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Sjeng Chess Engine - Curious results



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 26th 03, 01:27 PM
Jeff Stephens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sjeng Chess Engine - Curious results

This chess engine is now a commercial item, but is still available for
download. The latest
free version I was able to find is 12.13. At any rate, the reason I was
searching for it was an
article I came across ( http://www.lokasoft.nl/uk/deepsjengintro.htm ) that
gave the following
position from a game between GM Boris Alterman and Sjeng, WCCC Exhibition
Maastricht,
09.07.2002.

2rq1rk1/pb1pn1pp/1p2p3/2pn1p2/3P2P1/P1PBPN1P/1P1NQP1R/1K1R4 b - - 0 15

Deep Sjeng (the commercial version which was playing the game) surprised
Alterman by playing 15...Nxc3+!
The article goes on to say, "Deep Sjeng is the only program we know of that
can find this move instantly."

Curious, I downloaded Sjeng (not Deep Sjeng!), version 12.13, from
http://users.pandora.be/sjeng/download.html
Note that this is the old, free version, and not the new commercial version.
The engine works fine in Fritz8, so I
selected it, and then inputted the position above. Lo and behold, the 12.13
free version also selects 15...Nxc3+
immediately, even on my lowly antiquated PII-233MHz machine. I then started
Fritz8 analyzing the position and
after ten minutes it had still not even considered Nxc3+.

I would like to know what you all think of this? Why would Sjeng be able
to solve this position immediately, while
others don't seem able to?

Regards,
Jeff Stephens


  #2  
Old July 26th 03, 01:50 PM
Jeff Stephens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sjeng Chess Engine - Curious results

A self installing executable for Sjeng 12.13 can be downloaded at the
following web address:

http://161.58.237.201/download/setup%20sjeng.exe

"Jeff Stephens" wrote in message
. com...
This chess engine is now a commercial item, but is still available for
download. The latest
free version I was able to find is 12.13. At any rate, the reason I was
searching for it was an
article I came across ( http://www.lokasoft.nl/uk/deepsjengintro.htm )

that
gave the following
position from a game between GM Boris Alterman and Sjeng, WCCC Exhibition
Maastricht,
09.07.2002.

2rq1rk1/pb1pn1pp/1p2p3/2pn1p2/3P2P1/P1PBPN1P/1P1NQP1R/1K1R4 b - - 0 15

Deep Sjeng (the commercial version which was playing the game) surprised
Alterman by playing 15...Nxc3+!
The article goes on to say, "Deep Sjeng is the only program we know of

that
can find this move instantly."

Curious, I downloaded Sjeng (not Deep Sjeng!), version 12.13, from
http://users.pandora.be/sjeng/download.html
Note that this is the old, free version, and not the new commercial

version.
The engine works fine in Fritz8, so I
selected it, and then inputted the position above. Lo and behold, the

12.13
free version also selects 15...Nxc3+
immediately, even on my lowly antiquated PII-233MHz machine. I then

started
Fritz8 analyzing the position and
after ten minutes it had still not even considered Nxc3+.

I would like to know what you all think of this? Why would Sjeng be

able
to solve this position immediately, while
others don't seem able to?

Regards,
Jeff Stephens





  #3  
Old July 26th 03, 02:50 PM
Ava Keech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sjeng Chess Engine - Curious results

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:27:56 GMT, "Jeff Stephens"
wrote:

Why would Sjeng be able to solve this position immediately, while
others don't seem able to?


Without getting into a technical explanation on how chess engines function here
is the answer. That's just the way that engine works.


  #4  
Old July 26th 03, 04:27 PM
Jeff Stephens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sjeng Chess Engine - Curious results


"Ava Keech" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:27:56 GMT, "Jeff Stephens"


wrote:

Why would Sjeng be able to solve this position immediately, while
others don't seem able to?


Without getting into a technical explanation on how chess engines function

here
is the answer. That's just the way that engine works.




The surprising thing is that the article seemed to suggest that Deep Sjeng
represented some
quantum leap forward in that it was the "only" engine able to solve this
problem immediately.
Yet, I had seen no traffic in this forum regarding this great new engine. I
was really surprised
that the "old" free version "also" solves the problem immediately! Perhaps
this great new
commercial version is really no better than its predecessor despite working
on multiprocessor
mboards. Also, I think the commercial version is priced at around $50.
Quite a rip-off if it's
really no better than its freely available predecessor.

