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A difficult decision in an ending



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 27th 04, 11:27 PM
Antonio Torrecillas
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Posts: n/a
Default A difficult decision in an ending

Hello,

I was analysing a game and I found a nice possibility i the ending I
would like to check/compare with your thouhgts here.

FEN
8/2p1k3/1p1p1p2/p1nPpP2/P1P1P3/1P3B2/K2Q4/6q1 b - - 0 59

ASCII
wKa2,Qd2,Bf3,Pa4,b3,c4,d5,e4,f5/
bKe7,Qg1,Nc5,Pa5,b6,c7,d6,e5,f6

Tha game is Valiente-Dolezal, Buenos Aires 2003
Black played 59...Na6 60.Bd1 Qd4 0-1

* First, I don't understand why black resigned. After 61.Qe2 I can't see
any clear win. (maybe incomplete game o white lost by time)

* Second: black had another options in ...59th move:

- The tactical 59... Qa1!? can be good but black has to calculate
carefully the ending because his knigth can be lost (and in this case
maybe black can move it to h2 or g3 and if white king go to capture it,
black can prepare ...b5 or ...c6 and ...b5 trying to promote his "a" pawn.

- The "strategical" 59...Qd4 can be a simple way to win, the ending
seems easily won and I see no better options

Any message about this ending will be wellcome (included, a simple "I
agree with all you said but I have no more to add")

thanks,
Antonio T.

  #2  
Old January 28th 04, 02:41 AM
Mike Ogush
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Posts: n/a
Default A difficult decision in an ending

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:27:32 +0100, Antonio Torrecillas
wrote:

Hello,

I was analysing a game and I found a nice possibility i the ending I
would like to check/compare with your thouhgts here.

FEN
8/2p1k3/1p1p1p2/p1nPpP2/P1P1P3/1P3B2/K2Q4/6q1 b - - 0 59

ASCII
wKa2,Qd2,Bf3,Pa4,b3,c4,d5,e4,f5/
bKe7,Qg1,Nc5,Pa5,b6,c7,d6,e5,f6

Tha game is Valiente-Dolezal, Buenos Aires 2003
Black played 59...Na6 60.Bd1 Qd4 0-1

* First, I don't understand why black resigned. After 61.Qe2 I can't see
any clear win. (maybe incomplete game o white lost by time)

* Second: black had another options in ...59th move:

- The tactical 59... Qa1!? can be good but black has to calculate
carefully the ending because his knigth can be lost (and in this case
maybe black can move it to h2 or g3 and if white king go to capture it,
black can prepare ...b5 or ...c6 and ...b5 trying to promote his "a" pawn.


After 59...Qa1+ 60.Kxa1 Nxb3+ 61.Kb2 Nxd2 62.Bg2 (or 62.Bh1 any other
moves lose the e-pawn and the game) Nxc4+ 63.Kc3 Ne3 64.Bf3 (otherwise
the knight escapes via g4 and h6) Nf1 White cannot win the knight. If
he tries to move his king to the kingside black can play ...b5 at the
appropriate moment and force either White's king or bishop back to the
queenside to stop the a-pawn, e.g. 65.Kd3 Ng3 66.Ke3 b5 67.axb5 a4
68.Bd1 a3 69.Bb3 Kd8 and black wins becausee his king can penetrate
via b6.

If White does not go after the knight with his king he cannot prevent
Black from either penetrating on the queenside or maneuvering the
knight back to a location where Black can win another pawn. e.g.
65.Kc2 Kd7 with the idea of pushing the c-pawn 66.Be2 Ne3+ 67.Kd2 Ng2
and now the knight escapes.

