Hey, I have an old version of Bookup 1.5.2 which uses Bookup 8
files. I am looking for old Bookup modules for French Defense, Kings
Gambit, and Caro Kahn. Do you know where I could buy those? Its
a bit outdated but it still works great and I have many books for it
and do not wish to uninstall it for a new copy cause I use my current
book modules every day.

I found some old pgn and bookup 8 files on www.chessopolis.com but
they are just databases with NO TEXT which I find useless. Without
explanation of theory and ideas, opening databases are pointless in my
opinion.

If I cant find any Bookup 8 files I might buy ChessBase or Chess
Assisstant but since I already own Bookup, Id like to save $300.

Thanks,,,

Gollum

"Gollum" wrote in message
... Hey, I have an old
version of Bookup 1.5.2 which uses Bookup 8
files. I am looking for old Bookup modules for French Defense, Kings
Gambit, and Caro Kahn. Do you know where I could buy those? Its
a bit outdated but it still works great and I have many books for it
and do not wish to uninstall it for a new copy cause I use my current
book modules every day.

The old versions of Bookup were written well enough that they'll probably
run forever. Still there are enough creature comforts to justify the
upgrade. You can grab the free trial of Bookup 2000 Express from our site.
It allows full editing during the trial period and it will make 2000 format
ebooks out of your older format ebooks just by opening them. It does not
affect your older ebooks or program at all. If you like the newer program,
register it for $29.

I found some old pgn and bookup 8 files on www.chessopolis.com but
they are just databases with NO TEXT which I find useless. Without
explanation of theory and ideas, opening databases are pointless in my
opinion.

Absolutely. The most powerful aspect of Bookup is the great repertoires
documented by great teachers.

If I cant find any Bookup 8 files I might buy ChessBase or Chess
Assisstant but since I already own Bookup, Id like to save $300.

Thanks,,

Gollum

I don't know of any collection of free Bookup 8 files. There are a few free
ebooks in 2000 format on our site though.

Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com

"Mike Leahy" wrote in message gy.com...
"Gollum" wrote in message
... Hey, I have an old
version of Bookup 1.5.2 which uses Bookup 8
files. I am looking for old Bookup modules for French Defense, Kings
Gambit, and Caro Kahn. Do you know where I could buy those? Its
a bit outdated but it still works great and I have many books for it
and do not wish to uninstall it for a new copy cause I use my current
book modules every day.

The old versions of Bookup were written well enough that they'll probably
run forever.

That is one hell of a bold statement to make, and one I'm sure is
untrue, for reasons totally beyond your control - even if you replace
"forever" with "forseaable future".

Microsoft have shown they are very capable of changing their Operating
Systems (DOS, and all the versions of Windoze) such that old programs
will not work. But you might say that is bad programming by the
application programming, not an operating system issue. So let's leave
that issue, although it is not totally unfounded.

More fundamentally, since your software runs on Windoze, and I belive
generates binary files, it MUST be compiled such that it generates x86
instructions for x86 based CPUs. Yet the high-end Itanium CPU from
Intel (which admittidy is not aimed at the home market), no longer
supports x86 instructions (I belive so anyway, and if its not Itanium,
Intel have certainly announced some CPUs will not support x86. But I
belive Itanium is one. Intel have realised they can get better
performance by abandoning backwards compatability. Since they have
done this on their highest spec processor, do you reasonably think
they will continue with x86 backward compatability "forever", or for
the "forseable future", on their processors aimed at the home market?
I don't.

So unless one sticks with an old operating system + hardware, it's
unlikely old versions of your program will run for more than 10 years
at the most, which is not "forever" even in a more restricted
practical sence.

People putting data into databases, might like to get it back in 10
years, or others might like to do so after their death. So be honest,
unless you

a) Use a text file, which is easiy deducable by inspection or
b) Make the format of the data public

data put into your program will sooner or later be totally unusable.

What happens if you die tommorow - will bookup be maintained?

And even making data format public on a web site is not really
sufficient. Web sites come and go. That's why at a univerity where I
work, we strongly discourage references to web sites in student
reports. Sometimes it's inevitable, when that is the only source of
information, but it would genereally not be encouraged.

Publishing the format of the binary data in properly refereed
journals, archived at national libraries, is really the only way to
ensure binary data files will be retrievable for the forseable future.
But would such a journal want to publish the format of Bookup?

PGN has stood the test of time. It is simple to read with a text
editor, and will continue to be usable for the "forseable future" on
computers. It may well not be suitable for your needs.

So ignoring PGN, you would have to use a text based format, which is
easy for someone to deduce. That might not be what you want to do, but
unless you do so, don't make such a claim.

Scid's native data files are binary, and so not readable with a text
editor. But at least the format is easy to deduce from the source
code. They are compressed with an algorithm (gzip) which is widely
known, and I expect published in a scientific journal.

The fact chessbase files are propietry is one reason I will not use
their software. Many do, but they are sitting on a time-bomb. Just
when that time bomb explodes I don't know, but it will do so.

Dr. David Kirkby.

Dr. David Kirkby m wrote:
More fundamentally, since your software runs on Windoze, and I belive
generates binary files, it MUST be compiled such that it generates x86
instructions for x86 based CPUs. Yet the high-end Itanium CPU from
Intel (which admittidy is not aimed at the home market), no longer
supports x86 instructions (I belive so anyway, and if its not Itanium,
Intel have certainly announced some CPUs will not support x86. But I
belive Itanium is one. Intel have realised they can get better
performance by abandoning backwards compatability. Since they have
done this on their highest spec processor, do you reasonably think
they will continue with x86 backward compatability "forever", or for
the "forseable future", on their processors aimed at the home market?
I don't.

