A Chess forum. ChessBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » ChessBanter forum » Chess Newsgroups » rec.games.chess.analysis (Chess Analysis)
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old July 23rd 08, 06:57 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
Sanny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,365
Default 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?

Help Bot (White) Played: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4 there is no opening after
that.

Help Bot win the game by trapping a Knight with his Bishop. I went to
search for this line and found only people with low rating play Bc4.
Higher Rated (2700+) player never play Bc4 Why?

What was wrong with easy Level that it has to lose the Knight? Can you
mark the wrong moves?

Game Played between help bot and easy at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
easy: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...296&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(help bot) -- (easy)

1. e2-e4{8} c7-c5{0}
2. Bf1-c4{10} Nb8-c6{44}
3. Ng1-f3{24} e7-e6{22}
4. Ke1-g1{16} d7-d5{20}
5. e4-d5{10} e6-d5{78}
6. Rf1-e1{6} Bc8-e6{48}
7. Bc4-b5{14} Bf8-d6{24}
8. d2-d4{12} c5-d4{186}
9. Nf3-d4{18} Qd8-d7{28}
10. Nb1-c3{22} Ng8-e7{114}
11. Nd4-e6{132} f7-e6{34}
12. Qd1-g4{16} Ke8-g8{24}
13. Qg4-e6{16} Qd7-e6{42}
14. Re1-e6{8} Ra8-d8{44}
15. Bc1-g5{36} Rf8-e8{82}
16. Ra1-e1{38} Re8-f8{104}
17. Bb5-c6{18} Bd6-c5{134}
18. Bg5-e7{42} Bc5-f2{78}
19. Kg1-h1{26} Bf2-e1{36}
20. Re6-e1{10} b7-c6{34}
21. Be7-d8{26} Rf8-d8{44}
22. Re1-d1{32} Rd8-b8{28}
23. b2-b3{14} g7-g6{48}
24. Kh1-g1{10} Kg8-g7{32}
25. Kg1-f2{26} h7-h6{54}
26. Kf2-e3{28} g6-g5{22}
27. Ke3-d4{24} Rb8-f8{82}
28. Rd1-d2{24} h6-h5{34}
29. Kd4-c5{16} Rf8-f6{28}
30. Nc3-d5{78} c6-d5{20}
31. Kc5-d5{30} h5-h4{104}
32. h2-h3{30} Kg7-g6{50}
33. c2-c4{24} Rf6-f8{60}
34. Kd5-e4{46} Rf8-f4{88}
35. Ke4-e3{14} Rf4-f5{58}
36. b3-b4{34} a7-a6{54}
37. c4-c5{30} Rf5-e5{46}
38. Ke3-d4{26} Re5-e7{68}
39. c5-c6{18} Kg6-h5{54}
40. Rd2-c2{26} Re7-c7{84}
41. a2-a4{24} a6-a5{38}
42. b4-b5{14} Rc7-c8{52}
43. c6-c7{10} Rc8-e8{46}
44. Qc7-c8{Q}{26} Re8-c8{66}
45. Rc2-c8{8} g5-g4{136}
46. Rc8-c5{20} Kh5-g6{22}
47. h3-g4{10} Kg6-h7{48}
48. Rc5-c6{16} Kh7-g7{20}
49. b5-b6{10} Kg7-f7{24}
50. b6-b7{12} h4-h3{34}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
easy: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...296&game=Chess

Its very bad to see how Help Bot win such a strong Opponent so easily.
Can you suggest me First 4 Moves for this Opening "1. e4 c5 2. Bc4" So
that I add the correct Opening.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

  #2  
Old July 23rd 08, 08:34 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
help bot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,302
Default 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?


Sanny wrote:

Help Bot (White) Played: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4 there is no opening after
that.

Help Bot win the game by trapping a Knight with his Bishop. I went to
search for this line and found only people with low rating play Bc4.
Higher Rated (2700+) player never play Bc4 Why?



If you go to chessgames.com you will find that,
until now, it was thought that Black seized the
upper-hand with ...e6, soon followed by ...d5--
kicking White's KB around.

But as this game showed, that plan fails when
countered, not by random piece shuffling, but by
well-considered development along with superb
tactical piece play and flawless technique, not
to mention perfect timing, complete sight of the
board, etc., etc.


What was wrong with easy Level that it has to lose the Knight? Can you
mark the wrong moves?


What, all of them?