- The "strategical" 59...Qd4 can be a simple way to win, the ending
seems easily won and I see no better options


I think that 59...Qd4 is the simplest win. If 60.Qxd4 exd4 Black has
no problem keeping white's king away from the d-pawn and threatens
both the b and d pawn tying down White's king and bishop so that black
can penetrate on the dark sqaures this time on the king side. If
white tries to trade the weak pawn at b3 he only creates a new weak
pawn at a4, e.g. 51.Ka3 Kf8 52.b4 Nd3 53.bxa5 bxa5 54.Kb3 Nc4+ and
Black can penertate with his king.
If 60.Qc2 defending the e-pawn then 60...Nd3 threatening the fork at
b4 61.Kb1 Qe3 62.Be2 Nb4 63.Qd1 Qxe4+ and wins.

Any message about this ending will be wellcome (included, a simple "I
agree with all you said but I have no more to add")

thanks,
Antonio T.


I had Fritz analyze the position and the computer definitely prefers
59...Qa1+ because it can see that it will win the b and c pawns. It
doesn't understand that Black's plan should be to take advantage of
the fact that the White's bishop and king are tied down to the defense
of the b and e-pawns and cannot prevent Black's king from pentrating
to f4 without giving up one or two pawns.

Mike Ogush
  #3  
Old January 28th 04, 03:08 AM
Bill Brock
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Posts: n/a
Default A difficult decision in an ending

Antonio Torrecillas wrote in message ...
Hello,

I was analysing a game and I found a nice possibility i the ending I
would like to check/compare with your thouhgts here.

FEN
8/2p1k3/1p1p1p2/p1nPpP2/P1P1P3/1P3B2/K2Q4/6q1 b - - 0 59

ASCII
wKa2,Qd2,Bf3,Pa4,b3,c4,d5,e4,f5/
bKe7,Qg1,Nc5,Pa5,b6,c7,d6,e5,f6

Tha game is Valiente-Dolezal, Buenos Aires 2003
Black played 59...Na6 60.Bd1 Qd4 0-1

* First, I don't understand why black resigned. After 61.Qe2 I can't see
any clear win. (maybe incomplete game o white lost by time)

* Second: black had another options in ...59th move:

- The tactical 59... Qa1!? can be good but black has to calculate
carefully the ending because his knigth can be lost (and in this case
maybe black can move it to h2 or g3 and if white king go to capture it,
black can prepare ...b5 or ...c6 and ...b5 trying to promote his "a" pawn.

- The "strategical" 59...Qd4 can be a simple way to win, the ending
seems easily won and I see no better options

Any message about this ending will be wellcome (included, a simple "I
agree with all you said but I have no more to add")

thanks,
Antonio T.


In the game continuation, Black has the strong idea of attacking the
dark squares with ...Nb4+ and ...Nd3. It's hard to see how White can
defend c1/b2 and hang on to e4. The Black King can hide on b7.
  #4  
Old January 28th 04, 09:49 AM
Antonio Torrecillas
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Posts: n/a
Default A difficult decision in an ending

En/na Bill Brock ha escrit:
Antonio Torrecillas wrote in message ...

Hello,

I was analysing a game and I found a nice possibility i the ending I
would like to check/compare with your thouhgts here.

FEN
8/2p1k3/1p1p1p2/p1nPpP2/P1P1P3/1P3B2/K2Q4/6q1 b - - 0 59

ASCII
wKa2,Qd2,Bf3,Pa4,b3,c4,d5,e4,f5/
bKe7,Qg1,Nc5,Pa5,b6,c7,d6,e5,f6

Tha game is Valiente-Dolezal, Buenos Aires 2003
Black played 59...Na6 60.Bd1 Qd4 0-1

* First, I don't understand why black resigned. After 61.Qe2 I can't see
any clear win. (maybe incomplete game o white lost by time)
Antonio T.


In the game continuation, Black has the strong idea of attacking the
dark squares with ...Nb4+ and ...Nd3. It's hard to see how White can
defend c1/b2 and hang on to e4. The Black King can hide on b7.


Hello Bill,

61.Qe2 Nb4 62.Kb1 Nd3 63.Kg2 Kd7! 64.Qe2 Kc8! ... Yes, your plan seems
to win. Maybe I should have written "After 61.Qe2 I can't see any clear
short win to force resignation.".

