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Is this position winning



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 16th 08, 05:59 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
Tantale
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Posts: 128
Default Is this position winning

8/4K3/6p1/3k3b/6p1/6N1/8/6B1 w - - 0 6

So can you demonstrate you can stalemate the Black King.

Thanks


  #2  
Old October 17th 08, 02:44 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
Martin Brown
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Posts: 1,015
Default Is this position winning

On Oct 16, 5:59*pm, "Tantale" wrote:
8/4K3/6p1/3k3b/6p1/6N1/8/6B1 w - - 0 6

So can you demonstrate you can stalemate the Black King.


It looks like it will be a long job but I think the basic strategy for
white is to leave the knight where it is and gradually force the black
king to the edge of the board using K & B. My best strategy for black
was to stay as near the centre of the board as possible and avoid the
edge or corners of the board..

Eventually black has to choose between being squished into a mating
trap or giving away the bishop (which just delays the inevitable).
When I played it out against Shredder it went like this :

[White "Brown, Martin"]
[Black "Shredder 10"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/4K3/6p1/3k3b/6p1/6N1/8/6B1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "56"]

1. Be3 {2.10/25} Ke5 {2.10/30} 2. Kd7 {2.09/29} Kd5 {2.10/27} 3. Bb6
{1.77/27}
Ke5 {2.12/26} 4. Be3 {2.12/27} Kd5 {2.10/21 17} 5. Ke7 {2.09/23} Ke5
{2.09/29 6
} 6. Kf7 {2.10/29} Kd6 {2.09/27 8} 7. Kf6 {2.09/25} Kc6 {2.10/31 13}
8. Ke6 {
2.10/33} Kc7 {2.10/29 17} 9. Kd5 {2.10/32} Kb7 {#150/26 12} ({Shredder
10:}
9... Kd7 10. Bg5 Kc7 11. Ke6 {2.10/32}) 10. Kc5 {2.11/34} ({Shredder
10:} 10.
Kd6 Ka6 11. Kc6 Ka5 12. Kc5 Ka4 13. Bd2 Kb3 14. Kd4 Kc2 15. Bc3 Kd1
16. Kd3 Kc1
17. Bd2+ Kb1 {#150/26}) 10... Kc7 {2.11/31 13} 11. Bg5 {2.10/33} Kd7 {
2.11/30 21} 12. Kd5 {2.10/31} Kc7 {2.11/29 8} 13. Be7 {2.10/27} Kb6
{6.06/29 14
} ({Shredder 10:} 13... Kd7 14. Bb4 Kc7 15. Ke6 Kc6 16. Kf6 Kd5 17.
Bd2 Kd4 18.
Ke6 Kc5 19. Be3+ Kc6 20. Bg5 Kc7 {2.10/27}) 14. Bd8+ {6.81/31} Kb5
{5.82/28 6}
15. Bc7 {5.82/26} Kb4 {5.75/24} 16. Kd4 {2.11/27} ({Shredder 10:} 16.
Bd6+ Kc3
{5.75/24}) 16... Ka3 {#43/26 16} ({Shredder 10:} 16... Kb5 17. Bd6
(17. Kd5 {0}
Kb4 {2.25/22 6} 18. Be5 {27} Kb5 {3.31/29 17} 19. Bd4 {3} Kb4 {3.26/29
10} 20.
Bc5+ {3.26/28 3} Kb3 {3.26/28 17} 21. Bf8 {5.00/20 20} Kc3 22. Bc5
{5.00/18 8}
Kb3 {5.00/21 12} 23. Kd4 {5.79/21 16} Ka4 {3.56/22 23} 24. Kc4
{4.80/17 5} Ka5
{6.33/23 6} 25. Bd4 {#150/20 13} Ka6 {#150/21 4} 26. Kc5 {#150/20 20}
Kb7 {
#154/21 6} 27. Kd6 {#154/14 1} Ka6 {#153/20 5} 28. Kc6 {#153/17 5} Ka5
{
#46/24 10} 29. Kc5 {#46/10 1} Ka4 {#45/23 2} 30. Bc3 {#45/11 1}) 17...
Kc6 18.
Bf8 Kc7 19. Kd5 Kb6 20. Bc5+ Ka6 21. Bb4 Kb7 {2.18/26}) ({Shredder
10:} 16...
Kb5 17. Bd6 {2.11/27}) 17. Kc3 {#42/32} Ka4 {#42/31 9} 18. Kc4
{#41/29} Ka3 {
#41/27 3} 19. Be5 {#42/28} Ka4 {#42/25 12} 20. Bc3 {#41/26} Ka3
{#41/23 7} 21.
Be1 {#44/22 8} Kb2 {#40/25 6} 22. Bb4 {#39/26 12} Kc2 {#41/22 25} 23.
Bc3 {
#38/23} Kb1 {#38/25 12} 24. Kb3 {#37/28 4} Kc1 {#37/25 3} 25. Ba5
{#36/28 13}
Kd1 {#36/25 3} 26. Kc3 {#38/26 9} Ke1 {#38/26 2} 27. Bb6 {#37/25 6} g5
{
#32/26 2} 28. Nxh5 {#31/25 3} Kf1 {#30/22 10} *

The engine was pretty well blind to my intentions until the last
minute. I only have 5 man TBs. I may not have given it enough time so
afterwards I allowed it to blundercheck the game using the dirty
cache, it found a better defence at one point but still it seemed
inexorable that white can win.

Anyone see a more effective defence for black? It is possible a human
might find a defence. I tried Freezer on it but there are too many
permutations for the general case and I lack 6 men TBs.

Regards,
Martin Brown

  #3  
Old October 17th 08, 06:46 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
Tantale
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Posts: 128
Default Is this position winning

Thanks a lot for your analysis.

The position araises from a study of Troitzky
8/2K1p1p1/4b3/7P/6p1/2k5/6N1/6B1 w - - 0 1

There is a similar task araising from this other study of Troitzky
:8/1B3p2/7K/4Pk2/8/5p2/3N1p1b/8 w - - 0 1 --- 2B5/5K2/8/4k3/8/5p2/5p2/5Nb1
b - - 0 4

I am convince that these positiion are winning but it is difficult to have a
real demonstration it is possible to stalmate the black king.

In the last position this still more difficult for chess engines because the
pawn f3 must not be taken or it is draw.

Best regards

JMRW
http://www.jmrw.com/Chess/Chess_Curiosities1.htm


 




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