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What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 15th 04, 02:39 AM
Dr. David Kirkby
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Default What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ?

I played a game (as black) on ICC which I lost, after a long battle.
The fact I lost does not bother me too much, but I'm interested what
is wrong with my response to the opening moves played by my opponent.

The game started like this:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nf6

According to 'scid', this is the "QGD Marshall Defense" although I did
not know that at the time I played it. However, 2. ...Nf6 seems quite
reasonable to me, and would appear to develop the Knight, whilst
protecting the pawn on d5. Yet looking at GM games that start 1. d4 d5
2. c4, it is very rare (0.8% of the GM games in my database) for black
to play 2. ...Nf6. More common alternatives seem to be c6, e6 and
dxc4.

The percentages in my database a

c6 (48.6 %)
e6 (28.3 %)
dxc4 (21.3 %)
Nf6 (0.8%)
the rest (total 0.5%)

I'm wondering why the more popular alternative ways to decline this
(c6 or e6) are preferable.

c6 does not seem to offer very much to me, as it advances a pawn and
blocks c6, which the Knight might usefully use.

I can see that e6 does protect the pawn and allow a bishop to be
developed. But why is 2. ...Nf6 played so rarely compared to the other
choices?

At my rating (~1200 on ICC), I'm not trying to learn any particular
opening, but my choice (2. ...Nf6) seemed reasonable at the time. I'd
like to know why it's played so rarely.

Dr. David Kirkby.
  #2  
Old January 15th 04, 03:35 AM
mdamien
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Posts: n/a
Default What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ?

"Dr. David Kirkby" m wrote
in message om...
I played a game (as black) on ICC which I lost, after a long battle.
The fact I lost does not bother me too much, but I'm interested what
is wrong with my response to the opening moves played by my opponent.

The game started like this:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nf6

According to 'scid', this is the "QGD Marshall Defense" although I did
not know that at the time I played it. However, 2. ...Nf6 seems quite
reasonable to me, and would appear to develop the Knight, whilst
protecting the pawn on d5. Yet looking at GM games that start 1. d4 d5
2. c4, it is very rare (0.8% of the GM games in my database) for black
to play 2. ...Nf6. More common alternatives seem to be c6, e6 and
dxc4.

The percentages in my database a

c6 (48.6 %)
e6 (28.3 %)
dxc4 (21.3 %)
Nf6 (0.8%)
the rest (total 0.5%)

I'm wondering why the more popular alternative ways to decline this
(c6 or e6) are preferable.

c6 does not seem to offer very much to me, as it advances a pawn and
blocks c6, which the Knight might usefully use.

I can see that e6 does protect the pawn and allow a bishop to be
developed. But why is 2. ...Nf6 played so rarely compared to the other
choices?

At my rating (~1200 on ICC), I'm not trying to learn any particular
opening, but my choice (2. ...Nf6) seemed reasonable at the time. I'd
like to know why it's played so rarely.


2. ... Nf6 is not a bad move, but it cedes the center after, say, 3. cxd5
Nxd5 4. e4. By first playing 2. ... e6, Black can respond to 3. cxd5 (the
Exchange Variation) with 3. ... exd5, keeping a pawn in the center and --
very importantly -- freeing up the white-squared bishop, which is the
"problem child" for Black in the QGD, since it's often blocked by the pawn
at e6. If White instead plays 3. Nc3, then you will find that 3. ... Nf6 is
very common.

Matt


  #3  
Old January 15th 04, 10:32 AM
Ron
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Posts: n/a
Default What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ?

In article ,
(Dr. David Kirkby)
wrote:

I played a game (as black) on ICC which I lost, after a long battle.
The fact I lost does not bother me too much, but I'm interested what
is wrong with my response to the opening moves played by my opponent.

The game started like this:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nf6

According to 'scid', this is the "QGD Marshall Defense" although I did
not know that at the time I played it. However, 2. ...Nf6 seems quite
reasonable to me, and would appear to develop the Knight, whilst
protecting the pawn on d5. Yet looking at GM games that start 1. d4 d5
2. c4, it is very rare (0.8% of the GM games in my database) for black
to play 2. ...Nf6. More common alternatives seem to be c6, e6 and
dxc4.


