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CA6.1 PGN Export horrors



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 22nd 03, 10:25 AM
John
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Posts: n/a
Default CA6.1 PGN Export horrors

Chess Assistant PGN Export - Just Not Their Format

So I have this dataset. How do I export it to PGN?

DataSet | Save as New Base, and choose a pgn file; that's ok.

But did you think the exported file is correct PGN? Well, it's not!
The boys at CA don't write nags, they just put it in a comment!

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 (3... g6 4. d4 exd4 5. Nxd4 Bg7 6. Be3
Nf6 7. Be2 O-O 8. O-O $10 {Steinitz}) 4. Bb5 Bb4 5. O-O O-O 6. Nd5
Nxd5 7. exd5 e4 $1 {Gunsberg} 8. dxc6

is turned into

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 ( 3...g6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6
7.Be2 O-O 8.O-O {=} {Steinitz}) 4.Bb5 Bb4 5.O-O O-O 6.Nd5 Nxd5 7.exd5
e4 {!} {Gunsberg} 8.dxc6

Even two comments in one place !!!

Great!

Oh well, I didn't need the annotations anyway. So in the PGN file, I
select, DataSet | Delete | All Comments.
Would you think the exported file is correct PGN? Well, it's not! Now
it seems that moves are not disambiguated when multiple pieces of the
same type can go to the end-square. Very great!

Ok, now I save the dataset first as new CA base, in that base I delete
all comments, and now I save it as a new PGN base. Well, at least
something seems to work.

Ofcourse, ...

[Event "Match"]
[Site "Paris (France)"]
[Date "1858.??.??"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Morphy Paul"]
[Black "Anderssen Adolf"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B44"]
[WhiteElo "0"]
[BlackElo "7"]
[Annotator ""]
[Source ""]
[Remark ""]

1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.Nxd4 e6 5.Nb5 d6 6.Bf4 e5 7.Be3
f5 8.N1c3 f4 9.Nd5 fxe3 10.Nbc7+ Kf7 11.Qf3+ Nf6 12.Bc4 Nd4 13.Nxf6+
d5 14.Bxd5+ Kg6 15.Qh5+ Kxf6 16.fxe3 Nxc2+ 17.Ke2 Z0
1-0

Another nice example of CA, even after deleting all annotations! Z0 is
not a nice move, but occurs when in CA a game has [...] as its last
move (a placeholder to allow variants after the last move, i.e. to
show a possible continuation).

And then: CA includes stupid ELO numbers of "0" or "7" in all the
games!!! How dumb! They also have included nationality as part of a
player's name.

(oh and did you see if you type a name in the save as new base
dialog, and then change the type, that the name is cleared again?
sigh... oh and they also force the name to start with a capital even
if you don't type it.)






  #2  
Old July 23rd 03, 12:29 AM
Robert Pawlak
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Posts: n/a
Default CA6.1 PGN Export horrors


So I have this dataset. How do I export it to PGN?

DataSet | Save as New Base, and choose a pgn file; that's ok.

But did you think the exported file is correct PGN? Well, it's not!
The boys at CA don't write nags, they just put it in a comment!

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 (3... g6 4. d4 exd4 5. Nxd4 Bg7 6. Be3
Nf6 7. Be2 O-O 8. O-O $10 {Steinitz}) 4. Bb5 Bb4 5. O-O O-O 6. Nd5
Nxd5 7. exd5 e4 $1 {Gunsberg} 8. dxc6

is turned into

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 ( 3...g6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6
7.Be2 O-O 8.O-O {=} {Steinitz}) 4.Bb5 Bb4 5.O-O O-O 6.Nd5 Nxd5 7.exd5
e4 {!} {Gunsberg} 8.dxc6

Even two comments in one place !!!


Umm, you can enter an evaluation in CA as a comment, which is what you
have done. And so, when you export what you think is an evaluation, what
you get is a comment. What you need to do is enter the move evaluations
as an actual evaluation. Then it will be exported as a NAG.

Now maybe what happened was that you imported a PGN game, and the eval
was imported into the comment field. Then you attempted to export it, and
found that it had changed to a comment. IMO, this is something that should
be changed in CA. So the problem in this case is procedural, with the way
games are imported, not with the PGN export. I can't think of a good reason to
import them as comments, so I will suggest to the developers that they
be imported as evals

The PGN spec does not explicitly state that you can't have multiple comments
after a move.


Another nice example of CA, even after deleting all annotations! Z0 is
not a nice move, but occurs when in CA a game has [...] as its last
move (a placeholder to allow variants after the last move, i.e. to
show a possible continuation).


Right now, I don't see any mention of empty moves in the PGN spec. So one
problem is that CA supports these empty moves, but the PGN spec doesn't. That
being said, the empty move should not be exported in this fashion (maybe with a

# prefix instead). This last should be fixed. I will pass these comments
on to the developers. The only problem I foresee is that there will be issues
with parsing the moves after the empty one. So maybe there should be a comment
place there instead, something like {Original game score ends here}.

