Hello. I just installed Chessmaster 9000(purchased new for $9.99 at Circuit City) and have a question as to why the "endgame" plays so weak compared to my old 5500 version. I set-up a simple position of White King on e1 and White Pawn on e4 and Black King on e8 with White to move first using the Chessmaster ID against itself with 30 seconds per move allowed. I was suprised to see the white pawn advance all the way to the end of the board without any help from the White King! I did a "Full" install, not just the "typical" install. Here is the PGN-

[Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date "2006.8.26"]
[Round ""]
[White "Chessmaster"]
[Black "Chessmaster"]
[TimeControl "?"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Setup "1"]
[FEN "4k3/8/8/8/4P3/8/8/4K3 w - - 0 1"]

1.e5 Kd7 2.e6+ Ke8 3.e7 Kd7 4.e8=Q+ Kxe8 1/2-1/2

Quite a silly endgame! What might I have done wrong on my set-up since I didn't see anyone else complain about this situation in a search. I have Windows 98 and a 6 year old Dell Computer but everything else with Chessmaster 9000 seems a-ok.

-Keith

Keith123 wrote:

[FEN "4k3/8/8/8/4P3/8/8/4K3 w - - 0 1"]

1.e5 Kd7 2.e6+ Ke8 3.e7 Kd7 4.e8=Q+ Kxe8 1/2-1/2

Quite a silly endgame!

According to the endgame tablebases: Position=0, Kf1=0, Kd2=0, Ke2=0,
Kf2=0, e5=0, Kd1=0. In other words, all moves draw and are silly!

I suppose you're studying endgames? You can tweak Chessmaster.

1. In "Setup Persoanlity" choose Chessmaster and uncheck endgame
databaes. Chessmaster will "forget" which endings are won, draw, loss,
etc and calculate its play like usual. It's about 50-100 ELO weaker.

2. Increase the "Randomness" setting. Now it will try to win endgames a
little differently every time, which tests your knowledge better.

Visit forums.ubi.com or rec.chess.computer for the CM9000 experts. :-)

Thanks for the reply. Just seems weird that Chessmaster would send a pawn on a guaranteed suicide mission when White might have a chance to win if Black does not play perfect. It was easy for me to see not to follow the technique of Chessmaster in this simple endgame test, but what other situations might lead me the wrong way in my learning?! I will try some of your "tweaking" suggestions and see how it goes. Oh well, right now I can't reach an endgame in a real game against Chessmaster anyway!

Keith123 wrote:
Wrote:

According to the endgame tablebases: Position=0, Kf1=0, Kd2=0, Ke2=0,
Kf2=0, e5=0, Kd1=0. In other words, all moves draw and are silly!

Thanks for the reply. Just seems weird that Chessmaster would send a
pawn on a guaranteed suicide mission when White might have a chance to
win if Black does not play perfect. It was easy for me to see not to
follow the technique of Chessmaster in this simple endgame test, but
what other situations might lead me the wrong way in my learning?! I
will try some of your "tweaking" suggestions and see how it goes. Oh
well, right now I can't reach an endgame in a real game against
Chessmaster anyway!

Almost all implementations of endgame databases will play a
"random-looking" move when the game is determined to be a draw. Another
example is KRB vs KR, when the computer will trade rooks rather than
force the opponent with less material to "prove the draw".

Only a very few engines have implemented what is called a "swindle
mode" for endgames. Crafty is the only one I know of for sure, and it
typically only uses it when it knows it's playing against a human. In
this mode, it will eliminate the kinds of moves that you saw against
Chessmaster in the hopes that the opponent won't properly play the
endgame.