White -- Black
(help bot) -- (easy)

1. e2-e4{8} c7-c5{0}
2. Bf1-c4{10} Nb8-c6{44}
3. Ng1-f3{24} e7-e6{22}
4. Ke1-g1{16} d7-d5{20}
5. e4-d5{10} e6-d5{78}
6. Rf1-e1{6} Bc8-e6{48}
7. Bc4-b5{14} Bf8-d6{24}
8. d2-d4{12} *c5-d4* {186}


There's one.


9. Nf3-d4{18} Qd8-d7{28}
10. Nb1-c3{22} Ng8-e7{114}
11. Nd4-e6{132} f7-e6{34}
12. Qd1-g4{16} Ke8-g8{24}
13. Qg4-e6{16} Qd7-e6{42}
14. Re1-e6{8} *Ra8-d8* {44}


There's another.


15. Bc1-g5{36} *Rf8-e8* {82}


Walks right in to a self-pin.


16. Ra1-e1{38} *Re8-f8* {104}


Loses material. Etc.


17. Bb5-c6{18} Bd6-c5{134}
18. Bg5-e7{42} Bc5-f2{78}
19. Kg1-h1{26} Bf2-e1{36}
20. Re6-e1{10} b7-c6{34}
21. Be7-d8{26} Rf8-d8{44}
22. Re1-d1{32} Rd8-b8{28}
23. b2-b3{14} g7-g6{48}
24. Kh1-g1{10} Kg8-g7{32}
25. Kg1-f2{26} h7-h6{54}
26. Kf2-e3{28} g6-g5{22}
27. Ke3-d4{24} Rb8-f8{82}
28. Rd1-d2{24} h6-h5{34}
29. Kd4-c5{16} Rf8-f6{28}
30. Nc3-d5{78} c6-d5{20}
31. Kc5-d5{30} h5-h4{104}
32. h2-h3{30} Kg7-g6{50}
33. c2-c4{24} Rf6-f8{60}
34. Kd5-e4{46} Rf8-f4{88}
35. Ke4-e3{14} Rf4-f5{58}
36. b3-b4{34} a7-a6{54}
37. c4-c5{30} Rf5-e5{46}
38. Ke3-d4{26} Re5-e7{68}
39. c5-c6{18} Kg6-h5{54}
40. Rd2-c2{26} Re7-c7{84}
41. a2-a4{24} a6-a5{38}
42. b4-b5{14} Rc7-c8{52}
43. c6-c7{10} Rc8-e8{46}
44. Qc7-c8{Q}{26} Re8-c8{66}
45. Rc2-c8{8} g5-g4{136}
46. Rc8-c5{20} Kh5-g6{22}
47. h3-g4{10} Kg6-h7{48}
48. Rc5-c6{16} Kh7-g7{20}
49. b5-b6{10} Kg7-f7{24}
50. b6-b7{12} h4-h3{34}


Its very bad to see how Help Bot win such a strong Opponent so easily.



A /strong/ opponent? Where? I don't see
any strong opponent.


Can you suggest me First 4 Moves for this Opening "1. e4 c5 2. Bc4" So
that I add the correct Opening.



As far as I can see, the program did not
go wrong in the very first few moves, but
rather, it was outplayed in the middle-
game and put up no fight whatever in the
endgame.


-- help bot
  #3  
Old July 23rd 08, 09:08 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
Sanny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,365
Default 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?

White -- Black
(help bot) -- (easy)


1. e2-e4{8} c7-c5{0}
2. Bf1-c4{10} Nb8-c6{44}
3. Ng1-f3{24} e7-e6{22}
4. Ke1-g1{16} d7-d5{20}
5. e4-d5{10} e6-d5{78}
6. Rf1-e1{6} Bc8-e6{48}
7. Bc4-b5{14} Bf8-d6{24}
8. d2-d4{12} *c5-d4* {186}


* There's one.


What was the correct move here?


9. Nf3-d4{18} Qd8-d7{28}
10. Nb1-c3{22} Ng8-e7{114}
11. Nd4-e6{132} f7-e6{34}
12. Qd1-g4{16} Ke8-g8{24}
13. Qg4-e6{16} Qd7-e6{42}
14. Re1-e6{8} *Ra8-d8* {44}


* There's another.


What was the correct move here?


15. Bc1-g5{36} *Rf8-e8* {82}


* Walks right in to a self-pin.


What was the correct move here?