It's good that you're thinking about things like development, but let's
look a little further ahead:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nf6 3.cd

Black now has a choice of how to respond:

3.... Qxd5?! 4.Nc3 develops the knight with a gain of time, as well as
threatening e4 with a big pawn center.

3.... Nxd5 4.e4 and the knight has to move again. White's got the big
pawn center and is preparing to develop his pieces. Alternatively, white
can play 4.Nc3 threatening 4.e4 when Nxc3 just strengthens white's
already imposing center.

The point is to notice how quickly white acheives a massive space
advantage in the center. While it is possible to develop counterplay
against a large center, at as you improve you'll learn more about these
ideas, at your current strength you really need to be fighting directly
for control of the center. Giving your opponent a big center will
generally lead to a large positional advantage for him.
  #4  
Old January 16th 04, 01:17 AM
KJ2350
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Posts: n/a
Default What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ?


The game started like this:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nf6

According to 'scid', this is the "QGD Marshall Defense" although I did
not know that at the time I played it. However, 2. ...Nf6 seems quite
reasonable to me, and would appear to develop the Knight, whilst
protecting the pawn on d5. Yet looking at GM games that start 1. d4 d5
2. c4, it is very rare (0.8% of the GM games in my database) for black
to play 2. ...Nf6. More common alternatives seem to be c6, e6 and
dxc4.


It's good that you're thinking about things like development, but let's
look a little further ahead:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nf6 3.cd

Black now has a choice of how to respond:

3.... Qxd5?! 4.Nc3 develops the knight with a gain of time, as well as
threatening e4 with a big pawn center.

3.... Nxd5 4.e4 and the knight has to move again. White's got the big
pawn center and is preparing to develop his pieces. Alternatively, white
can play 4.Nc3 threatening 4.e4 when Nxc3 just strengthens white's
already imposing center.


If my fading memory serves, I believe that 4.e4 was once given as inaccurate by
Alekhine because Black has just enough time to put pressure on the center pawns
and 4.Nf3 (development), keeping e2-e4 in reserve at a more favorable moment
was indicated.

The point is to notice how quickly white acheives a massive space
advantage in the center. While it is possible to develop counterplay
against a large center, at as you improve you'll learn more about these
ideas, at your current strength you really need to be fighting directly
for control of the center. Giving your opponent a big center will
generally lead to a large positional advantage for him.

This is true more often that not, but the 4 Pawns Attack against the Alekhine's
Defense and/or the King's Indian draws this generalization into question.
"White has his center to defend" is a common quote then. But it is a
reasonable stance to say that before one can know the exceptions, one must
first understand the rules, so your advice is valid.
Ken


  #5  
Old January 16th 04, 04:59 AM
Randy Bauer
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Posts: n/a
Default What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ?

You are correct. After 3.cxd5 Nxd5 4.e4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 gives black
counterplay. On the other hand, after 4.Nf3 black can't really prevent 5.e4
since 4...Bf5 5.Qb3 e6 6.Nc3 Nc6 7.e4 Nxc3 8.exf5! gives white a clear
advantage. Better for black is to acquiese to a Grunfeld strategy with
4...g6 5.e4 Nb6 6.h3 Bg7 7.Nc3, but this is considered at least slightly
better for white.

Randy Bauer

"KJ2350" wrote in message
...

The game started like this:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nf6

According to 'scid', this is the "QGD Marshall Defense" although I did
not know that at the time I played it. However, 2. ...Nf6 seems quite
reasonable to me, and would appear to develop the Knight, whilst
protecting the pawn on d5. Yet looking at GM games that start 1. d4 d5
2. c4, it is very rare (0.8% of the GM games in my database) for black
to play 2. ...Nf6. More common alternatives seem to be c6, e6 and
dxc4.


It's good that you're thinking about things like development, but let's
look a little further ahead:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nf6 3.cd

Black now has a choice of how to respond:

3.... Qxd5?! 4.Nc3 develops the knight with a gain of time, as well as
threatening e4 with a big pawn center.

