On 2007-01-10, help bot wrote:

Ralf Callenberg wrote:
No, for me as a user I absolutely don't care about those constraints
for the programmer.

It is not the programmer which is constrained; it is the
user computer's resources. Heck, the mere fact that
I can run Windows and multiple browsers while Sanny's
chess program thinks in the background in itself shows
how this cannot be compared to any normal chess
program, which tries to hog as much resources as
possible to improve *playing strength* and for something
called *hashtables* -- two superfluous items which
Sanny's team have simply eliminated. ;D

I normally have a lot going on on my computer: I have 20 desktops
open, at least 10 in use at any time, typically 10 or more tabs
open in Firefox, often IE running under wine, and Opera; at least 3
local shell windows; 3 to 6 shell windows on remote machines;
Gentoo file manager; 2 to 4 emacs windows; Pine (mail program);
slrn (news reader); xmms (mediaplayer); several background tasks
that run every 5 to 15 minutes (e.g., to fetch mail and Usenet
messages); other programs as required.

I find that Sanny's program slows down my computer much more
noticeably than any other chess program (e.g., gnuchess or crafty).

--
Chris F.A. Johnson http://cfaj.freeshell.org
================================================== =================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

I bring my pieces in position,
double the rooks, prepare pawn attacks etc. He gives me all the time in
the world, no counter attack, nothing. He completely ignores my
preparations, as they don't include immediate threats. It's simply way
beyond his horizon. Even weak human players would realize what is going


Please tell me what should the Computer do when you have doubled your
Rook which is not attacking any of computer's pieces.

What is a pawn attack, Each pawn will get exchanged for another pawn I
think?

What do you meant by counter Attack. What type of attack you are
looking for?

If you could elaborate these points it may help improve the game.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Ralf Callenberg wrote:

There was doubtless some progress, but it is still quite weak. I think,
when people lose against it, they just try too hard to win. Just relax
and play slowly. It will soon start making arbritrary moves without any
progress.

Proving my point. What you have just done is describe
in detail exactly how Sanny's program *used to* play.

No, it is still doing this. In a current game there is an attack
forming, and he has nothing better to do than ridiculous moves like h6,
f6 on the other side of the board. If you don't give him immediate
threats, he very likely makes nonsense moves.

Now
I find that things are a bit more interesting -- but then, I am
not merely shifting wood myself. It is possible that the
real issue here is that you are shifting wood, and expecting
the chess program to come up with some interesting ideas?

Well, if you did this with a strong program he would very soon come up
with interesting ideas... But no, that's not quite the way I play. I
just build up my attack very slowly. I bring my pieces in position,
double the rooks, prepare pawn attacks etc. He gives me all the time in
the world, no counter attack, nothing. He completely ignores my
preparations, as they don't include immediate threats. It's simply way
beyond his horizon. Even weak human players would realize what is going
on and would start *some* action. I couldn't win so easily against the
ELO 1400 players in my club. Have a look at the "best of" on his side -
the first 40 players have a record of something like 360 to 12.

From what I can see, several of the top players at GetClub
consist in multiple identities of: a nearly-an-IM, a 2300+, and
a self-professed chess genius. What sort of record do you
expect Sanny's program to achieve against such opposition?

When I first began playing at GetClub, the program would
often display a search depth between 3 and 5 plys, and its
play was very weak. But lately, things have improved. Now
the program leaps past such lowly numbers in a few seconds,
eventually doing around 8 or 9 plys in midgame. Granted, on
modern hardware this is no great achievement, but critics act
as though Sanny has made no real improvements whatever.
IMO, this is no empty ploy, but likely a genuine indication of
true search depth.

Your comment that you couldn't win so easily against 1400
Elo opposition at your local club may be true, but then, that is
human vs. human. A computer is a horse of a different color.
Suppose you are playing a 1400 and you are a Queen ahead;
in all likelihood, your opponent simply cannot see any tactics
you would miss, so it's in the bag. But computers are a bit
trickier, as world champion Kramnik recently discovered vs.
Deep Fritz, and as former world champ Gary Kasparov also
learned.

