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Please Analyze this game between Help Bot and Easy Level.



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 23rd 08, 02:18 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
Sanny
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Posts: 5,365
Default Please Analyze this game between Help Bot and Easy Level.

Help Bot was able to trap the Rook of Easy Level and then win the
game.

28th move Rxb3 is this sacrifice of Rook for a Knight a good move?

Game Played between help bot and easy at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
easy: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...982&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(easy) -- (help bot)

1. e2-e4{0} c7-c5{6}
2. Nb1-c3{134} a7-a6{22}
3. Ng1-f3{322} g7-g6{40}
4. Bf1-c4{74} Bf8-g7{44}
5. Nc3-d5{60} b7-b5{48}
6. Bc4-d3{322} Bc8-b7{30}
7. c2-c4{80} e7-e6{62}
8. Nd5-e3{48} Ng8-e7{50}
9. Ke1-g1{48} Ke8-g8{18}
10. Nf3-g5{76} h7-h6{66}
11. Ng5-f3{20} d7-d5{44}
12. e4-d5{40} e6-d5{940}
13. c4-d5{148} Ne7-d5{50}
14. Rf1-e1{62} Nd5-f4{470}
15. Bd3-c2{0} Nf4-d3{64}
16. Bc2-d3{134} Qd8-d3{14}
17. Kg1-h1{96} Nb8-d7{72}
18. h2-h3{248} Ra8-d8{34}
19. Re1-f1{52} Rf8-e8{104}
20. Rf1-g1{54} Nd7-f8{58}
21. a2-a3{102} c5-c4{62}
22. Ne3-g4{34} Nf8-e6{148}
23. Rg1-e1{46} Ne6-c5{202}
24. Re1-e8{0} Rd8-e8{4}
25. a3-a4{24} Bb7-f3{170}
26. g2-f3{0} Nc5-b3{72}
27. Ra1-a3{20} b5-b4{8}
28. Ra3-b3{20} c4-b3{10}
29. Ng4-e3{124} Re8-c8{58}
30. f3-f4{212} Kg8-h7{88}
31. f4-f5{114} g6-f5{40}
32. Kh1-h2{42} f5-f4{40}
33. Ne3-g4{28} f7-f5{36}
34. Ng4-h6{28} Kh7-h6{46}
35. h3-h4{144} f4-f3{106}
36. Qd1-g1{152} Bg7-e5{60}
37. Kh2-h3{88} Be5-f4{66}
38. Qg1-h1{94} Rc8-g8{66}
39. a4-a5{32} Bf4-c7{54}
40. Qh1-e1{16}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
easy: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...982&game=Chess

Was GetClub playing stronger than earlier? What do Help Bot think
about the recent strength?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
  #2  
Old November 23rd 08, 06:45 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
help bot
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Posts: 9,302
Default Please Analyze this game between Help Bot and Easy Level.

On Nov 23, 8:18*am, Sanny wrote:

Help Bot was able to trap the Rook of Easy Level and then win the
game.

28th move Rxb3 is this sacrifice of Rook for a Knight a good move?



The alternative, 28. Ra2, loses even more
material (to ...Qb1).


View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...982&game=Chess

Was GetClub playing stronger than earlier? What do Help Bot think
about the recent strength?



The funny Knight moves which lose time
seem to make it fairly easy for me to win.

I expect there is a bonus added to the
position score for "attacking moves", and
this is backfiring because the "attacks"
are ill-timed and toothless. Basically, it
is not wise to "attack" like this with just
one piece for the target will be easily
defended, the attacker driven back with
a loss of time. These losses of time, or
tempos, can add up to significant gains
for the opponent.


-- help bot




  #3  
Old November 24th 08, 03:10 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
Martin Brown
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Posts: 1,015
Default Please Analyze this game between Help Bot and Easy Level.

On Nov 23, 1:18*pm, Sanny wrote:
Help Bot was able to trap the Rook of Easy Level and then win the
game.


Getclub missed a weak tactical edge in the opening.
I don't think 3. ... g6 is sound 4. d4 gives white the edge.

28th move Rxb3 is this sacrifice of Rook for a Knight a good move?

Game Played between help bot and easy at GetClub.com


The wonderfully pointless 10. Ng4 yet again spoils the plot. Loses a
tempo and allows black to really get an attack.

13. c4-d5{148} Ne7-d5{50}


Snip this is terrible. Getclub should be able to see that cxb5 is more
nearly even whereas the move played loses a pawn.