Regards,
Jeff Stephens


  #5  
Old July 26th 03, 06:23 PM
Philip
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sjeng Chess Engine - Curious results


"mondo" wrote in In that position Junior 8, Shredder 7,
and Hiarcs 8, Crafty 19.01 all
almost immediately pick ...Nxc3. So just be skeptical in reading any
information that is used to sell you something.


On my hardware Junior 8 gives ...Nxc3 as first choice in about 15 secs (It
gave ...Nxc3 as second choice from word go).

Crafty 19.01 found it in around 30 secs.

Shredder 7 gave equal numerical value to ...cxd4 and ...Nxc3 after 9 secs.

Ruffian 1.0.1 found it in around 1 min 30 secs.


  #6  
Old July 26th 03, 06:45 PM
Simon Waters
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sjeng Chess Engine - Curious results

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

mondo wrote:

In that position Junior 8, Shredder 7, and Hiarcs 8, Crafty 19.01 all
almost immediately pick ...Nxc3. So just be skeptical in reading any
information that is used to sell you something.


How many pick the "GMs" move 21. Rh1 out of interest?

GNU Chess 5 eventualy sees the Nxc3, Nd5 Nc3, line and decides black has
more interesting things to do.

Is it being terminally dumb in it's assessment of whites Kings safety,
or is this line just not as convincing as it was in the game?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQE/Ir4pGFXfHI9FVgYRAslwAJ9dgbU00Bb7fY3p+Ej2dCVkQsuB2Q CeIMGp
zn8fV7ZQyAF8r1CJ/t5z32M=
=QQR9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  #7  
Old July 27th 03, 04:29 AM
Brian
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sjeng Chess Engine - Curious results

There are some positions that some engines solve instantly. It may take
Fritz 10 minutes to get it, and I'm sure the reverse is true as well. It's
the way engines work.

DS is improved (especially DS 1.5) over Sjeng 12.13. Curious myself, I put
both in a tournament. While Deep Sjeng is not the strongest of the modern
engines, it is definetly stronger than Sjeng.

-Brian


"Jeff Stephens" wrote in message
news

"Ava Keech" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:27:56 GMT, "Jeff Stephens"


wrote:

Why would Sjeng be able to solve this position immediately, while
others don't seem able to?


Without getting into a technical explanation on how chess engines

function
here
is the answer. That's just the way that engine works.




The surprising thing is that the article seemed to suggest that Deep Sjeng
represented some
quantum leap forward in that it was the "only" engine able to solve this
problem immediately.
Yet, I had seen no traffic in this forum regarding this great new engine.

I
was really surprised
that the "old" free version "also" solves the problem immediately!

Perhaps
this great new
commercial version is really no better than its predecessor despite

working
on multiprocessor
mboards. Also, I think the commercial version is priced at around $50.
Quite a rip-off if it's
really no better than its freely available predecessor.

Regards,
Jeff Stephens




  #8  
Old July 27th 03, 01:29 PM
Jeff Stephens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sjeng Chess Engine - Curious results


"Brian" wrote in message
...
There are some positions that some engines solve instantly. It may take
Fritz 10 minutes to get it, and I'm sure the reverse is true as well.

It's
the way engines work.

DS is improved (especially DS 1.5) over Sjeng 12.13. Curious myself, I

put
both in a tournament. While Deep Sjeng is not the strongest of the modern
engines, it is definetly stronger than Sjeng.

-Brian


The thing that's difficult for me to understand about Fritz8 missing this
move is that
Nxc3+ is both a "capture" and a "check." I thought all the chess programs
were written
specifically to examine such moves in-depth. For this reason, I find myself
concluding
that Frit8 (and Fritz7 for that matter as I tested it also w/same results)
must have some
serious flaw in its move calculating algorithm which should be corrected.
In other words,
if I were the author of Fritz8, I would be analyzing my software to find out
why it doesn't
find this move.