Your method of patiently building up an unstoppable attack
of course will work at GetClub, because the program lacks
sufficient depth and is not strong enough to do much of
anything to you, but then, you are going out of your way to
play in anti-computer fashion and this in itself shows that
you are afraid of something, that the program may not be
quite so weak as you claim. Try going toe-to-toe and see
what happens. Your rope-a-dope proves only that the
computer is "bigger" and "badder" at tactics, in your mind.
Probably an illusion, though. The method you have described
is how I try to play (I say, TRY) against commercial programs,
which then beat me anyway on tactics. Here is my admission:
yes, I am afraid of Fritz and Rybka and Hiarcs and the rest! I
admit it. There now: you stop being so afraid of Sanny's
program; stop your hiding and come out and play at tactics!
:D

-- help bot

* Sanny (2007-01-11) schrieb:

If you could elaborate these points it may help improve the game.

It would improve the game if you finally decided to fix the timing
issue.

Some people, including me, would try your site again if you did that.

mfg, simon .... l

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

You have that backwards; it is only 2/3 moves where it plays in the
stated time. The vast majority are longer than claimed, and maybe
half take at least 10 times the stated time.

Indeed, GetClub Chess even now does seem to be somewhat slow (regularly
took over a minute, even on beginner level) ...

I think it must have had some AI improvements in the past week or so,
however, judging by the fact that it took some time to collapse against
me (or perhaps it is that I chose a fairly closed opening compared to
the highly tactical tests GetClub Chess was put to by some others).

WHITE: GetClub Chess
BLACK: Patrick Kalinauskas (Amarande)
ECO: B01 (Scandinavian Defense)

1 e4 d5 2 exd5 Qxd5 3 Nc3 Qd8 4 d4 Nf6 5 Bc4 e6

I decided I would like to see how well GetClub Chess did when offered a
closed opening with few sharp tactical tricks.

6 Nf3 Nc6 7 Bf4 Bb4 8 O-O O-O 9 Nb5 Ba5!

Much better than Ne8, which blocks everything, or Bd6 which gives away
the two Bishops with a cramped game for Black.

10 Qd3

Personally I would prefer to marginalize Black's Bishop somewhat, and
make my center more secure with 10 c3. The Queen's move aims towards my
King's wing, but is there really anything much White can do against it?
There are no real weaknesses, and Bg5 isn't too effective with the White
Knight that should reinforce the pin being on the other side.

10 ... a6

in order to drive back the Knight, which was cramping my game a good bit.

11 Nc3 Bb6 12 Rad1 Nd5

After I played this move I became slightly afraid as I believed that
Bxd5 followed by Ng5 might be dangerous. However, in retrospect ... if
13 Bxd5 exd5 14 Ng5 g6 and Black will soon play Bf5 and f6 and start to
command all over the board. Hence White tries another tack which should
have been very effective but does not follow it up properly.

13 Bg5 f6

Much better than Nf6 or Qd7, though this does weaken e6 and the a2-g8
diagonal somewhat.

14 Bd2 Kh8

in order to avoid any counter attacks involving the semi-weakness of the
a2-g8 diagonal as long as the Black King remains on it.

15 Ne4 Ba7

So far, so good (Junior 9 actually gives White as better here!) but now
GetClub Chess falters. The purpose of White's next move is not clear,
but it is clear that most of White's difficulties from here on out
result from having weakened the King-side in this manner. 16 a4 was more
to the point in order to retard b5; or failing that, simply 16 Rfe1 with
pressure on the center and especially e6.

16 g3? b5 17 Bxd5?

Needlessly giving up the pressure on a2-g8 and giving the two Bishops to
Black. Additionally, now Black's white-squared Bishop is unopposed and
while right now this does not seem important yet it will become very
much so in a few moves. 17 Bb3 was simple and good, and preserves a
slightly better game for White, though not as distinct an advantage as
if White had played the better 16 Rfe1 instead of 16 g3.

17 ... Qxd5!

I did not for a moment consider exd5, which would open c8-h3, but seal
the much more valuable (and eventually winning) a8-h1 diagonal.

18 Nc3 Qh5

Unlike move three, this time it's time for the Queen to adopt an
aggressive position. Junior reports a distinct advantage for Black here
and it is not clear if White really has a good plan. White's next move
is an attempt to pressure e6 in order to discourage Bb7, but it cannot
be prevented for long, after which the diagonal pressure, beginning with
that against f3, quickly becomes intolerable.

19 Rde1 Re8

19 ... e5 may be even stronger, but I preferred the simple defensive
move which keeps the center closed and prevents any real oppositional
movement.

20 Ne4

If 20 d5, then simply Rd8!

