Anatoly Karpov gave up too easily. But it's understandible considering
his opponent...Judit Polgar. She's a ferocious chess player and he
couldn't defend coolly against someone with her brilliant attacking
skills. But if Karpov had the silicon brain like Junior 8, the end
result would have been a spectacular defeat for Judit Polgar. Take a
look at this. I set up the same position as described in the Chessbase
article listed in its news section and decided to "punish" Junior 8 with
Judit's copy of the famous Lasker "greek gift" sacrifice. Look at what
happened to me.


[Event "Judit Polgar victory put to the test against Junior 8"]
[Site "Home Analysis"]
[Date "2003.10.13"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Alberich"]
[Black "Junior 8"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4rrk1/pppb1ppp/8/n1qPB3/8/2PBR3/5PPP/3Q1RK1 w - - 0 1"]


1. Bxh7+ Kh8!! 2. Qh5 Bg4 3. Bxg7+ Kxg7 4. Rg3 Kf6 5. Rxg4 Ke7 6. Qe5+
Kd8 7. Qf5 Qxc3 8. Qg5+ Kc8 9. Bf5+ Kb8 10. h4 Nb3 11. h5 Nd4 12. Kh1
Rh8 13. Rg3 Qb2 14.Qg4 Nxf5 15. Qxf5 Qe2 16. Kg1 Rxh5 17. Qb1 Reh8 18.
Rh3 Rxh3 19. gxh3 Rg8+ 20. Kh1 Qf3+ 0-1

On 12 Oct 2003 20:31:11 -0500, Alberich
wrote:

Anatoly Karpov gave up too easily. But it's understandible considering
his opponent...Judit Polgar. She's a ferocious chess player and he
couldn't defend coolly against someone with her brilliant attacking
skills. But if Karpov had the silicon brain like Junior 8, the end
result would have been a spectacular defeat for Judit Polgar. Take a
look at this. I set up the same position as described in the Chessbase
article listed in its news section and decided to "punish" Junior 8 with
Judit's copy of the famous Lasker "greek gift" sacrifice. Look at what
happened to me.


[Event "Judit Polgar victory put to the test against Junior 8"]
[Site "Home Analysis"]
[Date "2003.10.13"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Alberich"]
[Black "Junior 8"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4rrk1/pppb1ppp/8/n1qPB3/8/2PBR3/5PPP/3Q1RK1 w - - 0 1"]


1. Bxh7+ Kh8!! 2. Qh5 Bg4 3. Bxg7+ Kxg7 4. Rg3 Kf6 5. Rxg4 Ke7 6. Qe5+
Kd8 7. Qf5 Qxc3 8. Qg5+ Kc8 9. Bf5+ Kb8 10. h4 Nb3 11. h5 Nd4 12. Kh1
Rh8 13. Rg3 Qb2 14.Qg4 Nxf5 15. Qxf5 Qe2 16. Kg1 Rxh5 17. Qb1 Reh8 18.
Rh3 Rxh3 19. gxh3 Rg8+ 20. Kh1 Qf3+ 0-1

White's play is inaccurate in the line you provide though - a couple
comments:

4. Rg3?

Mate is forced after the natural Qxg4+ or after Qg5+ instead

6. Qe5+? Kd8

you're successfully forcing the black king you've drawn out over to a
new hiding spot

By move 8 you've successfully given away whatever advantage was there,
and exposed yourself to a potentially lethal counter-attack

Alberich wrote in message ...
Anatoly Karpov gave up too easily. But it's understandible considering
his opponent...Judit Polgar. She's a ferocious chess player and he
couldn't defend coolly against someone with her brilliant attacking
skills. But if Karpov had the silicon brain like Junior 8, the end
result would have been a spectacular defeat for Judit Polgar. Take a
look at this. I set up the same position as described in the Chessbase
article listed in its news section and decided to "punish" Junior 8 with
Judit's copy of the famous Lasker "greek gift" sacrifice. Look at what
happened to me.


[Event "Judit Polgar victory put to the test against Junior 8"]
[Site "Home Analysis"]
[Date "2003.10.13"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Alberich"]
[Black "Junior 8"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4rrk1/pppb1ppp/8/n1qPB3/8/2PBR3/5PPP/3Q1RK1 w - - 0 1"]


1. Bxh7+ Kh8!! 2. Qh5 Bg4 3. Bxg7+ Kxg7 4. Rg3 Kf6 5. Rxg4 Ke7 6. Qe5+
Kd8 7. Qf5 Qxc3 8. Qg5+ Kc8 9. Bf5+ Kb8 10. h4 Nb3 11. h5 Nd4 12. Kh1
Rh8 13. Rg3 Qb2 14.Qg4 Nxf5 15. Qxf5 Qe2 16. Kg1 Rxh5 17. Qb1 Reh8 18.
Rh3 Rxh3 19. gxh3 Rg8+ 20. Kh1 Qf3+ 0-1

You are not Judith Polgar. Begiing with Bxh7, it's amate-in-8 and my
Dell Axim running Chess Genius 1.5 solves the mate-in-8 in 8 seconds.

