Mike Leahy wrote:
"Mike Leahy" wrote in message
...

So far it looks like "closed loop opt-in" is fixing a problem we don't

have.

Enabling "closed loop opt-in" won't fix the problem of a roque entering
email addresses maliciously anyway. The unwitting person(s) will still get
the confirmation email(s) from us and feel pestered by us.

Recieving one confirmation request from a mailing list is certainly
better than just recieving the traffic. People are pretty used to this
system; I am replying to confirmation requests all the time to enter
discussion groups on linux software...it is SOP by now. I am also on
several lists that I never subscribed to that have "remove" links...they
get filtered by my spam filter and possibly turned into my ISP as
spammers - let them talk themselves out of it with the blacklist owners...

The closed loop system is not about protecting the list owner, it is
about protecting innocent parties that don't want your list's traffic.
Without this system in place you could very well be repeatedly pestering
people who never saw, downloaded, or used your software and never joined
your list. Without this system in place, it is only a matter of time
before someone gets mad enough about it to turn you in and you get added
to a blacklist - I would.

Confirmation is very easy to deal with on the recieving side...just hit
reply and send...it is a very minor hassle to avoid a very serious problem.

The best advice is to keep your email address off of usenet or anywhere one
of these chaps could find it. Give it only to people/companies that can be
trusted.

The best advice is for list maintainers to be responsible. Spammers and
assholes will get email adresses that do not belong to them; it is a
given. List maintainers must be responsible to make sure that they are
not sending messages in an unsolicited manner. Not having a
confirmation system in place is irresponsible in my opinion.

I don't care for the assmunches that have been spewing forth hate at you
here in this forum - I have filtered most of them and all the domains
they vomit forth from. But I do think that you are acting irresponsibly
maintaining a list that does not confirm that messages are sent to
people who actually subscribed to the list.

NR



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Mike Leahy wrote:

So far it looks like "closed loop opt-in" is fixing a problem we don't
have.

And the "ass munchies" (Thanks, Noah! I love that label :-) now know that
you don't have an opt-in mailing list. I wouldn't be at all surprised if
they make their accusation of you being a spammer become a self-fullfilling
prophecy by mass sign-ups of unknowing folks to your list.

You are in danger of being placed on other lists yourself: blackhole lists
from anti-spam groups.

--
Cheers,
Rob

Mike Ogush says...

The person running the
program could just set the program up to add the same list of names to
each list over and over again. The result would be people flooded
with spurious opt-in messages in their e-mail inbox.

Responsible email lists only send you one opt-in request no matter
how many times someone tries to sign you up. That's the way the
system works. In addition, most mailing list owners won't accept
sign-up attempts from anyone on a RBL, and will add anyone trying
to sign up multiple email addresses from the same IP address to the
RBLs.

Mike Leahy says...

Enabling "closed loop opt-in" won't fix the problem of a roque entering
email addresses maliciously anyway. The unwitting person(s) will still get
the confirmation email(s) from us and feel pestered by us.

The RBLs look at the spam reports and discard them if someone reports
a legitimate opt-in email.


Mike Leahy says...

Here are the two reasons I have not enabled it yet: It adds another
inconvenient step for our customers just to protect us, and I've not had a
single case of someone adding someone else's email address to our list
without permission.

How do you know? Only an idiot replies to an "opt-out" from a source
that they don't know - it just tells the spammers that they found an
address that a human reads. I doubt if 0.1% of spam recipients send
any sort of reply to the spammer.

Our usenet rogues have gone to great lengths to anger Bookup customers

....which is all the more reason why your mailing list practices should
be squeaky clean and beyond reproach.

Right now, the worst that can happen is a rogue enters your email
address and you start to get an emailed course on using Bookup 2000 Express
(that you did not request), and each email contains a "remove" link. You
might then assume that we're spamming, and that the remove link probably
doesn't even function. Voila, I'm smeared and the customer is annoyed.

That *isn't* the worst that could happen. The worst that can happen is
that I do what I and thousands like me do when we start getting
unsolicited email from you or anyone else; we report the spammer at
[ http://www.spamcop.net/ ], you end up on the SpamCop RBL (Real-time
Blacklist), and suddenly a large percentage of your mailing list stops
getting any email from you because you are blocked by their spam filters.
Your present policy is going to bite you on the arse someday.

So far it looks like "closed loop opt-in" is fixing a problem we don't have.

I have the same situation with my car. Neither the seat belt or the
bumpers have ever been needed. They fix a problem (crashing) that I
don't have. What idiot installed those seatbelts? If I ever get into
a crash, *then* I will have seatbelts installed!

Having great sympathy towards you because of the attack by kooks and
because I have heard good things about your product, I was really
hoping to be able to announce that Mike Leahy does not spam. Alas,
I must instead annouce that Mike Leahy doesn't care whether he spams
or doesn't spam.

Nonyz says...