20 ... Bb7 21 a3

This is pretty much capitulation but even I don't really see much for
GetClub Chess to try at this point. If e.g. 21 Nc5 Nxd4! 22 Nxd4 Bxc5
and White is done. Even Junior can only come up with the equally,
perhaps even more indifferent 21 b3 as best, giving a -1.78 evaluation,
which underscores White's helplessness at this point.

21 ... f5?

This simple driving away would have been worse at move 15, where White
still has the initiative, but now Black operates with direct threats.

Even so, Junior appears to believe that 21 ... e5 is again stronger
here, and it does appear that GetClub Chess had more resources than it
actually took advantage of in the game.

22 Neg5

If 22 Nc3, then Nxd4 simply collapses everything.

22 ... Nd8 23 Nh4??

This loses a piece without a real fight. Instead after 23 Ne5! Black has
a somewhat difficult time of it, and Junior even reports an advantage
for White again. It looks as if Black would have to give up a pawn to
retain attacking chances, after which the situation is somewhat unclear
particularly with the weak white squares on White's King-side and
Black's two Bishops.

23 ... h6! 24 Nh3

Or 24 Ngf3 g5 and the Knight at f3 loses its support.

24 ... g5 25 Bf4(!)

I have to admire GetClub Chess for this desperate attempt. It hopes that
I will capture the Bishop, after which the situation is much less clear
- after 25 ... gxf4? 26 Nxf4 White's Knights are secure, there is no
direct Black threat and Black's King is somewhat exposed while the QR is
contributing little. Black would have to try to reach the end-game in
order to win, but as yet there is no thought of an end-game.

Instead capturing the Knight as planned is simple and good and leaves
GetClub Chess completely lost, though it does have a few more tricks.

25 ... gxh4! 26 Be5+ Kg8 27 Nf4

hoping that I would retreat my Queen and give White some attacking
chances. But I do not waver, instead seeking the end-game with

27 ... Qf3!

forcing the exchange of Queens (else there is mate at g2 or h1)

28 Qxf3 Bxf3 29 Re3 Bb7 30 c3 c5 31 Nh5 cxd4!!

The Exchange is no longer important here. If White accepts it then he
loses his only protector of the White squares which my Knight and QB
will proceed to have a field day on.

32 Nf6+ Kf7 33 Rd3

As White's game is already quite lost, there is no more need to apply ?
marks to moves. However, either 33 Nxe8 (despite the fact that this
leaves White defenseless even though reducing the material deficit) or
33 cxd4 would have been a shade better.

33 ... dxc3 34 Bxc3 Re7 35 gxh4

This allows Black to begin a direct mating attack; however, there is no
reasonable course of action. GetClub Chess could have resigned now but
prefers to wait for the forced mate.

35 ... Nc6

in order to free the QR, after which the full fury of Black's forces is
soon turned and mate cannot long be delayed.

36 h3 e5 37 Nd5 Re6! 38 Bd2

If 38 Nc7, Black simply breaks the fork with either Rg8+ or Rg6+.

38 ... Rg6+ 39 Kh2

at least avoiding the direct eye of the Bishop (39 Kh1 is not really
much worse)

39 ... Nd4! 40 h5

Finally getting desperate. If 40 Ne3 Nxf3+ wins the Bishop. If 40 Nc3,
40 Nb4, or 40 Nc7, then mate follows with 40 ... Rg2+ 41 Kh1 Rxf2+ 42
Kg1 Rg2+ 43 Kh1 Rxd2+ 44 Ne4 (if 44 Kg1 Nf3++ and 45 ... Rh2#) Bxe4+ 45
Rff3 (Rdf3 leads to a similar mate) Bxf3+ 46 Kg1 (46 Rxf3 Nxf3 and 47
.... Rh2#) Nc2+ 47 Rd4 Bxd4 48 Kf1 Bg2#.

40 ... Rgg8 41 Nc3 Rg2+ 42 Kh1 Rag8

This mates, but 42 ... Rxf2+ mates a few moves sooner.

43 f3 Nxf3!

The fork Rd7+ need not be feared, as Rh2# is threatened. If 44 Rdxf3
Bxf3 45 Rxf3 Rg1+ 46 Kh2 R8g2# is mate.

44 Rd7+ Ke6 45 Rd6+ Kxd6 46 Nxb5+ axb5

Here GetClub Chess asked me to enter my name and returned me to the main
page. The final moves would be: 47 Bb4+ Ke6 48 Rxf3 Rg1+ 49 Kh2 and
finally 49 ... R8g2 mate.