I don't understand why white resigned after 59...Na6 60.Bd1 Qd4 0-1.
I think white was lost from 50th move, and maybe it was more accurate to
resign before playing his 59th move (if Mike and me are not wrong,
59....Qd4 is an easy win and 59...Qa1 wins too but with some acurate
calculation) than resigning after 60....Qd4.

yours,
Antonio

  #5  
Old January 28th 04, 11:09 AM
Antonio Torrecillas
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Posts: n/a
Default A difficult decision in an ending

En/na Mike Ogush ha escrit:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:27:32 +0100, Antonio Torrecillas
wrote:

Hello,

I was analysing a game and I found a nice possibility i the ending I
would like to check/compare with your thouhgts here.

FEN
8/2p1k3/1p1p1p2/p1nPpP2/P1P1P3/1P3B2/K2Q4/6q1 b - - 0 59

Tha game is Valiente-Dolezal, Buenos Aires 2003
Black played 59...Na6 60.Bd1 Qd4 0-1

* Second: black had another options in ...59th move:

- The tactical 59... Qa1!? can be good but black has to calculate
carefully the ending because his knigth can be lost (and in this case
maybe black can move it to h2 or g3 and if white king go to capture it,
black can prepare ...b5 or ...c6 and ...b5 trying to promote his "a" pawn.


After 59...Qa1+ 60.Kxa1 Nxb3+ 61.Kb2 Nxd2 62.Bg2 (or 62.Bh1 any other
moves lose the e-pawn and the game) Nxc4+ 63.Kc3 Ne3 64.Bf3 (otherwise
the knight escapes via g4 and h6) Nf1 White cannot win the knight. If
he tries to move his king to the kingside black can play ...b5 at the
appropriate moment and force either White's king or bishop back to the
queenside to stop the a-pawn, e.g. 65.Kd3 Ng3 66.Ke3 b5 67.axb5 a4
68.Bd1 a3 69.Bb3 Kd8 and black wins becausee his king can penetrate
via b6.

If White does not go after the knight with his king he cannot prevent
Black from either penetrating on the queenside or maneuvering the
knight back to a location where Black can win another pawn. e.g.
65.Kc2 Kd7 with the idea of pushing the c-pawn 66.Be2 Ne3+ 67.Kd2 Ng2
and now the knight escapes.


I agree, ... this Nc5! is the simplest and strongest way to win.

- The "strategical" 59...Qd4 can be a simple way to win, the ending
seems easily won and I see no better options


I think that 59...Qd4 is the simplest win. If 60.Qxd4 exd4 Black has
no problem keeping white's king away from the d-pawn and threatens
both the b and d pawn tying down White's king and bishop so that black
can penetrate on the dark sqaures this time on the king side. If
white tries to trade the weak pawn at b3 he only creates a new weak
pawn at a4, e.g. 51.Ka3 Kf8 52.b4 Nd3 53.bxa5 bxa5 54.Kb3 Nc4+ and
Black can penertate with his king.
If 60.Qc2 defending the e-pawn then 60...Nd3 threatening the fork at
b4 61.Kb1 Qe3 62.Be2 Nb4 63.Qd1 Qxe4+ and wins.


I agree completely, (I suppose you mean 54.Kb3 Nc5+).
I saw 60.Qc2 Qe3 61.Bg2 Nd3 which is very similar.

Any message about this ending will be wellcome (included, a simple "I
agree with all you said but I have no more to add")

thanks,
Antonio T.


I had Fritz analyze the position and the computer definitely prefers
59...Qa1+ because it can see that it will win the b and c pawns. It
doesn't understand that Black's plan should be to take advantage of
the fact that the White's bishop and king are tied down to the defense
of the b and e-pawns and cannot prevent Black's king from pentrating
to f4 without giving up one or two pawns.