The issue of you spamming your customers and persons who sign up for
your trial are pretty old hat. One understands you have desisted from
spamming your customets and have now installed spyware with bookup to
make up for lost revenue, which is causing some trial users (with Win
XP) serious issues, including a complete crashing and corruption of
Windows, forcing the users to completely reinstall Windows and ALL
applications. These persons have my sympathy. How about addressing
this issue rather than boring everybody by repeating over and over
that you don't spam anymore?

If these allegations had been made *once* I would be checking bookup
for spyware. The fact that the attacks on Mike Leahy involve spamming
and impersonating makes me reject them out of hand. If you have a
legitimate complaint, too bad. Your own actions have made you a
pariah among reasonable people.

Why should I pay attention to someone whi crossposts to:
rec.games.chess.misc, rec.games.board.marketplace,
no.fritid.spill.sjakk, rec.games.chess.computer, and
rec.games.board.ce?

Guy Macon http://www.guymacon.com wrote:
Why should I pay attention to someone whi crossposts to:
rec.games.chess.misc, rec.games.board.marketplace,
no.fritid.spill.sjakk, rec.games.chess.computer, and
rec.games.board.ce?

That's a very good question. Why *are* you paying attention to somebody
who cross-posts to rec.games.chess.misc, rec.games.board.marketplace,
no.fritid.spill.sjakk, rec.games.chess.computer, and rec.games.board.ce ?


Dave.

--
David Richerby Incredible Portable Watch (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a precision chronometer but you
can take it anywhere and it'll blow
your mind!

David Richerby wrote in message ...
Guy Macon http://www.guymacon.com wrote:
Why should I pay attention to someone whi crossposts to:
rec.games.chess.misc, rec.games.board.marketplace,
no.fritid.spill.sjakk, rec.games.chess.computer, and
rec.games.board.ce?

That's a very good question. Why *are* you paying attention to somebody
who cross-posts to rec.games.chess.misc, rec.games.board.marketplace,
no.fritid.spill.sjakk, rec.games.chess.computer, and rec.games.board.ce ?


Dave.

Yes.... You are giving a sad and inadequate attention seeker the
"oxygen of publicity" he craves. Best leave well alone.
Margaret

David Richerby says...

Guy Macon http://www.guymacon.com wrote:

Why should I pay attention to someone whi crossposts to:
rec.games.chess.misc, rec.games.board.marketplace,
no.fritid.spill.sjakk, rec.games.chess.computer, and
rec.games.board.ce?

That's a very good question. Why *are* you paying attention to somebody
who cross-posts to rec.games.chess.misc, rec.games.board.marketplace,
no.fritid.spill.sjakk, rec.games.chess.computer, and rec.games.board.ce ?

Point well taken. I plead temporary insanity caused by running
out of Jolt! Cola...

(Hangs head in shame...)

"Guy Macon" http://www.guymacon.com wrote in message
...
Our usenet rogues have gone to great lengths to anger Bookup customers

...which is all the more reason why your mailing list practices should
be squeaky clean and beyond reproach.

I've considered it for just that reason.

Right now, the worst that can happen is a rogue enters your email
address and you start to get an emailed course on using Bookup 2000
Express
(that you did not request), and each email contains a "remove" link. You
might then assume that we're spamming, and that the remove link probably
doesn't even function. Voila, I'm smeared and the customer is annoyed.

That *isn't* the worst that could happen. The worst that can happen is
that I do what I and thousands like me do when we start getting
unsolicited email from you or anyone else; we report the spammer at
[ http://www.spamcop.net/ ], you end up on the SpamCop RBL (Real-time
Blacklist), and suddenly a large percentage of your mailing list stops
getting any email from you because you are blocked by their spam filters.
Your present policy is going to bite you on the arse someday.

Thanks for defining "RBL." I was beginning to think that I was the last
person who didn't know what that stood for.

And I agree that the worst thing that could happen would involve being
smeared as a spammer, but I disagree that forcing customers to go through
closed loop opt-in will save my reputation. The same roque that makes up
libel in r.g.c. can make up accusations to spamcop. It's already happened!
Super duper closed loop opt-in with nuclear power won't stop that, and it
won't prevent a rogue from adding email addresses that generate at least one
unsolicited email about joining the list.

So far it looks like "closed loop opt-in" is fixing a problem we don't
have.

I have the same situation with my car. Neither the seat belt or the
bumpers have ever been needed. They fix a problem (crashing) that I
don't have. What idiot installed those seatbelts? If I ever get into
a crash, *then* I will have seatbelts installed!

An interesting analogy. To take it further, some vehicles (cabs and UPS
trucks) are exempt from using seatbelts due to the slight inconvenience.

Having great sympathy towards you because of the attack by kooks and
because I have heard good things about your product, I was really
hoping to be able to announce that Mike Leahy does not spam. Alas,
I must instead annouce that Mike Leahy doesn't care whether he spams
or doesn't spam.

I'm sure you know that I care a lot about spam, and I respect your
appreciation for "closed loop opt-in." I go further, with a dedicated
unshared secured registered mail server (not cheap), personal attention to
each reply at my email address, personal monitoring and no sharing of
addresses.

Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com