Amarande wrote:
Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

You have that backwards; it is only 2/3 moves where it plays in the
stated time. The vast majority are longer than claimed, and maybe
half take at least 10 times the stated time.

Indeed, GetClub Chess even now does seem to be somewhat slow (regularly
took over a minute, even on beginner level) ...

I think it must have had some AI improvements in the past week or so,
however, judging by the fact that it took some time to collapse against
me (or perhaps it is that I chose a fairly closed opening compared to
the highly tactical tests GetClub Chess was put to by some others).

WHITE: GetClub Chess
BLACK: Patrick Kalinauskas (Amarande)
ECO: B01 (Scandinavian Defense)

1 e4 d5 2 exd5 Qxd5 3 Nc3 Qd8 4 d4 Nf6 5 Bc4 e6

I decided I would like to see how well GetClub Chess did when offered a
closed opening with few sharp tactical tricks.

6 Nf3 Nc6 7 Bf4 Bb4 8 O-O O-O 9 Nb5 Ba5!

Much better than Ne8, which blocks everything, or Bd6 which gives away
the two Bishops with a cramped game for Black.

10 Qd3

Personally I would prefer to marginalize Black's Bishop somewhat, and
make my center more secure with 10 c3. The Queen's move aims towards my
King's wing, but is there really anything much White can do against it?
There are no real weaknesses, and Bg5 isn't too effective with the White
Knight that should reinforce the pin being on the other side.

10 ... a6

in order to drive back the Knight, which was cramping my game a good bit.

11 Nc3 Bb6 12 Rad1 Nd5

After I played this move I became slightly afraid as I believed that
Bxd5 followed by Ng5 might be dangerous. However, in retrospect ... if
13 Bxd5 exd5 14 Ng5 g6 and Black will soon play Bf5 and f6 and start to
command all over the board. Hence White tries another tack which should
have been very effective but does not follow it up properly.

13 Bg5 f6

Much better than Nf6 or Qd7, though this does weaken e6 and the a2-g8
diagonal somewhat.

14 Bd2 Kh8

in order to avoid any counter attacks involving the semi-weakness of the
a2-g8 diagonal as long as the Black King remains on it.

15 Ne4 Ba7

So far, so good (Junior 9 actually gives White as better here!) but now
GetClub Chess falters. The purpose of White's next move is not clear,
but it is clear that most of White's difficulties from here on out
result from having weakened the King-side in this manner. 16 a4 was more
to the point in order to retard b5; or failing that, simply 16 Rfe1 with
pressure on the center and especially e6.

16 g3? b5 17 Bxd5?

Needlessly giving up the pressure on a2-g8 and giving the two Bishops to
Black. Additionally, now Black's white-squared Bishop is unopposed and
while right now this does not seem important yet it will become very
much so in a few moves. 17 Bb3 was simple and good, and preserves a
slightly better game for White, though not as distinct an advantage as
if White had played the better 16 Rfe1 instead of 16 g3.

17 ... Qxd5!

I did not for a moment consider exd5, which would open c8-h3, but seal
the much more valuable (and eventually winning) a8-h1 diagonal.

18 Nc3 Qh5

Unlike move three, this time it's time for the Queen to adopt an
aggressive position. Junior reports a distinct advantage for Black here
and it is not clear if White really has a good plan. White's next move
is an attempt to pressure e6 in order to discourage Bb7, but it cannot
be prevented for long, after which the diagonal pressure, beginning with
that against f3, quickly becomes intolerable.

19 Rde1 Re8

19 ... e5 may be even stronger, but I preferred the simple defensive
move which keeps the center closed and prevents any real oppositional
movement.

20 Ne4

If 20 d5, then simply Rd8!

20 ... Bb7 21 a3

This is pretty much capitulation but even I don't really see much for
GetClub Chess to try at this point. If e.g. 21 Nc5 Nxd4! 22 Nxd4 Bxc5
and White is done. Even Junior can only come up with the equally,
perhaps even more indifferent 21 b3 as best, giving a -1.78 evaluation,
which underscores White's helplessness at this point.

21 ... f5?

This simple driving away would have been worse at move 15, where White
still has the initiative, but now Black operates with direct threats.

Even so, Junior appears to believe that 21 ... e5 is again stronger
here, and it does appear that GetClub Chess had more resources than it
actually took advantage of in the game.

22 Neg5

If 22 Nc3, then Nxd4 simply collapses everything.

