in the ending by
not playing p-f4-- a move which stopped any
back-rank-mate threats and at the same
time afforded the White King an avenue by
which to rapidly approach the center, *when
safe*. *This is also a minority attack, in which
White's three king-side pawns (or any portion
thereof) advance to be traded for Black's four
on the same side, leaving Black with a weak
/isolani/.

* But the real problem was the aimless Rook
moves, which allowed Black time to activate
his Rook, eat a pawn or two, and even run
both connected, passed pawns all the way
up the board! *The two White Rooks shuffled
back and forth, accomplishing nothing, while
the White King refused to even take part in
the war. *As usual, it became a contest in
which I effectively had an extra piece-- my
King. *It was deja vu, all over again.

That was nice explanation.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

help bot wrote:
On Jun 12, 11:31 am, Sanny wrote:

Let me know whyGetClublost despite being ahead by 1 Pawn?
What shouldgetclubhave done to win this game.

Understand some of the basics of positional play.

What are the basis of Positional play? I think now only End game is
poor. Please tell me what need to be done in End Game?

I am curious to know how the exact ranking of
moves is determined by Mr. Brown. When I look
over games, the engine will "obsess over" what it
sees as the single best move, then blitz through
all the alternatives so quickly that I simply can't
even see what they were.

In his commentary above, Mr. Brown even
appears to know which moves are scored as
winning, drawing, or losing.

Mr Brown seems a bit formal. Martin is fine.

I am running the ChessBase GUI Chessprogram9 (although the previous
version 8 would do it the behaviour there is less than ideal). Most of
the analysis is done using my favourite engine Shredder 10.

What I have been doing to analyse these games is run them through
blundercheck to get saved positional scores for the game. Then I play
through to look for interesting positions where I see big jumps without
adequate annotation or a line that I think would work being ignored.

Selecting "Game", "infinite analysis" from the menu opens a window that
shows initially the top PV, but by clicking on "+" and "-" buttons you
can add or subtract lines of play to look at the top N continuations. In
this mode while I am looking at it on screen the engine is evaluating
the top N contenders for a continuation. There is a significant time
penalty but if you are playing through the game it hardly matters. It is
interesting to browse opening books in this mode looking for traps.

For each of the top ranked moves I can see the engine score and the PV
at the current search ply (they go bold as the next ply is added).

It may take an few hours to get to play 23 or so. The only catch is if
any of the lines displayed resolve out to a mate in N and the search
depth exceeds 2N it grinds to a standstill and has to be restarted.

I have to hit the "+" button a lot to see some of Getclubs moves!

White began to go wrong in the ending by
not playing p-f4-- a move which stopped any
back-rank-mate threats and at the same
time afforded the White King an avenue by
which to rapidly approach the center, *when
safe*. This is also a minority attack, in which
White's three king-side pawns (or any portion
thereof) advance to be traded for Black's four
on the same side, leaving Black with a weak
/isolani/.

Absolutely. Worse still when it finally did play it the move was far too
late to do anything useful.

But the real problem was the aimless Rook
moves, which allowed Black time to activate
his Rook, eat a pawn or two, and even run
both connected, passed pawns all the way
up the board! The two White Rooks shuffled
back and forth, accomplishing nothing, while
the White King refused to even take part in
the war. As usual, it became a contest in
which I effectively had an extra piece-- my
King. It was deja vu, all over again.

The gratuitous pawn sacrifice on a4 also helped a lot.

Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Jun 12, 5:28 pm, Martin Brown
wrote:

I am curious to know how the exact ranking of
moves is determined by Mr. Brown. When I look
over games, the engine will "obsess over" what it
sees as the single best move, then blitz through
all the alternatives so quickly that I simply can't
even see what they were.

I am running the ChessBase GUI Chessprogram9 (although the previous
version 8 would do it the behaviour there is less than ideal). Most of
the analysis is done using my favourite engine Shredder 10.

What I have been doing to analyse these games is run them through
blundercheck to get saved positional scores for the game. Then I play
through to look for interesting positions where I see big jumps without
adequate annotation or a line that I think would work being ignored.

Selecting "Game", "infinite analysis" from the menu opens a window that
shows initially the top PV, but by clicking on "+" and "-" buttons you
can add or subtract lines of play to look at the top N continuations.

Ah, that sounds familiar. I have used Fritz 5.32 many
times, and it has the plus and minus buttons which add
or subtract lines as you described.


I have to hit the "+" button a lot to see some of Getclubs moves!

Try a reversal: set the program to display the
possibilities, ranked in REVERSE order, worst
to best.


But the real problem was the aimless Rook
moves, which allowed Black time to activate
his Rook, eat a pawn or two, and even run
both connected, passed pawns all the way
up the board! The two White Rooks shuffled
back and forth, accomplishing nothing, while
the White King refused to even take part in
the war. As usual, it became a contest in
which I effectively had an extra piece-- my
King. It was deja vu, all over again.

The gratuitous pawn sacrifice on a4 also helped a lot.

I think that even though the thinking time was
immense and the on screen display may have
indicated a relatively deep search, what was
/really happening/ was that the program may
have been daydreaming about girls... .


-- help bot

it's a loss forGetClub, from either side.

It took me 1 day to understand what you are saying.

Yes Two Rooks are Stronger than Knight+Rook. So GetClub should have
won the game. But incase GetClub had other side still GetClub could
not have won because of poor End Game.

Nowadays a lot of interesting things are happening at GetClub. Just
see the games of Help Bot and Zebediah and you will find a few strange
games.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html