14. Rf1-e1{62} Nd5-f4{470}
15. Bd3-c2{0} Nf4-d3{64}
16. Bc2-d3{134} Qd8-d3{14}
17. Kg1-h1{96} Nb8-d7{72}
18. h2-h3{248} Ra8-d8{34}


Something more attacking like 17 or 18 a4 looks like whites least bad
option.
19. Re1-f1{52} Rf8-e8{104}
20. Rf1-g1{54} Nd7-f8{58}


Why is the rook dithering about. What good is it on g1?
20. a4 is still whites best chance.

21. a2-a3{102} c5-c4{62}


Half hearted but at least he moves the right pawn.
22. Ne3-g4{34} Nf8-e6{148}


Oh dear Ng4 again. Nearly half the moves are better you might as well
pick one at random!
22. a4 is still top of my list.

23. Rg1-e1{46} Ne6-c5{202}


That rook has wasted 3 moves now to get back to its original square
and it doesn't have enough support to move there now. 23. a4 still
least bad.

24. Re1-e8{0} Rd8-e8{4}

Noooo! That gifts the open file to black.
23. a4 still least bad. 23. Ne3 next best.

25. a3-a4{24} Bb7-f3{170}


At last!

26. g2-f3{0} Nc5-b3{72}
27. Ra1-a3{20} b5-b4{8}


27. Ra2 would make more sense. The rook was placed in harms way.
Any engine should see this at ply 2!!!

28. Ra3-b3{20} c4-b3{10}


RxN is the least bad continuation. But it is dire...

The kings position is basically untenable. Only a matter of time
ebfore black uses his material advantage.

Regards,
Martin Brown
  #4  
Old November 25th 08, 03:54 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
help bot
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Posts: 9,302
Default Please Analyze this game between Help Bot and Easy Level.

On Nov 24, 9:10*am, Martin Brown
wrote:

Getclub missed a weak tactical edge in the opening.
I don't think 3. ... g6 is sound 4. d4 gives white the edge.



Arggh! I now recall that this very error has been
pointed out before; but when playing at GetClub, I
tend to think "how do I get this moron out of book?"
and later on, "how can I develop without allowing
too many piece exchanges?"


The wonderfully pointless 10. Ng4 yet again spoils the plot. Loses a
tempo and allows black to really get an attack.



That was actually 10. Ng5.


22. Ne3-g4{34} Nf8-e6{148}


Oh dear Ng4 again.



No, this is the first time.


Nearly half the moves are better you might as well
pick one at random!



Do you mean to say that GC is /not/ chosing
its moves at random? (Had me fooled. ;D)


26. g2-f3{0} Nc5-b3{72}
27. Ra1-a3{20} b5-b4{8}


27. Ra2 would make more sense. The rook was placed in harms way.
Any engine should see this at ply 2!!!



This is the first time I've seen MB have a go
at analysis without using "Fritz"; the fact is,
Rybka, the world's strongest chess player,
likes GC's moves here, since after Ra2 the
Black Queen dashes in to b1, forking two
undefended pieces (the Bishop on c1 and the
Rook on a2).

In fact, although my reinstall has messed
things up a bit with regard to showing a graph
of the game's overall progress, Rybka prefers
that I should have grabbed the Bishop on c1
to what I actually did /later on in the game/. ( I
permanently left the Bishop where it was and
focused on just weaving a mating net.)


28. Ra3-b3{20} c4-b3{10}


RxN is the least bad continuation. But it is dire...

The kings position is basically untenable. Only a matter of time
ebfore black uses his material advantage.



After a complete wipe of my old harddrive, I
reinstalled Windows and re-downloaded (ha,
I invent a new word!) Arena and the free
version of Rybka. For reason's unknown, it
no longer graphs the game-- a handy device
for pinpointing GetClub's most atrocious
blunders; I used to be able to just glance at
the graph, and then jump to the point in a
game where "a mountain" was born, or to
where it fell into "the ocean", speaking in
terms of position score.
Without this handy-dandy graph, it is not
quite so easy to explain to Sanny precisely
what his program's biggest problems were,
but it is clearly still a poor tactician.


-- help bot









  #5  
Old November 25th 08, 07:31 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
Sanny
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Posts: 5,365
Default Please Analyze this game between Help Bot and Easy Level.

no longer graphs the game-- a handy device
for pinpointing GetClub's most atrocious
blunders; I used to be able to just glance at
the graph, and then jump to the point in a
game where "a mountain" was born, or to
where it fell into "the ocean", speaking in
terms of position score.


Which were the moves where you see Mountains and Oceans for GetClub
Moves?