Here's how Chessmaster would play out the ending without endgame
databases:

[Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date "2006.8.28"]
[Round ""]
[White "CM NO EGDB"]
[Black "CM NO EGDB"]
[TimeControl "?"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Setup "1"]
[FEN "4k3/8/8/8/4P3/8/8/4K3 w - - 0 1"]

1.Kd2 Kd7 2.Ke3 Ke6 3.Kf4 Kf6 4.Kg3 Ke5 5.Kf3 Kd6 6.Ke2 Ke5 7.Kd3 Kf6
8.Kd4 Ke6 9.e5 Kf7 10.Ke3 Ke6 11.Kf4 Kf7 12.Kf5 Ke7 13.e6 Ke8 14.Ke4
Ke7
15.Kd5 Ke8 16.Kd4 Kf8 17.Ke5 Ke7 18.Kd4 Kxe6 1/2-1/2

jm

I like your example as Chessmaster at least tries for a win even though at move 18.kd4 White suddenly gives up trying to win. My "Chessbase Light" program also suggests moves in the above position that allows a draw sooner than I would expect. I watched the Waitzkin tutorial on Chessmaster 9000 on this kind of basic endgame and it was quite excellent in my opinion so the $9.99 I spent will be well worth it!

Keith123 wrote:
Wrote:

Here's how Chessmaster would play out the ending without endgame
databases:

[Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date "2006.8.28"]
[Round ""]
[White "CM NO EGDB"]
[Black "CM NO EGDB"]
[TimeControl "?"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Setup "1"]
[FEN "4k3/8/8/8/4P3/8/8/4K3 w - - 0 1"]

1.Kd2 Kd7 2.Ke3 Ke6 3.Kf4 Kf6 4.Kg3 Ke5 5.Kf3 Kd6 6.Ke2 Ke5 7.Kd3 Kf6
8.Kd4 Ke6 9.e5 Kf7 10.Ke3 Ke6 11.Kf4 Kf7 12.Kf5 Ke7 13.e6 Ke8 14.Ke4
Ke7
15.Kd5 Ke8 16.Kd4 Kf8 17.Ke5 Ke7 18.Kd4 Kxe6 1/2-1/2

jmI like your example as Chessmaster at least tries for a win even though
at move 18.kd4 White suddenly gives up trying to win. My "Chessbase
Light" program also suggests moves in the above position that allows a
draw sooner than I would expect. I watched the Waitzkin tutorial on
Chessmaster 9000 on this kind of basic endgame and it was quite
excellent in my opinion so the $9.99 I spent will be well worth it!

--
Keith123

Chessmaster is a phenomenal buy, even if you pay full price. At least,
that's my humble opinion. :-)

jm

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:21:50 +0200, Keith123
wrote:


Hello. I just installed Chessmaster 9000(purchased new for $9.99 at
Circuit City) and have a question as to why the "endgame" plays so
weak compared to my old 5500 version. I set-up a simple position of
White King on e1 and White Pawn on e4 and Black King on e8 with White
to move first using the Chessmaster ID against itself with 30 seconds
per move allowed. I was suprised to see the white pawn advance all the
way to the end of the board without any help from the White King! I
did a "Full" install, not just the "typical" install. Here is the PGN-


[Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date "2006.8.26"]
[Round ""]
[White "Chessmaster"]
[Black "Chessmaster"]
[TimeControl "?"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Setup "1"]
[FEN "4k3/8/8/8/4P3/8/8/4K3 w - - 0 1"]

1.e5 Kd7 2.e6+ Ke8 3.e7 Kd7 4.e8=Q+ Kxe8 1/2-1/2

Quite a silly endgame! What might I have done wrong on my set-up since
I didn't see anyone else complain about this situation in a search. I
have Windows 98 and a 6 year old Dell Computer but everything else with
Chessmaster 9000 seems a-ok.

-Keith

The game is dead draw. Try replacing positions of white king and pawn and
you'll see. White will win 100 %.


--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

I would not send my Pawn alone up the board if I was playing White and If I was Black I would eat the Pawn right away when it first checked me. It is a draw with correct play on both sides but I had wondered why Chessmaster wanted to play out the moves the way it did. Only two beginners would play out the moves the way Chessmaster did. I don't have a problem accepting the position is a draw with best play just that the technique of Chessmaster to reach the draw looked funny.