22 ... Nd8 23 Nh4??

This loses a piece without a real fight. Instead after 23 Ne5! Black has
a somewhat difficult time of it, and Junior even reports an advantage
for White again. It looks as if Black would have to give up a pawn to
retain attacking chances, after which the situation is somewhat unclear
particularly with the weak white squares on White's King-side and
Black's two Bishops.

23 ... h6! 24 Nh3

Or 24 Ngf3 g5 and the Knight at f3 loses its support.

24 ... g5 25 Bf4(!)

I have to admire GetClub Chess for this desperate attempt. It hopes that
I will capture the Bishop, after which the situation is much less clear
- after 25 ... gxf4? 26 Nxf4 White's Knights are secure, there is no
direct Black threat and Black's King is somewhat exposed while the QR is
contributing little. Black would have to try to reach the end-game in
order to win, but as yet there is no thought of an end-game.

Instead capturing the Knight as planned is simple and good and leaves
GetClub Chess completely lost, though it does have a few more tricks.

25 ... gxh4! 26 Be5+ Kg8 27 Nf4

hoping that I would retreat my Queen and give White some attacking
chances. But I do not waver, instead seeking the end-game with

27 ... Qf3!

forcing the exchange of Queens (else there is mate at g2 or h1)

28 Qxf3 Bxf3 29 Re3 Bb7 30 c3 c5 31 Nh5 cxd4!!

The Exchange is no longer important here. If White accepts it then he
loses his only protector of the White squares which my Knight and QB
will proceed to have a field day on.

32 Nf6+ Kf7 33 Rd3

As White's game is already quite lost, there is no more need to apply ?
marks to moves. However, either 33 Nxe8 (despite the fact that this
leaves White defenseless even though reducing the material deficit) or
33 cxd4 would have been a shade better.

33 ... dxc3 34 Bxc3 Re7 35 gxh4

This allows Black to begin a direct mating attack; however, there is no
reasonable course of action. GetClub Chess could have resigned now but
prefers to wait for the forced mate.

35 ... Nc6

in order to free the QR, after which the full fury of Black's forces is
soon turned and mate cannot long be delayed.

36 h3 e5 37 Nd5 Re6! 38 Bd2

If 38 Nc7, Black simply breaks the fork with either Rg8+ or Rg6+.

38 ... Rg6+ 39 Kh2

at least avoiding the direct eye of the Bishop (39 Kh1 is not really
much worse)

39 ... Nd4! 40 h5

Finally getting desperate. If 40 Ne3 Nxf3+ wins the Bishop. If 40 Nc3,
40 Nb4, or 40 Nc7, then mate follows with 40 ... Rg2+ 41 Kh1 Rxf2+ 42
Kg1 Rg2+ 43 Kh1 Rxd2+ 44 Ne4 (if 44 Kg1 Nf3++ and 45 ... Rh2#) Bxe4+ 45
Rff3 (Rdf3 leads to a similar mate) Bxf3+ 46 Kg1 (46 Rxf3 Nxf3 and 47
... Rh2#) Nc2+ 47 Rd4 Bxd4 48 Kf1 Bg2#.

40 ... Rgg8 41 Nc3 Rg2+ 42 Kh1 Rag8

This mates, but 42 ... Rxf2+ mates a few moves sooner.

43 f3 Nxf3!

The fork Rd7+ need not be feared, as Rh2# is threatened. If 44 Rdxf3
Bxf3 45 Rxf3 Rg1+ 46 Kh2 R8g2# is mate.

44 Rd7+ Ke6 45 Rd6+ Kxd6 46 Nxb5+ axb5

Here GetClub Chess asked me to enter my name and returned me to the main
page. The final moves would be: 47 Bb4+ Ke6 48 Rxf3 Rg1+ 49 Kh2 and
finally 49 ... R8g2 mate.



This game was not difficult for you as you played with Beginner Level.

Try playing with Easy & Normal Levels they will give good Challenge.
And also upon login your game will be recorded to be seen by all.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

How does one claim a draw in your program?

After about six times repeating a position, it provides no apparent
way to claim the draw.

--
Chris F.A. Johnson http://cfaj.freeshell.org
================================================== =================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
How does one claim a draw in your program?

After about six times repeating a position, it provides no apparent
way to claim the draw.

There are no draws in Sanny-Chess. Play on until one of you drops dead
from boredom.

many improvements have been made. make you happy, long time, Joe.


--
Kenneth Sloan
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/