Where were the points where GetClub made Tactical Error and how many
points were lost by that move and what was the correct move?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
  #6  
Old November 25th 08, 07:58 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
help bot
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Posts: 9,302
Default Please Analyze this game between Help Bot and Easy Level.

On Nov 25, 1:31*am, Sanny wrote:

no longer graphs the game-- a handy device
for pinpointing GetClub's most atrocious
blunders; I used to be able to just glance at
the graph, and then jump to the point in a
game where "a mountain" was born, or to
where it fell into "the ocean", speaking in
terms of position score.


Which were the moves where you see Mountains and Oceans for GetClub
Moves?

Where were the points where GetClub made Tactical Error and how many
points were lost by that move and what was the correct move?



As I just explained, my system no longer
shows the game's progress on the graph;
the graphing area in the Arena interface is
still there, but it is now always *blank*.

Several times in this game the GetClub
program hopped its pieces around
aimlessly, which gave me "free moves"
in which to get ahead in development.
I "cashed in" by doubling White's pawns
at f3, and by bouncing a Knight into the
hole at b3, which won material by force.

Any idea why your program plays silly
moves like R-g1, R-f1, then R back to e1?

As for what was the correct move, MB
insists that my second move, ...a6, is
inferior due to the normal reply 2. d4 by
White. Apparently, the weakness of the
b6 square is a tactical problem /against
strong play/ (hypothetically speaking, as
we are talking about GC).
This ...a6 problem has come up before,
but I simply forgot. Indeed, I was not
focused on playing the theoretically best
moves with a home-brewed TN stinger
at the end; that is a game for the book
monkeys.


-- help bot

  #7  
Old November 25th 08, 05:11 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
Sanny
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Posts: 5,365
Default Please Analyze this game between Help Bot and Easy Level.

* Any idea why your program plays silly
moves like R-g1, R-f1, then R back to e1?


It had no good move So it played Rook from here to there.

* As for what was the correct move, MB
insists that my second move, ...a6, is
inferior due to the normal reply 2. d4 by
White. * Apparently, the weakness of the
b6 square is a tactical problem /against
strong play/ (hypothetically speaking, as
we are talking about GC).


This problem was corrected. Now GetClub will not create weakness at
b6.

Now, It will play stronger as it will avoid weakness in pawn
formations.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
  #8  
Old November 25th 08, 06:01 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
help bot
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Posts: 9,302
Default Please Analyze this game between Help Bot and Easy Level.

On Nov 25, 11:11*am, Sanny wrote:

* Any idea why your program plays silly
moves like R-g1, R-f1, then R back to e1?


It had no good move So it played Rook from here to there.



What about opening the a-file? That's the
file on which White's Rook already sat. As
MB already noted, there were /several/
opportunities for White to activate the Rook
by playing p-a4, but instead the GC program
just messed around, and then ultimately
sacrificed the exchange on b3.


* As for what was the correct move, MB
insists that my second move, ...a6, is
inferior due to the normal reply 2. d4 by
White. * Apparently, the weakness of the
b6 square is a tactical problem /against
strong play/ (hypothetically speaking, as
we are talking about GC).


This problem was corrected. Now GetClub will not create weakness at
b6.

Now, It will play stronger as it will avoid weakness in pawn
formations.



The weakness at b6 was mine, not GetClub's.
By playing a very early p-a6, I weakened the b6
square and made it awkward to develop all my
pieces smoothly after my subsequent p-g6.

I ran this sequence through Rybka and she
went for an unsound pawn sacrifice, something
along these lines:

1. e4 c5

2. Nc3 a6

3. Nf3 g6

4. d4 Bg7 (Rybka's choice)

5. dc Bxc3+

6. bxc3 Qa5


White is clearly on top, in spite of the
ugly tripled pawns.

A major issue is that after 4. d4 cd, if
Black attempts to develop normally with
a later ...Nc6, White can take on c6 and
no matter which way Black recaptures,
there is a gaping hole on b6 and/or the
Black King is exposed in the center
(after Qxd8+).

Rest assured, no "improvement" is
necessary, for I will try to remember
not to make this same mistake again.


-- help bot
  #9  
Old November 25th 08, 07:08 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
Sanny
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Posts: 5,365
Default Please Analyze this game between Help Bot and Easy Level.

a later ...Nc6, White can take on c6 and
no matter which way Black recaptures,
there is a gaping hole on b6 and/or the
Black King is exposed in the center
(after Qxd8+).

* Rest assured, no "improvement" is
necessary, for I will try to remember
not to make this same mistake again.