Mike Ogush


About Fritz comment, curiously Fritz seems not to see the point but
maybe he feels that a line where black win two pawns can not be bad. And
if you play the game vs the engine it will find all the ...b5 finesses
no matter it did not prepare them in advance!! Maybe the problem is that
humans are not prepared to think in those terms.

But I think most part of human strong players would prefer "our" Qd4.

Thanks Mike,
Antonio

  #6  
Old January 28th 04, 06:07 PM
Mark S. Hathaway
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Posts: n/a
Default A difficult decision in an ending

Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
Hello,

I was analysing a game and I found a nice possibility i the ending I
would like to check/compare with your thouhgts here.

FEN
8/2p1k3/1p1p1p2/p1nPpP2/P1P1P3/1P3B2/K2Q4/6q1 b - - 0 59

ASCII
wKa2,Qd2,Bf3,Pa4,b3,c4,d5,e4,f5/
bKe7,Qg1,Nc5,Pa5,b6,c7,d6,e5,f6

Tha game is Valiente-Dolezal, Buenos Aires 2003
Black played 59...Na6 60.Bd1 Qd4 0-1

* First, I don't understand why black resigned. After 61.Qe2 I can't see
any clear win. (maybe incomplete game o white lost by time)

* Second: black had another options in ...59th move:

- The tactical 59... Qa1!? can be good but black has to calculate
carefully the ending because his knigth can be lost (and in this case
maybe black can move it to h2 or g3 and if white king go to capture it,
black can prepare ...b5 or ...c6 and ...b5 trying to promote his "a" pawn.

- The "strategical" 59...Qd4 can be a simple way to win, the ending
seems easily won and I see no better options

Any message about this ending will be wellcome (included, a simple "I
agree with all you said but I have no more to add")

thanks,
Antonio T.


"I agree with all you said but I have no more to add" :-)

I don't really understand 59...Na6 either. There isn't
likely to be any mating attack once the knight gets to b4,
so why go there. Nc5 threatens two weak spots and that's
ideal. It's Black's queen which needs to be improved.

Of course, it's obvious white's position is airy and pawns
b3 & e4 are weak, but the White pieces, king included,
do a good job of defending.

It seems the only way Black can expect to break through is
to play ...Qd4, using pawn e5 as a crucial extra bit of
material support, and after a queen trade, play a simpler
ending with a passed pawn at d4 or to chase Qd2 to a
more passive square which might let Black continue to
make inroads.

The immediate pressure on pawn e4 would also help to prevent
White from maneuvering Bf3-d1-c2.

If White avoids the queen trade by
a) 60. Qe2 then 60...Qc3 moves in closer to Ka2.
b) 60. Qc2 might be a little tougher defense,
though 60...Qe3 also keeps the pressure on
(...K-moves, ...Nc5-d3-b4, etc).
  #7  
Old January 28th 04, 10:49 PM
Antonio Torrecillas
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Default A difficult decision in an ending

En/na Mark S. Hathaway ha escrit:

Antonio Torrecillas wrote:

Hello,

I was analysing a game and I found a nice possibility i the ending I
would like to check/compare with your thouhgts here.

FEN
8/2p1k3/1p1p1p2/p1nPpP2/P1P1P3/1P3B2/K2Q4/6q1 b - - 0 59
Tha game is Valiente-Dolezal, Buenos Aires 2003
Black played 59...Na6 60.Bd1 Qd4 0-1

* Second: black had another options in ...59th move:
- The "strategical" 59...Qd4 can be a simple way to win, the ending
seems easily won and I see no better options

Any message about this ending will be wellcome (included, a simple "I
agree with all you said but I have no more to add")

thanks,
Antonio T.


Thanks Mark for your contribution.

"I agree with all you said but I have no more to add" :-)


:-)

Of course, it's obvious white's position is airy and pawns
b3 & e4 are weak, but the White pieces, king included,
do a good job of defending.

It seems the only way Black can expect to break through is
to play ...Qd4, using pawn e5 as a crucial extra bit of
material support, and after a queen trade, play a simpler
ending with a passed pawn at d4 or to chase Qd2 to a
more passive square which might let Black continue to
make inroads.

