A Chess forum. ChessBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » ChessBanter forum » Chess Newsgroups » rec.games.chess.analysis (Chess Analysis)
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Why didn't Kramnik play N x d4 on move 28 instead of R x d4



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old October 18th 08, 07:06 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
chessplayer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 110
Default Why didn't Kramnik play N x d4 on move 28 instead of R x d4

I believe Kramnik made a huge mistake in playing R x d4 instead of
playing N x c4. I on my own intuition would have played N x d4. But at
the time I saw the move I felt obviously Kramnik knows better. Later
on computer analysis the computer too picked N x d4. So, my point is
that how come when a club level player like me intuitively wanted to
play N x d4 (and this also happened to be the move picked by the
computer on analysis) than Kramnik who is the best in the world (or at
least amongst the best) picked R x d4. And is R x d4 superior or
should he have played N x d4.
  #2  
Old October 18th 08, 08:13 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
David Richerby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,598
Default Why didn't Kramnik play N x d4 on move 28 instead of R x d4

chessplayer wrote:
I believe Kramnik made a huge mistake in playing R x d4 instead of
playing N x c4. I on my own intuition would have played N x d4. But
at the time I saw the move I felt obviously Kramnik knows better.
Later on computer analysis the computer too picked N x d4. So, my
point is that how come when a club level player like me intuitively
wanted to play N x d4 (and this also happened to be the move picked
by the computer on analysis) than Kramnik who is the best in the
world (or at least amongst the best) picked R x d4.


Kramnik thought he could see advantages in Rxd4 that you weren't good
enough to see. However, it seems that somebody even better than
Kramnik would be able to see that these advantages were illusory. It
looks like you got the right move but not necessarily for the right
reasons.

As a simple example, consider the following position:

White: Kh1, Qd2, Re1, Pg2, Ph2
Black: Kh8, Qf8, Nc4, Pg7, Ph7
FEN: 5q1k/6pp/8/8/1n6/8/3Q2PP/4R2K w - - 0 1

A complete beginner might think that 1.Qxc4 is the best move because
it wins a knight. A slightly better player would reject this move
because the knight is protected and white's queen is more valuable
than black's knight. However, a still stronger player would see that,
after 1... Qxc4, 2.Re8+ Qf8 3.Rxf8# is mate. (An even stronger player
might find that this is wrong, too. ;-) ) So the hypothetical
beginner picked the right move but for the wrong reasons.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Voodoo Priest (TM): it's like a man
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ of the cloth that has mystical powers!
  #3  
Old October 19th 08, 03:41 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
chessplayer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 110
Default Why didn't Kramnik play N x d4 on move 28 instead of R x d4

On Oct 19, 12:13*am, David Richerby
wrote:
chessplayer wrote:
I believe Kramnik made a huge mistake in playing R x d4 instead of
playing N x c4. I on my own intuition would have played N x d4. But
at the time I saw the move I felt obviously Kramnik knows better.
Later on computer analysis the computer too picked N x d4. So, my
point is that how come when a club level player like me intuitively
wanted to play N x d4 (and this also happened to be the move picked
by the computer on analysis) than Kramnik who is the best in the
world (or at least amongst the best) picked R x d4.


Kramnik thought he could see advantages in Rxd4 that you weren't good
enough to see. *However, it seems that somebody even better than
Kramnik would be able to see that these advantages were illusory. *It
looks like you got the right move but not necessarily for the right
reasons.


Actually, I did see a few moves ahead (maybe not as much as Kramnik)
while watching the game on time delay. (For practical purposes as far
as I'm concerned its like watching it live). Anyway, R x d4 lead to a
draw as far as I'm concerned even when Kramnik played it. I could see
that much. How does R x d4 lead to anything else. Was Kramnik simply
aiming for a draw as black and then hoping to regain his point playing
white. Only he can answer. However, I will say this that while
intuitively I saw N x d4 as the better option I could not see so far
ahead and Kramnik probably saw that it is a difficult line which has
advantages but he felt that Anand could fight back. Something I saw on
analysis. So, I guess the only explanation I have for Kramnik is that
he purposely took the safe option and played the move which could only
result in a draw. One other reason for his playing safe this time
could probably be that in games two and three he did play aggressively
and lost out by giving Anand the lead. One hopes that in game 5 we see
Kramnik taking advantage of a good position.