16. Ra1-e1{38} *Re8-f8* {104}


* Loses material. *Etc.


What was the correct move here?

* As far as I can see, the program did not
go wrong in the very first few moves, but
rather, it was outplayed in the middle-
game and put up no fight whatever in the
endgame.


Still I added 2 openings from various sites. So next time you play Bc4
you will get moves as per opening. So it will save your time.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


  #4  
Old July 23rd 08, 10:21 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
help bot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,302
Default 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?


Sanny wrote:

White -- Black
(help bot) -- (easy)


1. e2-e4{8} c7-c5{0}
2. Bf1-c4{10} Nb8-c6{44}
3. Ng1-f3{24} e7-e6{22}
4. Ke1-g1{16} d7-d5{20}
5. e4-d5{10} e6-d5{78}
6. Rf1-e1{6} Bc8-e6{48}
7. Bc4-b5{14} Bf8-d6{24}
8. d2-d4{12} *c5-d4* {186}


� There's one.


What was the correct move here?



*Develop* the Knight.


9. Nf3-d4{18} Qd8-d7{28}
10. Nb1-c3{22} Ng8-e7{114}
11. Nd4-e6{132} f7-e6{34}
12. Qd1-g4{16} Ke8-g8{24}
13. Qg4-e6{16} Qd7-e6{42}
14. Re1-e6{8} *Ra8-d8* {44}


� There's another.


What was the correct move here?



14. ...Bc5


15. Bc1-g5{36} *Rf8-e8* {82}


� Walks right in to a self-pin.


What was the correct move here?



This move is okay-- provided it is
followed by ...Kf7 (which it wasn't).


16. Ra1-e1{38} *Re8-f8* {104}


� Loses material. �Etc.


What was the correct move here?



I decided to completely ignore the
threat of ...Bxf2+ and just gobble as
much material as I could as fast as I
could, and I came out a full piece
ahead, plus pawns.

I figure that 16. ...Kf7 was the last
chance to not hang any more material.


� As far as I can see, the program did not
go wrong in the very first few moves, but
rather, it was outplayed in the middle-
game and put up no fight whatever in the
endgame.


Still I added 2 openings from various sites. So next time you play Bc4
you will get moves as per opening. So it will save your time.



I didn't like Bc4 in this opening; the
Bishop can get kicked around or be
"forced" to trade for a lousy Knight (or
else retreat with loss of time). Next
time I may try the Morra Gambit.


-- help bot



  #5  
Old July 24th 08, 06:34 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
Sanny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,365
Default 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?

Gooad analysis, But adding these strategies are very difficult for
getclub to understand. I hope Normal Level will be able to see these
wrong moves by longer depth of analysis.

* I didn't like Bc4 in this opening; the
Bishop can get kicked around or be
"forced" to trade for a lousy Knight (or
else retreat with loss of time). *Next
time I may try the Morra Gambit.


So you are in favour of Gambits.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


  #6  
Old July 24th 08, 07:15 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
help bot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,302
Default 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?

On Jul 24, 1:34 am, Sanny wrote:

Gooad analysis, But adding these strategies are very difficult for
getclub to understand. I hope Normal Level will be able to see these
wrong moves by longer depth of analysis.

I didn't like Bc4 in this opening; the
Bishop can get kicked around or be
"forced" to trade for a lousy Knight (or
else retreat with loss of time). Next
time I may try the Morra Gambit.


So you are in favour of Gambits.


Not all gambits. I like the Morra because
it is very difficult for Black to exploit his
extra pawn, while White has an easier
time in the first two thirds of the game: the
opening and middle-game. I cannot seem
to visualize a scenario in which the
GetClub program snatches the pawn,
defends perfectly, and then converts a
single pawn advantage to a win against me
in the endgame. (Maybe it's just me, but
this seems virtually impossible.)


-- help bot


  #7  
Old July 24th 08, 11:41 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
Martin Brown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,015
Default 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?

help bot wrote:
Sanny wrote:

What was wrong with easy Level that it has to lose the Knight? Can you
mark the wrong moves?


What, all of them?


White -- Black
(help bot) -- (easy)

1. e2-e4{8} c7-c5{0}
2. Bf1-c4{10} Nb8-c6{44}
3. Ng1-f3{24} e7-e6{22}
4. Ke1-g1{16} d7-d5{20}
5. e4-d5{10} e6-d5{78}
6. Rf1-e1{6} Bc8-e6{48}
7. Bc4-b5{14} Bf8-d6{24}
8. d2-d4{12} *c5-d4* {186}


There's one.

