A Chess forum. ChessBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » ChessBanter forum » Chess Newsgroups » rec.games.chess.computer (Computer Chess)
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

The need for criticism



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old July 12th 03, 07:56 AM
Beery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The need for criticism

I'd like to know why certain people are arguing against me on these
issues. Are they seriously suggesting that they would prefer the next
version of the Chessmaster program to include the same number, or even
more, of these time-consuming features that unnecessarily get in the
way of playing the game?

Are there legitimate reasons why people here believe that the
interface as it is in CM9000 is better than what I'm suggesting? If
so, it would be interesting if they told us what those reasons are.
It would certainly be better than telling me that I need to be more
flexible - that will certainly not make the Chessmaster series evolve,
and if we all took that advice it would mean that game developers
could produce inferior and mediocre products and we would all simply
lower our expectations to suit. That's not exactly a plan that
inspires progress. I prefer games to get better over time, and that's
why I'm a harsh critic, even of the games I enjoy. No one ever helped
a game system (or anything else for that matter) to improve by
endlessly praising it and turning a blind eye to its weaknesses, yet
that's exactly what I'm sensing in those who are ridiculing my
argument here.
  #2  
Old July 12th 03, 08:59 AM
Russell Reagan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The need for criticism

"Beery" wrote

Are they seriously suggesting that they would prefer the next
version of the Chessmaster program to include the same number, or even
more, of these time-consuming features that unnecessarily get in the
way of playing the game?


I don't have any idea what you are referring to about the Chessmaster stuff,
but I'll share my experience with you.

The statement you make above sounds like one of bias and ignorance. I have
learned this the hard way over the past few years, that usually when someone
makes a statement like, "Do they seriously believe that?" or "How could
anyone really think that?", it is usually because that person is biased and
ignorant him/herself. Maybe the other person is too, but you can't control
other people. You can control yourself however, so maybe you should start
there. I apologize if I sound critical, but the sooner you learn this the
better off you'll be.

I think this holds especially true for the internet, when the person you're
talking to could be halfway around the world, living in a drastically
different environment than you. I can't count the times that I've read a
statement by someone on the net on some message board and thought, "People
actually believe that? What idiots!" Of course, my reaction is based on my
own personal bias and ignorance of the other person's world view. I've
learned that and now I take things as a learning experience to humble myself
and learn how other people view the world (hopefully).

As far as chess programs go, they are just like any other product. People
have drastically different ideas about what chess programs/engines should be
used for. I program my own chess engine, so I am particularly interested in
seeing which engines are the strongest, and I don't really care a whole lot
about whether a program has a lot of user friendly features like
Chessmaster. Just give me a Winboard engine and I'm happy. I am in the
minority however. Other people look at it completely opposite. A parent who
isn't very computer savy who is wanting to teach their child to play chess
isn't going to enjoy using a Winboard engine. Something like Chessmaster
would suit them much better.

Recently at the CCC (www.talkchess.com), someone gave a review of a chess
program and said it "sucked big time". He recieved harsh return fire from
the large programmer population of CCC, and he didn't understand why. The
reason is that he was reviewing the program based upon what the average
consumer would want in a chess program (user friendly things like
Chessmaster has), and the population of CCC is made up of a lot of
programmers who are perfectly fine with using Winboard/UCI engines, passing
in command line parameters, modifying configuration files, reading pages of
documentations, and so on. Neither side was wrong. They just both had
different ideas about what a makes desirable chess program.

Think about it. One person might say, "Program X is great because it has all
of these great user friendly features," and another person might say,
"Program X is horrible because it has all of these extra user friendly
features. Just give me the bare bones and let me configure it how I like it
and get rid of all of this newbie fluff." Both people want different things,
and there is no right or wrong there.


  #3  
Old July 12th 03, 11:25 AM
Nonyz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The need for criticism

How long have you been frequenting this newsgroup? You're too little
too late to join the 'Criticize Chessmaster' entourage. It's all been
said and done here, several times over.
I understand the need to keep the pressure up but as you've been told
by John, this is really not the place if you intend your words to have
any real effect.



(Beery) wrote in message om...
I'd like to know why certain people are arguing against me on these
issues. Are they seriously suggesting that they would prefer the next
version of the Chessmaster program to include the same number, or even
more, of these time-consuming features that unnecessarily get in the
way of playing the game?

Are there legitimate reasons why people here believe that the
interface as it is in CM9000 is better than what I'm suggesting? If
so, it would be interesting if they told us what those reasons are.
It would certainly be better than telling me that I need to be more
flexible - that will certainly not make the Chessmaster series evolve,
and if we all took that advice it would mean that game developers
could produce inferior and mediocre products and we would all simply
lower our expectations to suit. That's not exactly a plan that
inspires progress. I prefer games to get better over time, and that's
why I'm a harsh critic, even of the games I enjoy. No one ever helped
a game system (or anything else for that matter) to improve by
endlessly praising it and turning a blind eye to its weaknesses, yet
that's exactly what I'm sensing in those who are ridiculing my
argument here.

  #4  
Old July 13th 03, 12:55 AM
Beery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The need for criticism

Somehow this message got cross-posted. Obviously it doesn't make much
sense out of its context. I don't know how it happened.
  #5  
Old July 13th 03, 05:36 AM
Brian
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The need for criticism

As has been already said, a lot of these issues aren't new. I don't think
people are arguing against you, I just think on some explanations you've
refused to accept explanations (eg. on processors affecting the computer's
ability) that is often considered "common knowledge" for computer chess
enthusiasts.

As for not wanting improved software, it seems that again you're going over
the top a bit. I'm all for an improved chessmaster, however your concerns
with the software are not mine. I'd rather have easy to use internet play,
a simple and speedy interface, and, most recently, a slew of bug fixes that
were just recently patched.

And again, these issues are not new here ... I'm all for new people popping
up and getting involved in the community but if you dig a little you'd see
this is nothing new. And in fact, while Chessmaster is popular, most people
you'll find in a forum like this are into engines and their performance.
You want a chessmaster discussion? Try discussing The King in Linares or
the latest version of Junior and how it fares against The King.

-Brian


"Beery" wrote in message
m...
I'd like to know why certain people are arguing against me on these
issues. Are they seriously suggesting that they would prefer the next
version of the Chessmaster program to include the same number, or even
more, of these time-consuming features that unnecessarily get in the
way of playing the game?

Are there legitimate reasons why people here believe that the
interface as it is in CM9000 is better than what I'm suggesting? If
so, it would be interesting if they told us what those reasons are.
It would certainly be better than telling me that I need to be more
flexible - that will certainly not make the Chessmaster series evolve,
and if we all took that advice it would mean that game developers
could produce inferior and mediocre products and we would all simply
lower our expectations to suit. That's not exactly a plan that
inspires progress. I prefer games to get better over time, and that's
why I'm a harsh critic, even of the games I enjoy. No one ever helped
a game system (or anything else for that matter) to improve by
endlessly praising it and turning a blind eye to its weaknesses, yet
that's exactly what I'm sensing in those who are ridiculing my
argument here.



  #6  
Old July 13th 03, 05:14 PM
Beery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The need for criticism

"Brian" wrote in message ...
As for not wanting improved software, it seems that again you're going over
the top a bit. I'm all for an improved chessmaster, however your concerns
with the software are not mine.


But that is not a reason to argue against proposed improvements. If
you have a proposal to improve the game which I don't find very
important, I'd stay silent. I wouldn't write paragraphs ridiculing a
beneficial suggestion (as others here have done). It seems to me that
there are some here who are almost pathologically regressive in their
thought processes.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 2.4.0
Copyright 2004-2017 ChessBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.