After 3...Kxg7, try 4.Qg5+ instead of 4.Rg3?

The question I have is why didn't Junior play 4....Rxe1++ mate!! in
your line?

oh I see the problem, where did you that position from?? for the
Polgar-Karpov game it was this position....

4rrk1/p1pb1ppp/1p6/n1qPB3/8/2PBR3/5PPP/3QR1K1 w - - 0 1

although your position still results in black getting mated...

"Alberich" wrote in message
. ..
Anatoly Karpov gave up too easily. But it's understandible considering
his opponent...Judit Polgar. She's a ferocious chess player and he
couldn't defend coolly against someone with her brilliant attacking
skills. But if Karpov had the silicon brain like Junior 8, the end
result would have been a spectacular defeat for Judit Polgar. Take a
look at this. I set up the same position as described in the Chessbase
article listed in its news section and decided to "punish" Junior 8 with
Judit's copy of the famous Lasker "greek gift" sacrifice. Look at what
happened to me.


[Event "Judit Polgar victory put to the test against Junior 8"]
[Site "Home Analysis"]
[Date "2003.10.13"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Alberich"]
[Black "Junior 8"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4rrk1/pppb1ppp/8/n1qPB3/8/2PBR3/5PPP/3Q1RK1 w - - 0 1"]


1. Bxh7+ Kh8!! 2. Qh5 Bg4 3. Bxg7+ Kxg7 4. Rg3 Kf6 5. Rxg4 Ke7 6. Qe5+
Kd8 7. Qf5 Qxc3 8. Qg5+ Kc8 9. Bf5+ Kb8 10. h4 Nb3 11. h5 Nd4 12. Kh1
Rh8 13. Rg3 Qb2 14.Qg4 Nxf5 15. Qxf5 Qe2 16. Kg1 Rxh5 17. Qb1 Reh8 18.
Rh3 Rxh3 19. gxh3 Rg8+ 20. Kh1 Qf3+ 0-1

How can Karpov have resigned too soon when there was
a forced mate in a few moves ?

Regards

In article ,
says...
Alberich wrote in message ...
Anatoly Karpov gave up too easily. But it's understandible considering
his opponent...Judit Polgar. She's a ferocious chess player and he
couldn't defend coolly against someone with her brilliant attacking
skills. But if Karpov had the silicon brain like Junior 8, the end
result would have been a spectacular defeat for Judit Polgar. Take a
look at this. I set up the same position as described in the Chessbase
article listed in its news section and decided to "punish" Junior 8 with
Judit's copy of the famous Lasker "greek gift" sacrifice. Look at what
happened to me.


[Event "Judit Polgar victory put to the test against Junior 8"]
[Site "Home Analysis"]
[Date "2003.10.13"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Alberich"]
[Black "Junior 8"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4rrk1/pppb1ppp/8/n1qPB3/8/2PBR3/5PPP/3Q1RK1 w - - 0 1"]


1. Bxh7+ Kh8!! 2. Qh5 Bg4 3. Bxg7+ Kxg7 4. Rg3 Kf6 5. Rxg4 Ke7 6. Qe5+
Kd8 7. Qf5 Qxc3 8. Qg5+ Kc8 9. Bf5+ Kb8 10. h4 Nb3 11. h5 Nd4 12. Kh1
Rh8 13. Rg3 Qb2 14.Qg4 Nxf5 15. Qxf5 Qe2 16. Kg1 Rxh5 17. Qb1 Reh8 18.
Rh3 Rxh3 19. gxh3 Rg8+ 20. Kh1 Qf3+ 0-1

You are not Judith Polgar. Begiing with Bxh7, it's amate-in-8 and my
Dell Axim running Chess Genius 1.5 solves the mate-in-8 in 8 seconds.

After 3...Kxg7, try 4.Qg5+ instead of 4.Rg3?

Thanks. Your suggestion did it. I was able to mate the Black king
quickly after that. But you see, I didn't use the analysis feature when
I set up this position. I didn't sneak a peek at the computer analysis.
I played faulty chess, but then again, it's possible to lose your way in
a match unless you are as someone said "a Judith Polgar".

Mustn't feel too badly. Karpov himself evidently didn't see the forced mate
either when he made his queen move. I suspect many of us, however, would
have blocked the mate out of experienced fear even though we might not see
the precise mate in nine or less. Chessmaster 9000 saw it in a split second.
Polgar probably saw it before he made his queen move and was probably
surprised that he allowed it. Wonder how strong Judit will be when she
reaches his age...

