Yes, I tested month ago Bookup and I was understanding that he will
send a one week mails to my address, which I agreed, but now, he
starts sends more ads to my mail. (They are covered to look like a it
has something question to you, and not a commercial mail, like usually
spams tries to do...)

Ironically, I didnt believe people who told this before I tried this,
but now I believe. If you try this software, be aware of this spam
problem and dont give your primary e-mail address to any one,
especially people like Mike Leahy, who promise to not to spam!!!

I newer had taken part of any bookup list anyway... this ****es me
off, can you trust this guy?



From : Mike Leahy
Sent : Wednesday, April 28, 2004 11:12:59 PM
To : "JA" mail-address
Subject : Bookup registered owner?

If you own either the Professional or Express versions of Bookup 2000,
I am
missing your registration number or your serial number. Please hit
the reply
button now and email me with that number so I can register you for no
cost
updates.

Have you watched all six videos? They're at
http://url

If you haven't downloaded and installed Bookup 2000 Express yet do
that now
at...
http://url


I won't talk you into the Professional version. It's for serious
players,
coaches, authors and researchers. The $199 for the Professional CD ROM
may be
too pricey for those overseas, so I added the option of downloading it
for $129
- and that includes your choice of our brand name ebooks just as if
you paid
full price at http://url

Thanks again for reading my emails. Send me your suggestions for new
video
topics and program features.

Warmly,


Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"

Bookup Corp.
2763 Kensington Place West
Columbus, OH
800-949-5445 USA and Canada
614-263-7219 International


To change your email address or leave the Bookup list go to
http://url Thanks!

"JA" wrote in message
...
Yes, I tested month ago Bookup and I was understanding that he will
send a one week mails to my address, which I agreed, but now, he
starts sends more ads to my mail. (They are covered to look like a it
has something question to you, and not a commercial mail, like usually
spams tries to do...)

Ironically, I didnt believe people who told this before I tried this,
but now I believe. If you try this software, be aware of this spam
problem and dont give your primary e-mail address to any one,
especially people like Mike Leahy, who promise to not to spam!!!

I newer had taken part of any bookup list anyway...

But you just said you did, in your first paragraph.

Thanks for including an edited version of my email. It was sent only to
users of Bookup 2000 Express and it announced the newer, more powerful free
version of that program, especially if you had the old Lite version.

I promised to send occasional emails about updates. You got one email a
month later from what you said. There was no "spam" or "unsolicited
commercial email." Repa and Nonyz have in the past alleged that I was the
cause of actual spam, ads for viagra and such. Never happened.

You got this email from me about software you downloaded by joining a Bookup
list which you can leave at any time. You even quoted my email's "remove"
link in your post.

Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com

It's common knowledge that replying a spam message just sends back a
"it's OK, my address is active, keep it coming, baby!" signal to the
spammer... so why don't just block any address you hate (Mike Leahy's
is on my list) and forget about it?

Mike Leahy says...

You got this email from me about software you downloaded by joining a Bookup
list which you can leave at any time. You even quoted my email's "remove"
link in your post.

Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com

Let's put these allegations to bed once and for all.

Mike, do you follow the standards found on the following pages?

http://mail-abuse.org/manage.html

http://cluelessmailers.org/info/listmanagement.html

http://www.spamhaus.org/mailinglists.html



--
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire.
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like
Doc Brown can solve? My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/

"Guy Macon" http://www.guymacon.com wrote in message
...

Mike Leahy says...

You got this email from me about software you downloaded by joining a
Bookup
list which you can leave at any time. You even quoted my email's
"remove"
link in your post.

Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com

Let's put these allegations to bed once and for all.

Mike, do you follow the standards found on the following pages?

Man, that was a lot of reading!

http://mail-abuse.org/manage.html

Yes.

http://cluelessmailers.org/info/listmanagement.html

No, as ours is not a "closed loop confirmed opt-in" list.

http://www.spamhaus.org/mailinglists.html

Also no, as ours is not "closed loop opt-in."

"Closed loop opt-in" is a way for a mass emailer to protect itself from
accusations of buying or skimming another list and emailing without consent.
It forces the subscriber to reply to an additional email before getting the
emailed download insructions they ordered or requested. I have less than
15,000 online customers and I add/move no addresses. Someone must
subscribe.

I also monitor the list myself, and the list's return address is my only
email address at Bookup. If a clueless subscriber emails me to ask to be
removed, I do it by hand, usually using the "remove" link that they ignored
and emailed back to me.

Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com

(Please note that I am in no way attacking or criticizing Mike Leahy,
who according to all reports by non-insane people never spams and has
a very good product. I am asking these questions to set the record
straight in the face of waht I believe to be lies about Mike Leahy
- lies told by someone who I *know* to be a spammer of newsgroups.)

Mike Leahy says...

"Guy Macon" http://www.guymacon.com wrote...

Let's put these allegations to bed once and for all.

Mike, do you follow the standards found on the following pages?

Man, that was a lot of reading!

http://mail-abuse.org/manage.html

Yes.

http://cluelessmailers.org/info/listmanagement.html

No, as ours is not a "closed loop confirmed opt-in" list.

http://www.spamhaus.org/mailinglists.html

Also no, as ours is not "closed loop opt-in."

"Closed loop opt-in" is a way for a mass emailer to protect itself from
accusations of buying or skimming another list and emailing without consent.
It forces the subscriber to reply to an additional email before getting the
emailed download insructions they ordered or requested. I have less than
15,000 online customers and I add/move no addresses. Someone must
subscribe.

I also monitor the list myself, and the list's return address is my only
email address at Bookup. If a clueless subscriber emails me to ask to be
removed, I do it by hand, usually using the "remove" link that they ignored
and emailed back to me.

Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com

So what happens if someone subscribes me to your list and I never
in any fashion send you an opt-out message? (Keep in mind that
he probably signed me up for hundreds of such lists.) Do I keep
getting emails that I never asked for?

If the answer is that I have to opt out or keep getting emails that
I never signed up for, then the following argument applies:

http://www.euro.cauce.org/en/optinvsoptout.html says:

"Individual" opt-out schemes, where the recipient is
expected to answer with a "remove" request, suffer from
problems of scale. If only 1% of the EU's 18.4 million
businesses decided to operate in this way, it would be
possible to have someone employed full-time for a whole year
doing nothing else but issuing "remove" requests at nearly
two per minute. And that's just for *one* email address.

Yearbook for 2000 included figures for the number of
businesses in various territories in 1996. There were 18.444
million businesses in the 15 countries comprising the
European Union, ranging from "No Salaried Staff" (i.e.
smaller even than "very small") to "Large". So take 1% of
that, and we get 184440 possible senders, each of whom, for
the purposes of this thought experiment, sends one message
complete with instructions for "opting out".

There were 1.243 million Small- to Medium-scale Enterprises
(SME) in the EU in 1996, and 36000 large ones. The
possibility that a medium or large scale enterprise could
include up to several tens of senders is not taken into
account, but the 9.14 million sole traders and 8.025 million
very small enterprises should not be dismissed completely as
possible senders of UBE.

Let's take a working year: 52 weeks less 4 weeks annual
leave less an additional 5 days for legal holidays gives us
47 weeks. At 35 hours per week (this is Europe, after all)
we get 47*35 = 1645 hours over a working year to deal with
these 184440 messages. That works out to 184440/1645 = just
a little over 112 messages per hour, or a bit less than two
messages per minute. Not every sender makes it easy or
convenient to "opt-out": some require using a different
reply address, others require a visit to a Web site, and so
on, which means that some time must be allowed to parse the
message for the relevant information. This calculation does
not take excessive downloading time into account, but
assumes that the messages appear in time to be dealt with.

One "power delete-key user" boasted of being able to
determine whether a message was wanted or not in 6 seconds.
This happy individual could therefore deal with slightly
over 5 times as many messages, or so it would seem, 987000
in total. But do we need nearly a million senders? Well, not
exactly: it would depend on the number of messages each one
sent in the course of this hypothetical year. Even this
6-second cycle delete key operator would barely find enough
time in a whole working year if only 82250 advertisers
(about 0.45% of all the businesses in the EU in 1996 or 6.6%
of the SMEs) each sent one message per month.

The email medium would have effectively been rendered
useless for most people long before these kinds of numbers
have been reached. Just where the threshold of pain is will
vary according to factors like the number of addresses an
individual has and how much time the same individual will
want to devote to email correspondence and administration,
not to mention how much money is to be spent on maintaining
the connections necessary to receive or handle incoming
messages.


--
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire.
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like
Doc Brown can solve? My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/

Mike Leahy wrote:
"Guy Macon" http://www.guymacon.com wrote in message
...

Mike Leahy says...


You got this email from me about software you downloaded by joining a

Bookup

list which you can leave at any time. You even quoted my email's

"remove"

link in your post.

Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com

Let's put these allegations to bed once and for all.

Mike, do you follow the standards found on the following pages?


Man, that was a lot of reading!


http://mail-abuse.org/manage.html


Yes.


http://cluelessmailers.org/info/listmanagement.html


No, as ours is not a "closed loop confirmed opt-in" list.


http://www.spamhaus.org/mailinglists.html


Also no, as ours is not "closed loop opt-in."

"Closed loop opt-in" is a way for a mass emailer to protect itself from
accusations of buying or skimming another list and emailing without consent.
It forces the subscriber to reply to an additional email before getting the
emailed download insructions they ordered or requested. I have less than
15,000 online customers and I add/move no addresses. Someone must
subscribe.

I also monitor the list myself, and the list's return address is my only
email address at Bookup. If a clueless subscriber emails me to ask to be
removed, I do it by hand, usually using the "remove" link that they ignored
and emailed back to me.

What if I download your software and give you someone else's address?
You send them unsolicited email? The closed loop opt-in keeps this from
happening by requiring a verification that the person that subscribed is
the owner of the mail address. Otherwise you could be spamming people
who have never had anything to do with your product and they won't
"opt-out" because it is a well known mistake to do so when you recieve spam.

There are several pieces of software, free I might add, that will take
care of this for you. You should consider using one.

NR



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

"Noah Roberts" wrote in message
...
Mike Leahy wrote:
"Guy Macon" http://www.guymacon.com wrote in message
...

Mike Leahy says...


You got this email from me about software you downloaded by joining a

Bookup

list which you can leave at any time. You even quoted my email's

"remove"

link in your post.

Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com

Let's put these allegations to bed once and for all.

Mike, do you follow the standards found on the following pages?


Man, that was a lot of reading!


http://mail-abuse.org/manage.html


Yes.


http://cluelessmailers.org/info/listmanagement.html


No, as ours is not a "closed loop confirmed opt-in" list.


http://www.spamhaus.org/mailinglists.html


Also no, as ours is not "closed loop opt-in."

"Closed loop opt-in" is a way for a mass emailer to protect itself from
accusations of buying or skimming another list and emailing without
consent.
It forces the subscriber to reply to an additional email before getting
the
emailed download insructions they ordered or requested. I have less than
15,000 online customers and I add/move no addresses. Someone must
subscribe.

I also monitor the list myself, and the list's return address is my only
email address at Bookup. If a clueless subscriber emails me to ask to
be
removed, I do it by hand, usually using the "remove" link that they
ignored
and emailed back to me.

What if I download your software and give you someone else's address?
You send them unsolicited email? The closed loop opt-in keeps this from
happening by requiring a verification that the person that subscribed is

the owner of the mail address. Otherwise you could be spamming people
who have never had anything to do with your product and they won't
"opt-out" because it is a well known mistake to do so when you recieve
spam.

There are several pieces of software, free I might add, that will take
care of this for you. You should consider using one.

NR

Thanks, Guy, Noah.

Our list software does support closed loop opt-in.

Here are the two reasons I have not enabled it yet: It adds another
inconvenient step for our customers just to protect us, and I've not had a
single case of someone adding someone else's email address to our list
without permission.

Our usenet rogues have gone to great lengths to anger Bookup customers and
if they go that route then I'll enable "closed loop opt-in" at everyone's
expense. Right now, the worst that can happen is a roque enters your email
address and you start to get an emailed course on using Bookup 2000 Express
(that you did not request), and each email contains a "remove" link. You
might then assume that we're spamming, and that the remove link probably
doesn't even function. Voila, I'm smeared and the customer is annoyed.

So far it looks like "closed loop opt-in" is fixing a problem we don't have.

Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com

"Mike Leahy" wrote in message
...
So far it looks like "closed loop opt-in" is fixing a problem we don't
have.

Enabling "closed loop opt-in" won't fix the problem of a roque entering
email addresses maliciously anyway. The unwitting person(s) will still get
the confirmation email(s) from us and feel pestered by us.

The best advice is to keep your email address off of usenet or anywhere one
of these chaps could find it. Give it only to people/companies that can be
trusted.

Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com

On Wed, 19 May 2004 14:30:32 -0700, Guy Macon
http://www.guymacon.com wrote:


(Please note that I am in no way attacking or criticizing Mike Leahy,
who according to all reports by non-insane people never spams and has
a very good product. I am asking these questions to set the record
straight in the face of waht I believe to be lies about Mike Leahy
- lies told by someone who I *know* to be a spammer of newsgroups.)