3.... Nxd5 4.e4 and the knight has to move again. White's got the big
pawn center and is preparing to develop his pieces. Alternatively, white
can play 4.Nc3 threatening 4.e4 when Nxc3 just strengthens white's
already imposing center.


If my fading memory serves, I believe that 4.e4 was once given as

inaccurate by
Alekhine because Black has just enough time to put pressure on the center

pawns
and 4.Nf3 (development), keeping e2-e4 in reserve at a more favorable

moment
was indicated.

The point is to notice how quickly white acheives a massive space
advantage in the center. While it is possible to develop counterplay
against a large center, at as you improve you'll learn more about these
ideas, at your current strength you really need to be fighting directly
for control of the center. Giving your opponent a big center will
generally lead to a large positional advantage for him.

This is true more often that not, but the 4 Pawns Attack against the

Alekhine's
Defense and/or the King's Indian draws this generalization into question.
"White has his center to defend" is a common quote then. But it is a
reasonable stance to say that before one can know the exceptions, one must
first understand the rules, so your advice is valid.
Ken




  #6  
Old January 16th 04, 10:13 AM
Dr. David Kirkby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ?

Ron wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Dr. David Kirkby)
wrote:

I played a game (as black) on ICC which I lost, after a long battle.
The fact I lost does not bother me too much, but I'm interested what
is wrong with my response to the opening moves played by my opponent.

The game started like this:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nf6

According to 'scid', this is the "QGD Marshall Defense" although I did
not know that at the time I played it. However, 2. ...Nf6 seems quite
reasonable to me, and would appear to develop the Knight, whilst
protecting the pawn on d5. Yet looking at GM games that start 1. d4 d5
2. c4, it is very rare (0.8% of the GM games in my database) for black
to play 2. ...Nf6. More common alternatives seem to be c6, e6 and
dxc4.


It's good that you're thinking about things like development, but let's
look a little further ahead:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nf6 3.cd

Black now has a choice of how to respond:

3.... Qxd5?! 4.Nc3 develops the knight with a gain of time, as well as
threatening e4 with a big pawn center.

3.... Nxd5 4.e4 and the knight has to move again. White's got the big
pawn center and is preparing to develop his pieces. Alternatively, white
can play 4.Nc3 threatening 4.e4 when Nxc3 just strengthens white's
already imposing center.


Yes, I see your point. Having looked at it again, I can see the
weaknesses if white had played cxd5. My opponent did not in this case
take that line, but instead the game went 3. Nc3 e6 4. Bg5 dxc4 5.
Bxf6 Qxf6


I guess I was not punished as badly as I could have done. I did loose
the game, but given my opponent was nearly 300 points (on ICC) higher,
I guess that was not too much of a surprise.

Thanks for the analysis, and the comments by others too of course.

Dr. David Kirkby





The point is to notice how quickly white acheives a massive space
advantage in the center. While it is possible to develop counterplay
against a large center, at as you improve you'll learn more about these
ideas, at your current strength you really need to be fighting directly
for control of the center. Giving your opponent a big center will
generally lead to a large positional advantage for him.

  #7  
Old January 18th 04, 08:33 PM
King Leopold
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Posts: n/a
Default What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ?


"Dr. David Kirkby" m wrote
in message om...
I played a game (as black) on ICC which I lost, after a long battle.
The fact I lost does not bother me too much, but I'm interested what
is wrong with my response to the opening moves played by my opponent.

The game started like this:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nf6

According to 'scid', this is the "QGD Marshall Defense" although I did
not know that at the time I played it. However, 2. ...Nf6 seems quite
reasonable to me, and would appear to develop the Knight, whilst
protecting the pawn on d5. Yet looking at GM games that start 1. d4 d5
2. c4, it is very rare (0.8% of the GM games in my database) for black
to play 2. ...Nf6. More common alternatives seem to be c6, e6 and
dxc4.