As for the disambiguation, the PGN spec talks about it, but says nothing (that
I could find) about it being required. In fact, it talks about ways that PGN
parsers can perform the disambiguation, which means that whatever wrote the PGN
in the first place did not do the disambiguation.




Bob Pawlak (remove 1et.tw to e-mail)
Chess Assistance
http://www.chessassistance.com
Chess Reviews
http://www.chessreviews.com


  #3  
Old July 23rd 03, 05:25 PM
John
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Posts: n/a
Default CA6.1 PGN Export horrors

Well thanks for your reply.

About disbambiguation in the PGN spec: see "8.2.3.4: Disambiguation".
It clearly spells out how uit must be done. CA6.1 can do it though,
but there is some roundabout way you must do things, because on
some paths there are some bugs.

I did not put an evaluation in a comment, CA6.1 did it, I loaded from
a pgn which had a NAG $10. CA6.1 wrote it out to PGN as {=}. They
put the nags in a text field, that they then put in a comment. But for
PGN it is not appropriate.

Well ok, about the empy moves... chessbase also exports them.
But if I strip all annotations & variations I except it to do so!

My main gripes were that the simple act of just exporing hugebase to
pgn was not simple at all!

I was checking some features in CA6.1 and CB8, and then you stumble
acros these things.

John


On 22 Jul 2003 22:29:53 GMT, (Robert Pawlak)
wrote:


So I have this dataset. How do I export it to PGN?

DataSet | Save as New Base, and choose a pgn file; that's ok.

But did you think the exported file is correct PGN? Well, it's not!
The boys at CA don't write nags, they just put it in a comment!

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 (3... g6 4. d4 exd4 5. Nxd4 Bg7 6. Be3
Nf6 7. Be2 O-O 8. O-O $10 {Steinitz}) 4. Bb5 Bb4 5. O-O O-O 6. Nd5
Nxd5 7. exd5 e4 $1 {Gunsberg} 8. dxc6

is turned into

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 ( 3...g6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6
7.Be2 O-O 8.O-O {=} {Steinitz}) 4.Bb5 Bb4 5.O-O O-O 6.Nd5 Nxd5 7.exd5
e4 {!} {Gunsberg} 8.dxc6

Even two comments in one place !!!


Umm, you can enter an evaluation in CA as a comment, which is what you
have done. And so, when you export what you think is an evaluation, what
you get is a comment. What you need to do is enter the move evaluations
as an actual evaluation. Then it will be exported as a NAG.

Now maybe what happened was that you imported a PGN game, and the eval
was imported into the comment field. Then you attempted to export it, and
found that it had changed to a comment. IMO, this is something that should
be changed in CA. So the problem in this case is procedural, with the way
games are imported, not with the PGN export. I can't think of a good reason to
import them as comments, so I will suggest to the developers that they
be imported as evals

The PGN spec does not explicitly state that you can't have multiple comments
after a move.


Another nice example of CA, even after deleting all annotations! Z0 is
not a nice move, but occurs when in CA a game has [...] as its last
move (a placeholder to allow variants after the last move, i.e. to
show a possible continuation).


Right now, I don't see any mention of empty moves in the PGN spec. So one
problem is that CA supports these empty moves, but the PGN spec doesn't. That
being said, the empty move should not be exported in this fashion (maybe with a

# prefix instead). This last should be fixed. I will pass these comments
on to the developers. The only problem I foresee is that there will be issues
with parsing the moves after the empty one. So maybe there should be a comment
place there instead, something like {Original game score ends here}.

As for the disambiguation, the PGN spec talks about it, but says nothing (that
I could find) about it being required. In fact, it talks about ways that PGN
parsers can perform the disambiguation, which means that whatever wrote the PGN
in the first place did not do the disambiguation.




Bob Pawlak (remove 1et.tw to e-mail)
Chess Assistance
http://www.chessassistance.com
Chess Reviews
http://www.chessreviews.com


  #4  
Old July 23rd 03, 10:16 PM
Robert Pawlak
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default CA6.1 PGN Export horrors

John,

For what it is worth, I already have e-mail from CA. Essentially, the problem
is even more complicated than I envisioned.

In a nutshell, there are changes coming in PGN. Some of the changes are already
supported by CA, and CB as well. Unfortunately, the spec has not caught up with
them.

But things like the import of evals as evals should be done. There is probably
some simple parsing rule that can be used. The only problem I foresee is when
the eval is buried somewhere in the comment, instead of right after the move.

BTW, haven't you heard that nothing is simple ;-) ?

Bob Pawlak (remove 1et.tw to e-mail)
Chess Assistance
http://www.chessassistance.com
Chess Reviews
http://www.chessreviews.com


 




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