Wilma

"Alberich" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,
says...
Alberich wrote in message
...
Anatoly Karpov gave up too easily. But it's understandible considering
his opponent...Judit Polgar. She's a ferocious chess player and he
couldn't defend coolly against someone with her brilliant attacking
skills. But if Karpov had the silicon brain like Junior 8, the end
result would have been a spectacular defeat for Judit Polgar. Take a
look at this. I set up the same position as described in the Chessbase
article listed in its news section and decided to "punish" Junior 8
with
Judit's copy of the famous Lasker "greek gift" sacrifice. Look at what
happened to me.


[Event "Judit Polgar victory put to the test against Junior 8"]
[Site "Home Analysis"]
[Date "2003.10.13"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Alberich"]
[Black "Junior 8"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4rrk1/pppb1ppp/8/n1qPB3/8/2PBR3/5PPP/3Q1RK1 w - - 0 1"]


1. Bxh7+ Kh8!! 2. Qh5 Bg4 3. Bxg7+ Kxg7 4. Rg3 Kf6 5. Rxg4 Ke7 6. Qe5+
Kd8 7. Qf5 Qxc3 8. Qg5+ Kc8 9. Bf5+ Kb8 10. h4 Nb3 11. h5 Nd4 12. Kh1
Rh8 13. Rg3 Qb2 14.Qg4 Nxf5 15. Qxf5 Qe2 16. Kg1 Rxh5 17. Qb1 Reh8 18.
Rh3 Rxh3 19. gxh3 Rg8+ 20. Kh1 Qf3+ 0-1

You are not Judith Polgar. Begiing with Bxh7, it's amate-in-8 and my
Dell Axim running Chess Genius 1.5 solves the mate-in-8 in 8 seconds.

After 3...Kxg7, try 4.Qg5+ instead of 4.Rg3?

Thanks. Your suggestion did it. I was able to mate the Black king
quickly after that. But you see, I didn't use the analysis feature when
I set up this position. I didn't sneak a peek at the computer analysis.
I played faulty chess, but then again, it's possible to lose your way in
a match unless you are as someone said "a Judith Polgar".

Alberich wrote in rec.games.chess.analysis:


Thanks. Your suggestion did it. I was able to mate the Black king
quickly after that. But you see, I didn't use the analysis feature
when I set up this position. I didn't sneak a peek at the computer
analysis. I played faulty chess, but then again, it's possible to lose
your way in a match unless you are as someone said "a Judith Polgar".


Conclusion: you shouldn't have compared Karpov's brain with a defective
version of Junior 8, but your brain with a defective version of Judith's


--
CeeBee


Uxbridge: "By God, sir, I've lost my leg!"
Wellington: "By God, sir, so you have!"


Google CeeBee @ www.geocities.com/ceebee_2

In article ,
says...
Alberich wrote in rec.games.chess.analysis:


Thanks. Your suggestion did it. I was able to mate the Black king
quickly after that. But you see, I didn't use the analysis feature
when I set up this position. I didn't sneak a peek at the computer
analysis. I played faulty chess, but then again, it's possible to lose
your way in a match unless you are as someone said "a Judith Polgar".


Conclusion: you shouldn't have compared Karpov's brain with a defective
version of Junior 8, but your brain with a defective version of Judith's



Incorrect. Junior 8 picked up the mate. I just didn't look at the
analysis. I "played" Junior 8 trying to test my tactics. Obviously I
have to work on it more to fine tune my ability to see the correct
continuations. But I've read somewhere that sometimes we can't see past
the piece sacrifices to the last move. It's why they call it a "pure"
sacrifice. You don't know how it will ultimately turn out. Now obviously
Judit Polgar is superior to alot of people in terms of her chess skills.
However, she has yet to beat the world champion, Kramnik. The day she
can beat him is the day she's ready to fight for the world championship.
I'd really like to see Judit Polgar play against Junior 8. Chances are
very high she would lose and lose spectacularly...since her style is one
of pure tactics. The Junior programmers are dreaming of the day they can
get her in their sights for such a human vs computer match. In the
meantime, I was amazed to see my database contain this game:

[Event "Frankfurt-West Masters"]
[Site "Frankfurt GER"]
[Date "1999.06.30"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Polgar, Judit"]
[Black "Fritz 6"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A22"]
[WhiteElo "2677"]
[PlyCount "94"]
[EventDate "1999.??.??"]