9. Nf3-d4{18} Qd8-d7{28}
10. Nb1-c3{22} Ng8-e7{114}
11. Nd4-e6{132} f7-e6{34}
12. Qd1-g4{16} Ke8-g8{24}
13. Qg4-e6{16} Qd7-e6{42}
14. Re1-e6{8} *Ra8-d8* {44}


There's another.

15. Bc1-g5{36} *Rf8-e8* {82}


Walks right in to a self-pin.


16. Ra1-e1{38} *Re8-f8* {104}


Loses material. Etc.

17. Bb5-c6{18} Bd6-c5{134}


And this one is also surprising. Most engines would see the exchange
sequence as the least bad materialistic continuation here assuming a
half decent quiessence search they should find the following combination
easily on extensions (and always at a full width 7 ply search):

17. ... NxB
18. BxR RxB
19. Nxd5 Bxh2+
20. Kxh2 RxN

Its very bad to see how Help Bot win such a strong Opponent so easily.


A /strong/ opponent? Where? I don't see
any strong opponent.


Something is wrong with its capture or quiessence logic. It should have
easily seen these exchanges at move 17.

19. Bxh2+ is a sort of spite check but it facilitates taking white
knight. I wonder if the anti-spite check is a bit too heavy handed.

Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
  #8  
Old July 24th 08, 01:01 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
Sanny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,365
Default 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?

Its very bad to see how Help Bot win such a strong Opponent so easily.

* A /strong/ opponent? *Where? *I don't see
any strong opponent.


Something is wrong with its capture or quiessence logic. It should have
easily seen these exchanges at move 17.


Today a modification was done in its capture technique. I hope now it
will not do such mistakes.

Only after a few games are played I will know if the problem is
removed or not. I am playing a few games against Rybka to see if
GetClub has improved or not.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

  #9  
Old July 24th 08, 01:27 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
Sanny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,365
Default 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?

Here is a game after improvement against Jester. Let me know if you
still find anything wrong in its game.

Please note this is just Beginner Level weakest of all [Except Baby
Level]


Game Played between sanjay11 and beginner at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sanjay11: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...359&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(sanjay11) -- (beginner)

1. e2-e4{116} e7-e5{0}
2. Ng1-f3{6} Nb8-c6{0}
3. Bf1-b5{6} a7-a6{0}
4. Bb5-c6{8} d7-c6{14}
5. Ke1-g1{8} Bf8-d6{6}
6. d2-d4{12} e5-d4{14}
7. Qd1-d4{12} f7-f6{10}
8. Nb1-c3{10} Ng8-e7{14}
9. Qd4-c4{8} b7-b5{30}
10. Qc4-e2{10} Bc8-g4{42}
11. h2-h3{14} Bg4-f3{54}
12. Qe2-f3{10} b5-b4{22}
13. Nc3-e2{10} Qd8-c8{18}
14. Qf3-b3{14} f6-f5{22}
15. Ne2-d4{12} f5-e4{6}
16. Rf1-e1{12} c6-c5{28}
17. Nd4-e6{10} Qc8-b7{10}
18. Ne6-g7{18} Ke8-d8{26}
19. Bc1-g5{10} c5-c4{26}
20. Qb3-c4{12} c7-c5{78}
21. Ra1-d1{12} Kd8-c7{24}
22. Rd1-d6{14} Kc7-b8{12}
23. Bg5-f4{12} Ra8-a7{28}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sanjay11: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...359&game=Chess

Jester easily got the center position and trapped the king in the
corner.

Most of the moves for GetClub(Black) were forced moves.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
  #10  
Old July 24th 08, 01:33 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
Sanny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,365
Default 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?

So you are in favour of Gambits.

* Not all gambits. *I like the Morra because
it is very difficult for Black to exploit his
extra pawn, while White has an easier
time in the first two thirds of the game: the
opening and middle-game. *I cannot seem
to visualize a scenario in which theGetClubprogram snatches the pawn,
defends perfectly, and then converts a
single pawn advantage to a win against me
in the endgame. *(Maybe it's just me, but
this seems virtually impossible.)


Today a few improvements were done So that it defends its pieces
properly. Lets see how it works.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 2.4.0
Copyright 2004-2017 ChessBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.