Simmilar mistakes were done by GetClub now penalty is given for weak
moves. Play a few games with Easy Level and lets see if the new
improvements make any difference in style of play of GetClub.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


  #10  
Old November 26th 08, 10:15 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
Martin Brown
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Posts: 1,015
Default Please Analyze this game between Help Bot and Easy Level.

help bot wrote:
On Nov 24, 9:10 am, Martin Brown
wrote:

Getclub missed a weak tactical edge in the opening.
I don't think 3. ... g6 is sound 4. d4 gives white the edge.


Arggh! I now recall that this very error has been
pointed out before; but when playing at GetClub, I
tend to think "how do I get this moron out of book?"
and later on, "how can I develop without allowing
too many piece exchanges?"

The wonderfully pointless 10. Ng4 yet again spoils the plot. Loses a
tempo and allows black to really get an attack.


That was actually 10. Ng5.


Oops. Error on my part.

22. Ne3-g4{34} Nf8-e6{148}

Oh dear Ng4 again.


No, this is the first time.


But the thing about moving knights to no useful purpose still holds.
(later it does the same time wasting trick with a rook moving it from
what was a relatively good square - and then putting it back too late to
do any good)

Nearly half the moves are better you might as well
pick one at random!


Do you mean to say that GC is /not/ chosing
its moves at random? (Had me fooled. ;D)


Sometimes it appears to me like it fails completely to see into certain
positions. Incidentally one reason I am interested in GetClub games is
that some of the odd positions reached are interesting to discriminate
between chess engines.

26. g2-f3{0} Nc5-b3{72}
27. Ra1-a3{20} b5-b4{8}

27. Ra2 would make more sense. The rook was placed in harms way.
Any engine should see this at ply 2!!!


This is the first time I've seen MB have a go
at analysis without using "Fritz"; the fact is,


I almost never use Fritz for analysis (except as a comparison engine).
It doesn't show me what I want to see. I do use Shredder10. This
position is more finely balanced than it looks at first sight!

4r1k1/5pb1/p5pp/1p6/P1p3N1/1n1q1P1P/1P1P1P2/R1BQ3K w - - 0 27

Rybka, the world's strongest chess player,
likes GC's moves here, since after Ra2 the
Black Queen dashes in to b1, forking two
undefended pieces (the Bishop on c1 and the
Rook on a2).


We should note here that this discussion is along the lines of whether
it is better have both arms or both legs chopped off in a sword fight.

Although the Qb1 move looks nasty I don't think this is an entirely
correct assessment of the position so I tried 3 different engines on it
for a few hours and then Rybka overnight.

Shredder10 at 19 ply agrees with me on Ra2 (-10.00), Ra3(-10.14)
Fritz8 at 13 ply (takes too long to go really deep) prefers Ra3 (-5.28)
with Ra2 (-6.28)

Rybka with the default settings I use for infinite analysis overnight
(approx 20-30 lines followed) locked the CB GUI up and crashed totally
at ply 5. So I cut down the number of lines to 13 and let it run.

It is a close thing at modest ply searches but after an overnight run on
this position there is a surprise for both of us Rybka prefers axb5 :
Ply 13 14 15 ... 18
Ra3 -4.86 -4.86 -4.95 -7.53
Ra2 -4.83 -4.95 -5.09 -6.93
axb5 -5.82 -5.98 -6.39 -6.39

The final lines it settled on at ply 18 were

-6.39 axb5 NxR bxa6 Nb3 Ra8 Kg2 Rxa6
-6.93 Ra2 Qb1 Ra3 B4 Rxb3 cxR Kg2
-7.53 Ra3 b4 RxN QxR Qf1 Qxf3+ Kg1

I think axb5 is preferred here just to delay the inevitable. Shredder10
also preferred axb5 after about 3 hours and a ply 20 search.
Shredder10 (ply20) axb5 (-10.16) Ra2 (-10.19) Ra3 (-10.67)
But look at the huge difference in scores! I think Shredder takes into
account the fragile nature of whites king protection.

28. Ra3-b3{20} c4-b3{10}

RxN is the least bad continuation. But it is dire...

The kings position is basically untenable. Only a matter of time
ebfore black uses his material advantage.


After a complete wipe of my old harddrive, I
reinstalled Windows and re-downloaded (ha,
I invent a new word!) Arena and the free
version of Rybka. For reason's unknown, it
no longer graphs the game-- a handy device


There is probably some option hidden in a dark recess that requires you
to press control-alt-C whilst simultaneously crossing your toes.

Without this handy-dandy graph, it is not
quite so easy to explain to Sanny precisely
what his program's biggest problems were,
but it is clearly still a poor tactician.


It seems to be making negative progress to me.

Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 




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