1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. e4 Bc5 4. d3 d6 5. Be2 Nc6 6. Nf3 Nd4 7. Nxd4
Bxd4 8.O-O c6 9. Be3 O-O 10. Qd2 Be6 11. Bf3 Re8 12. Bxd4 exd4 13. Ne2
c5 14. b4 Nd7 15. bxc5 dxc5 16. Ng3 b6 17. Be2 Qh4 18. f4 Nf6 19. f5 Bc8
20. Rf4 Qg5 21. Raf1 Bd7 22. Nh1 Re5 23. Qe1 Bc6 24. h4 Qh6 25. g4 Nd7
26. Qg3 Qd6 27. g5 f6 28. Nf2 Re7 29. Ng4 Kh8 30. Kh2 a6 31. Rg1 b5 32.
gxf6 Nxf6 33. Nxf6 Qxf6 34. Bf3 Re5 35. Rg4 Ra7 36. h5 bxc4 37. h6 Qxh6+
38. Rh4 Qd6 39. dxc4 Rb7 40. Kh1 Be8 41.Qf4 Qf6 42. Rh2 Rb6 43. Qd2 Rb4
44. Rhg2 Rxe4!! 45. Bxe4 Qh4+ 46. Rh2 Qxe4+ 47.Rhg2 Qh4+ 0-1

Just like me in the "faulty" continuation of MY imaginary game against
Junior 8...Judit Polgar lost her way in this match back in 1999 against
then Fritz 6! So, you can just imagine the improvements the programmers
have been working on to ensure they can take on the likes of Judit
Polgar. And this is the year 2003. Just a few years more before they
implement a rudimentary AI into the software analysis of these
commercial engines and it'll be all over. Judit Polgar won't dare take
them on knowing she'd be humiliated against something as strong as
Shredder or Junior. Don't get me wrong. I really admire Judit Polgar's
chess skills. I enjoy studying her games immensely because she has such
a sharp eye for tactics. I just wish some chess author would create a
Judit Polgar book by Everyman Chess publisher and give us some wealthy
analysis from Judit's games to study. Because there really are too few
Judit Polgar games in annotation format. Surely somebody can do it and I
hope it's done soon...before she becomes World Champion. And if she
continues to improve...I can't see the day she can be denied her chance
to fight for the World Championship title. She's earned it. Vishy Anand
has given her high praise to her before their incredible Mainz 8 game
blitz match. "I have to study very hard against Judit". I really do feel
FIDE lost it's chance to show boldness and imagination by not giving a
Kasparov vs Judit Polgar match a chance. It definitely would have made
headlines and given chess a tremendous boost in the arm. What do they
come up with? A stupid knockout format which makes it too hard for Judit
Polgar to compete fairly.

Alberich wrote in rec.games.chess.analysis:


Incorrect. Junior 8 picked up the mate. I just didn't look at the
analysis. I "played" Junior 8 trying to test my tactics.

Incorrect You claimed that if Karpov had been Junior 8, he would have
won from Judith Polgar:

But if Karpov had the silicon brain like Junior 8, the end
result would have been a spectacular defeat for Judit Polgar.


This is not true. If Karpov would have had the brain of Junior 8, he still
would have been mated by Judith Polgar from that position.


Now if Karpov's opponent would have been _Alberich_ instead of Judith,
_then_ he would have won.....

--
CeeBee


Uxbridge: "By God, sir, I've lost my leg!"
Wellington: "By God, sir, so you have!"


Google CeeBee @ www.geocities.com/ceebee_2

How to defend this?
1. Bxh7+ Kh8 2. Qh5 Bg4 3. Bxg7+ Kxg7 4. Qg5+ Kh8 5. Qf6+ Kxh7 6. Qh4+ Kg6
7. Qxg4+ Kf6 8. Qf4+ Kg6 9. Rg3+ Kh5 10. Qg5#

. ..
Anatoly Karpov gave up too easily. But it's understandible considering
his opponent...Judit Polgar. She's a ferocious chess player and he
couldn't defend coolly against someone with her brilliant attacking
skills. But if Karpov had the silicon brain like Junior 8, the end
result would have been a spectacular defeat for Judit Polgar. Take a
look at this. I set up the same position as described in the Chessbase
article listed in its news section and decided to "punish" Junior 8 with
Judit's copy of the famous Lasker "greek gift" sacrifice. Look at what
happened to me.


[Event "Judit Polgar victory put to the test against Junior 8"]
[Site "Home Analysis"]
[Date "2003.10.13"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Alberich"]
[Black "Junior 8"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4rrk1/pppb1ppp/8/n1qPB3/8/2PBR3/5PPP/3Q1RK1 w - - 0 1"]


1. Bxh7+ Kh8!! 2. Qh5 Bg4 3. Bxg7+ Kxg7 4. Rg3 Kf6 5. Rxg4 Ke7 6. Qe5+
Kd8 7. Qf5 Qxc3 8. Qg5+ Kc8 9. Bf5+ Kb8 10. h4 Nb3 11. h5 Nd4 12. Kh1
Rh8 13. Rg3 Qb2 14.Qg4 Nxf5 15. Qxf5 Qe2 16. Kg1 Rxh5 17. Qb1 Reh8 18.
Rh3 Rxh3 19. gxh3 Rg8+ 20. Kh1 Qf3+ 0-1