The immediate pressure on pawn e4 would also help to prevent
White from maneuvering Bf3-d1-c2.

If White avoids the queen trade by
a) 60. Qe2 then 60...Qc3 moves in closer to Ka2.
b) 60. Qc2 might be a little tougher defense,
though 60...Qe3 also keeps the pressure on
(...K-moves, ...Nc5-d3-b4, etc).


I agree with respect to your evaluation and positional considerations:
white has a poor position but it has to be broken (maybe with a black
pawn in g5 and a white pawn in g4 the ending would be draw - black king
have not access to king wing).

After 59...Qd4 60.Qe2 Qc3! (your "a" line) I analyzed this: 61.Qd1 Nd3!
62.Qb1 Nc1 63.Ka3 Qb4 64.Kb2 Nxb3 winning

After 59...Qd4 60.Qc2 Qe3! (your "b" line) I analyzed 61.Bg2 Nd3! and
white has no moves.

yours,
Antonio T.

  #8  
Old January 29th 04, 04:00 PM
Claus-Jürgen Heigl
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Posts: n/a
Default A difficult decision in an ending

Antonio Torrecillas wrote:

After 59...Qd4 60.Qc2 Qe3! (your "b" line) I analyzed 61.Bg2 Nd3! and
white has no moves.


White's last resort is 61. Bh1 Nd3 62. Qg2 but 62...Kd7! and the
threat Qc1/Nb4+ is undefendable.

Claus-Juergen
  #9  
Old January 31st 04, 11:40 AM
Antonio Torrecillas
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A difficult decision in an ending

Hello,

Thank you to all who have help me in this subejct!

A more question, I searching for more examples like this one: there are
two lines: in one of them it seems a player is winning easily but there
is some complication later (Engine suggest this line because it do not
see far enough), in other one this player has a easy win (maybe a long
win, but an easy one with no complications).

If some of you have similar own examples, I would like to see them.

thank you again,
Antonio

En/na Claus-Jürgen Heigl ha escrit:
Antonio Torrecillas wrote:

After 59...Qd4 60.Qc2 Qe3! (your "b" line) I analyzed 61.Bg2 Nd3! and
white has no moves.


White's last resort is 61. Bh1 Nd3 62. Qg2 but 62...Kd7! and the
threat Qc1/Nb4+ is undefendable.

Claus-Juergen


  #10  
Old January 31st 04, 02:46 PM
mdamien
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Posts: n/a
Default A difficult decision in an ending

"Antonio Torrecillas" wrote in message
...
Hello,

I was analysing a game and I found a nice possibility i the ending I
would like to check/compare with your thouhgts here.

FEN
8/2p1k3/1p1p1p2/p1nPpP2/P1P1P3/1P3B2/K2Q4/6q1 b - - 0 59

ASCII
wKa2,Qd2,Bf3,Pa4,b3,c4,d5,e4,f5/
bKe7,Qg1,Nc5,Pa5,b6,c7,d6,e5,f6

Tha game is Valiente-Dolezal, Buenos Aires 2003
Black played 59...Na6 60.Bd1 Qd4 0-1

* First, I don't understand why black resigned. After 61.Qe2 I can't see
any clear win. (maybe incomplete game o white lost by time)

* Second: black had another options in ...59th move:

- The tactical 59... Qa1!? can be good but black has to calculate
carefully the ending because his knigth can be lost (and in this case
maybe black can move it to h2 or g3 and if white king go to capture it,
black can prepare ...b5 or ...c6 and ...b5 trying to promote his "a" pawn.

- The "strategical" 59...Qd4 can be a simple way to win, the ending
seems easily won and I see no better options

Any message about this ending will be wellcome (included, a simple "I
agree with all you said but I have no more to add")


I agree. Perhaps Black lost on time? The ending is about as classic an
example of good knight, bad bishop as you could ask for, so it's a shame
Black loses.

Matt



 




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