The percentages in my database a

c6 (48.6 %)
e6 (28.3 %)
dxc4 (21.3 %)
Nf6 (0.8%)
the rest (total 0.5%)

I'm wondering why the more popular alternative ways to decline this
(c6 or e6) are preferable.

c6 does not seem to offer very much to me, as it advances a pawn and
blocks c6, which the Knight might usefully use.

I can see that e6 does protect the pawn and allow a bishop to be
developed. But why is 2. ...Nf6 played so rarely compared to the other
choices?

At my rating (~1200 on ICC), I'm not trying to learn any particular
opening, but my choice (2. ...Nf6) seemed reasonable at the time. I'd
like to know why it's played so rarely.

Dr. David Kirkby.


Hi,
Heres what I found in I.A.Horowitz's Chess Openings 1964
(Annotations by Horowitz)
Leopold

[White "Takacs"]

[Black "Havasi"]

[Budapest]

[ECO "D06"]

[Annotator "Horowitz, I.A."]

[EventDate "1926.??.??"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nf6 With this move Black abandons the center, a policy rarely
commendable. 3. cxd5 Nxd5 (3... Qxd5 4. Nc3 Qa5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Bd2 ! Favors
White.) 4. Nf3 Eliminating any counterplay by means of ...e5. (4. e4
Premature. Nf6 5. Bd3 (5. Nc3 e5 !) 5... e5 6. dxe5 Ng4 7. Nf3 Nc6 8. Bg5
(Not 8. Bf4 ? because of Nb4 !) 8... Be7 9. Bxe7 Kxe7 10. Nc3 Ncxe5 11.
Nxe5 Nxe5 12. Be2 c6 = Grunfeld-Becker, Breslau 1925) 4... Bf5 (4... g6
leading to a kind of Grunfeld Defense, is much more prudent.) 5. Qb3 Nc6 6.
Nbd2 (Not 6. Qxb7 because of Ndb4) 6... Nb6 7. e4 Bg6 8. d5 Nb8 9. a4 a5 10.
Ne5 N8d7 11. Bb5 Qc8 12. Ndc4 +- *



  #8  
Old January 20th 04, 08:50 PM
Anonymous
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Posts: n/a
Default What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ?

NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway.
No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.
--------------------------------------------------------


Randy Bauer, that st upid fu cker, wrote again:

After 3.cxd5 Nxd5 4.e4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 gives black
counterplay. On the other hand, after 4.Nf3 black can't really
prevent 5.e4 since 4...Bf5 5.Qb3 .... snip


Repeating bull **** doesnt make it any more true!
Do I have to repeat my games where I played 4.e4! and won
convincingly against those ICC assh oles who play 2...Nf6
because they have absolutely no knowledge and have absolutely no
time to learn 3 move deep openings but play 8 hours chess on
internet in their jobless time?

  #10  
Old January 21st 04, 02:28 AM
Randy Bauer
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Posts: n/a
Default What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ?

Speaking of morons, anybody who wants to see GuestDestroyer/GD/Annonymous'
"games" can do a Google search. You can also find my analysis of his
puerile lines, they definitely do not deserve much attention.

This anonymouse puts up a ficticious "3000" rating and churns out book traps
and childish wins of pieces as real games. Meanwhile, he claims that those
of us who have earned real titles in real organizations in over the board
play are somehow "repeating bull****." The **** flows downhill, and it's
all over Guestdestroyer in all his various anonymous alter egos.

Randy Bauer
2304 USCF

"Anonymous" wrote in message
...
NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway.
No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.
--------------------------------------------------------


Randy Bauer, that st upid fu cker, wrote again:

After 3.cxd5 Nxd5 4.e4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 gives black
counterplay. On the other hand, after 4.Nf3 black can't really
prevent 5.e4 since 4...Bf5 5.Qb3 .... snip


Repeating bull **** doesnt make it any more true!
Do I have to repeat my games where I played 4.e4! and won
convincingly against those ICC assh oles who play 2...Nf6
because they have absolutely no knowledge and have absolutely no
time to learn 3 move deep openings but play 8 hours chess on
internet in their jobless time?



 




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