Regards,
JeffS


"Jeff Stephens" wrote in message
news

"Ava Keech" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:27:56 GMT, "Jeff Stephens"


wrote:

Why would Sjeng be able to solve this position immediately, while
others don't seem able to?

Without getting into a technical explanation on how chess engines

function
here
is the answer. That's just the way that engine works.




The surprising thing is that the article seemed to suggest that Deep

Sjeng
represented some
quantum leap forward in that it was the "only" engine able to solve this
problem immediately.
Yet, I had seen no traffic in this forum regarding this great new

engine.
I
was really surprised
that the "old" free version "also" solves the problem immediately!

Perhaps
this great new
commercial version is really no better than its predecessor despite

working
on multiprocessor
mboards. Also, I think the commercial version is priced at around $50.
Quite a rip-off if it's
really no better than its freely available predecessor.

Regards,
Jeff Stephens







  #9  
Old July 27th 03, 04:53 PM
Gian-Carlo Pascutto
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sjeng Chess Engine - Curious results

The surprising thing is that the article seemed to suggest that Deep Sjeng
represented some quantum leap forward in that it was the "only" engine

able
to solve this problem immediately.


Solving a single position doesn't say anything about an engines strength,
and the page certainly doesn't imply it does.

But it says something about playing style, and as such, I think it's a
great example.

Yet, I had seen no traffic in this forum regarding this great new engine.

I
was really surprised that the "old" free version "also" solves the problem
immediately! Perhaps this great new commercial version is really no

better
than its predecessor despite working on multiprocessor mboards. Also, I

think
the commercial version is priced at around $50.
Quite a rip-off if it's really no better than its freely available

predecessor.

Deep Sjeng 1.0 is about 200 ELO stronger (more if you have a multiprocessor
machine),
comes with it's own interface (latest version of ChessPartner), a
professional level
openings book, multivariation analysis, full UCI and WinBoard compatibility,
configurable personalities with settable difficulty levels, and so on.

If you buy Deep Sjeng 1.0, you can adittionally download a free update
(Deep Sjeng 1.5) that is another 30-50 ELO stronger and has some other
extras.

Not 'quite' a rip-off, I'd say.

--
GCP


  #10  
Old July 27th 03, 06:15 PM
Jeff Stephens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sjeng Chess Engine - Curious results


"Gian-Carlo Pascutto" wrote in message
...
The surprising thing is that the article seemed to suggest that Deep

Sjeng
represented some quantum leap forward in that it was the "only" engine

able
to solve this problem immediately.


Solving a single position doesn't say anything about an engines strength,
and the page certainly doesn't imply it does.

I would have to respectfully disagree with your statement here. As an
absurd
example, but one which illustrates my point, suppose you set up a
mate-in-one
position and a particular engine failed to find it. Certainly one would be
justified
in saying that the strength of the engine in question was less than
desireable (and I
think one could say this would also apply to mate-in-two/three/four, etc. up
to some
reasonable number given today's CPUs).

Also, I read the recent book by the chief engineer of Big Blue regarding its
creation,
and its match against Kasparov. In this book the engineer describes several
instances
where the machine and its program failed to find the best move in a
particular postition
and they then did an indepth analysis of the program to find out why. They
would then
tune the software or massage the algorithms as circumstances warranted. In
this vein,
as I stated in my most recent post, if I were the Fritz8 architect, I would
want to know
why it doesn't find the move Nxc3+ (a particularly grievious oversight IMHO
because
the move, as I explained previously, is both a Capture and a Check, and I
thought that
it was derigeur in the current state of chess program construction that all
such moves should
be examined very closely.

Deep Sjeng 1.0 is about 200 ELO stronger (more if you have a

multiprocessor
machine),
comes with it's own interface (latest version of ChessPartner), a
professional level
openings book, multivariation analysis, full UCI and WinBoard

compatibility,
configurable personalities with settable difficulty levels, and so on.

If you buy Deep Sjeng 1.0, you can adittionally download a free update
(Deep Sjeng 1.5) that is another 30-50 ELO stronger and has some other
extras.

Not 'quite' a rip-off, I'd say.


Agreed, and I stand corrected.

Regards,
Jeff Stephens

--
GCP





 




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