Mike Leahy says...

"Guy Macon" http://www.guymacon.com wrote...

Let's put these allegations to bed once and for all.

Mike, do you follow the standards found on the following pages?

Man, that was a lot of reading!

http://mail-abuse.org/manage.html

Yes.

http://cluelessmailers.org/info/listmanagement.html

No, as ours is not a "closed loop confirmed opt-in" list.

http://www.spamhaus.org/mailinglists.html

Also no, as ours is not "closed loop opt-in."

"Closed loop opt-in" is a way for a mass emailer to protect itself from
accusations of buying or skimming another list and emailing without consent.
It forces the subscriber to reply to an additional email before getting the
emailed download insructions they ordered or requested. I have less than
15,000 online customers and I add/move no addresses. Someone must
subscribe.

I also monitor the list myself, and the list's return address is my only
email address at Bookup. If a clueless subscriber emails me to ask to be
removed, I do it by hand, usually using the "remove" link that they ignored
and emailed back to me.

Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com

So what happens if someone subscribes me to your list and I never
in any fashion send you an opt-out message? (Keep in mind that
he probably signed me up for hundreds of such lists.) Do I keep
getting emails that I never asked for?

If the answer is that I have to opt out or keep getting emails that
I never signed up for, then the following argument applies:

http://www.euro.cauce.org/en/optinvsoptout.html says:

"Individual" opt-out schemes, where the recipient is
expected to answer with a "remove" request, suffer from
problems of scale. If only 1% of the EU's 18.4 million
businesses decided to operate in this way, it would be
possible to have someone employed full-time for a whole year
doing nothing else but issuing "remove" requests at nearly
two per minute. And that's just for *one* email address.


This problem of scale only applies if there is someone who takes it as
his fulltime job to add other people'a e-mail adress to mailing lists
with "individual opt-out" schemes.

Another way to cuase the problem would be to run a program that
automatically adds hundreds or thousands of e-mail adresses to a given
list hundreds of lists. But this would has the ptential to cause
problems regardless of the opin/out policy: The person running the
program could just set the program up to add the same list of names to
each list over and over again. The result would be people flooded
with spurious opt-in messages in their e-mail inbox.

Yearbook for 2000 included figures for the number of
businesses in various territories in 1996. There were 18.444
million businesses in the 15 countries comprising the
European Union, ranging from "No Salaried Staff" (i.e.
smaller even than "very small") to "Large". So take 1% of
that, and we get 184440 possible senders, each of whom, for
the purposes of this thought experiment, sends one message
complete with instructions for "opting out".

There were 1.243 million Small- to Medium-scale Enterprises
(SME) in the EU in 1996, and 36000 large ones. The
possibility that a medium or large scale enterprise could
include up to several tens of senders is not taken into
account, but the 9.14 million sole traders and 8.025 million
very small enterprises should not be dismissed completely as
possible senders of UBE.

Let's take a working year: 52 weeks less 4 weeks annual
leave less an additional 5 days for legal holidays gives us
47 weeks. At 35 hours per week (this is Europe, after all)
we get 47*35 = 1645 hours over a working year to deal with
these 184440 messages. That works out to 184440/1645 = just
a little over 112 messages per hour, or a bit less than two
messages per minute. Not every sender makes it easy or
convenient to "opt-out": some require using a different
reply address, others require a visit to a Web site, and so
on, which means that some time must be allowed to parse the
message for the relevant information. This calculation does
not take excessive downloading time into account, but
assumes that the messages appear in time to be dealt with.

One "power delete-key user" boasted of being able to
determine whether a message was wanted or not in 6 seconds.
This happy individual could therefore deal with slightly
over 5 times as many messages, or so it would seem, 987000
in total. But do we need nearly a million senders? Well, not
exactly: it would depend on the number of messages each one
sent in the course of this hypothetical year. Even this
6-second cycle delete key operator would barely find enough
time in a whole working year if only 82250 advertisers
(about 0.45% of all the businesses in the EU in 1996 or 6.6%
of the SMEs) each sent one message per month.

The email medium would have effectively been rendered
useless for most people long before these kinds of numbers
have been reached. Just where the threshold of pain is will
vary according to factors like the number of addresses an
individual has and how much time the same individual will
want to devote to email correspondence and administration,
not to mention how much money is to be spent on maintaining
the connections necessary to receive or handle incoming
messages.


--
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire.
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like
Doc Brown can solve? My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/