As a simple example, consider the following position:

* White: Kh1, Qd2, Re1, Pg2, Ph2
* Black: Kh8, Qf8, Nc4, Pg7, Ph7
* FEN: * 5q1k/6pp/8/8/1n6/8/3Q2PP/4R2K w - - 0 1

A complete beginner might think that 1.Qxc4 is the best move because
it wins a knight. *A slightly better player would reject this move
because the knight is protected and white's queen is more valuable
than black's knight. *However, a still stronger player would see that,
after 1... Qxc4, 2.Re8+ Qf8 3.Rxf8# is mate. *(An even stronger player
might find that this is wrong, too. ;-) ) *So the hypothetical
beginner picked the right move but for the wrong reasons.


Agree with this analysis of yours but I don't feel it applies in my
case. When I say intuitively, I was looking many moves ahead to the
end game where I too saw black being a pawn up. I still believe that
Kramnik got scared of playing a complicated game with Anand even
though he did have the advantage.
But then these are supposed to be the two best players in the world
today. If they don't play a complicated game of chess who will. The
only reason I say complicated is because the end game could have ended
up with a knight and pawn to black vs just the bishop for white. Now
this is still a certain draw for black if not a victory. Was Kramnik
so scared that he might blunder again that he decided to play it safe
and draw. Only Kramnik can answer that. I believe the latter. After
the blunder he made in game 3 it must have affected Kramnik. We as
club level players when we lose a game in a tournament it sometimes
affects us especially in a game we know we should have won. So, in a
world championship the pressure is intense and after losing a game one
should have drawn or possibly won it can psychologically affect a
player. One only hopes Kramnik bounces back in game 5.

Dave.

--
David Richerby * * * * * * * * * * * * *Voodoo Priest (TM): it's like a manwww.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/* * of the cloth that has mystical powers!


  #4  
Old October 20th 08, 05:08 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Why didn't Kramnik play N x d4 on move 28 instead of R x d4

On Oct 18, 2:06*pm, chessplayer wrote:
I believe Kramnik made a huge mistake in playing R x d4 instead of
playing N x c4. I on my own intuition would have played N x d4. But at
the time I saw the move I felt obviously Kramnik knows better. Later
on computer analysis the computer too picked N x d4. So, my point is
that how come when a club level player like me intuitively wanted to
play N x d4 (and this also happened to be the move picked by the
computer on analysis) than Kramnik who is the best in the world (or at
least amongst the best) picked R x d4. And is R x d4 *superior or
should he have played N x d4.


Looks like you are correct.Kramnik resigns on move 36. Anand Nxe3
Clinched the game...
  #5  
Old October 20th 08, 06:04 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
chessplayer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 110
Default Why didn't Kramnik play N x d4 on move 28 instead of R x d4

On Oct 20, 9:08*pm, wrote:
On Oct 18, 2:06*pm, chessplayer wrote:

I believe Kramnik made a huge mistake in playing R x d4 instead of
playing N x c4. I on my own intuition would have played N x d4. But at
the time I saw the move I felt obviously Kramnik knows better. Later
on computer analysis the computer too picked N x d4. So, my point is
that how come when a club level player like me intuitively wanted to
play N x d4 (and this also happened to be the move picked by the
computer on analysis) than Kramnik who is the best in the world (or at
least amongst the best) picked R x d4. And is R x d4 *superior or
should he have played N x d4.


Looks like you are correct.Kramnik resigns on move 36. Anand Nxe3
Clinched the game...


Actually, the above was in reference to game 4. Where Kramnik could
have pulled off a difficult win but probably avoided the complications
as the defeat in game 3 must have really affected him. He really
should have won in game 3. The tragedy in game 5 was even worse. This
was Kramnik's best chance of winning. After move number 22 Ra3 he was
in a winning position. However, after having played so well till this
move he didn't know how to exploit his position and ended up not even
drawing but losing. Too bad. Now it looks very difficult for Kramnik
to bounce back. It seems Anand has his number.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Zebediah made the King dance from e8-a1. Sanny rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) 79 July 12th 08 02:40 AM
Interview with CJA Award Winning Historian in The Chess Journalist The Historian rec.games.chess.politics (Chess Politics) 215 November 16th 06 08:34 PM
rec.games.chess.misc FAQ [2/4] [email protected] rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) 0 April 7th 06 05:30 AM
rec.games.chess.misc FAQ [2/4] [email protected] rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) 0 January 3rd 06 06:04 AM
rec.games.chess.misc FAQ [2/4] [email protected] rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) 0 November 18th 05 05:36 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 2.4.0
Copyright 2004-2017 ChessBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.