Software emulation of the old instruction set is feasible. Powermacs were
emulating the old m68k instruction set in software ten years ago.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Miniature Atlas (TM): it's like a map
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ of the world but you can hold in it
your hand!

"David Richerby" wrote in message
...
Dr. David Kirkby m wrote:
More fundamentally, since your software runs on Windoze, and I belive
generates binary files, it MUST be compiled such that it generates x86
instructions for x86 based CPUs. Yet the high-end Itanium CPU from
Intel (which admittidy is not aimed at the home market), no longer
supports x86 instructions (I belive so anyway, and if its not Itanium,
Intel have certainly announced some CPUs will not support x86. But I
belive Itanium is one. Intel have realised they can get better
performance by abandoning backwards compatability. Since they have
done this on their highest spec processor, do you reasonably think
they will continue with x86 backward compatability "forever", or for
the "forseable future", on their processors aimed at the home market?
I don't.

Software emulation of the old instruction set is feasible. Powermacs were
emulating the old m68k instruction set in software ten years ago.


Dave.

I have to agree with every technical point from Dr. Kirkby. I certainly
didn't think that my words "probably run forever" were really going to be
interpreted as anyone would really care 30+ years from now.

Hardcore Mac owners are still running the Bokup version from 1984 and Apple
has done the most to create backward compatibility OS problems. I guess I
was/am just lucky. I dropped official support for our Mac version twelve
years ago.

The complete source code (including file layouts obviously) are available
for $200 to registered users of the Professional version of Bookup. I also
doubt a scientific journal really wants or needs to publish any of it. How
much is the source code to ChessBase?


Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com

David Richerby wrote in message ...
Dr. David Kirkby m wrote:
More fundamentally, since your software runs on Windoze, and I belive
generates binary files, it MUST be compiled such that it generates x86
instructions for x86 based CPUs. Yet the high-end Itanium CPU from
Intel (which admittidy is not aimed at the home market), no longer
supports x86 instructions (I belive so anyway, and if its not Itanium,
Intel have certainly announced some CPUs will not support x86. But I
belive Itanium is one. Intel have realised they can get better
performance by abandoning backwards compatability. Since they have
done this on their highest spec processor, do you reasonably think
they will continue with x86 backward compatability "forever", or for
the "forseable future", on their processors aimed at the home market?
I don't.

Software emulation of the old instruction set is feasible. Powermacs were
emulating the old m68k instruction set in software ten years ago.


Dave.
Sure, but do you think Micorosoft will do it? I doubt it, or if they
do, they won't do it for too long. From what I understand, files
backed up on NT using the backup program can't be read on the same
program under XP. We have an NT server here, which we can't update
since you can't get drivers for some hardware for the latest OS.

Microsoft have shown in numerous ways the way they virtually force
people to switch to later versions of their software. Word files for
instance can't be read on older copies of Word. Sure, new versions can
save in the old format, but generally people don't do this. So its
inconventiet when sent to a Word file to reply to someone saying
"thanks for the Word file, but I can't read it. Will you resave in
version X of word".

Apple have admittidly taken such backward compatability more
seriously. I don't know how similar the m68k and Powermacs are. If
there are only a few infrequently used instructions, the performance
hit will not be large.

That then leaves 3rd party applications on PCs to do the emulation.
That might well be feasable, but there are a lot of "ifs" there.
http://bochs.sourceforge.net/
is one such solution, but it is certanly not without its problems. And
software emulation of x86 instructions will be very slow. It's not
like running a Windoze emulator on a Linux x86 PC, using a project
such as Wine. That in itself is not without its problems, but
emulating instructions is a very different (and more complex) problem.

Dr. David Kirkby m wrote:
David Richerby wrote:
Software emulation of the old instruction set is feasible. Powermacs
were emulating the old m68k instruction set in software ten years ago.

Sure, but do you think Micorosoft will do it?

I've no idea. It all depends how much pressure Microsoft and Intel come
under from users and other software vendors.


Apple have admittidly taken such backward compatability more
seriously. I don't know how similar the m68k and Powermacs are. If
there are only a few infrequently used instructions, the performance
hit will not be large.

I'm not an expert but I believe the m68k and the PowerPC architecture to
be as different as chalk and cheese. You'd be talking complete emulation,
because the instruction sets are completely different, I think.


That then leaves 3rd party applications on PCs to do the emulation.
That might well be feasable, but there are a lot of "ifs" there.
http://bochs.sourceforge.net/
is one such solution, but it is certanly not without its problems. And
software emulation of x86 instructions will be very slow.

It depends how CPU hungry the applications are and how much faster the
next generation of hardware is. My guess is that a lot of code would run
reasonably well under an emulator -- it wouldn't be a huge problem if Word
slowed down by a factor of two, for example. On the other hand, I can
imagine the programs that people might most want to keep would be games
and they're much more sensitive to timing.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Miniature Composer (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ pupil of Beethoven but you can hold
in it your hand!

"Mike Leahy" wrote in message

I have to agree with every technical point from Dr. Kirkby.

Thank you. Much appreciated.

I certainly
didn't think that my words "probably run forever" were really going to be
interpreted as anyone would really care 30+ years from now.

Well I doubt it is as long as 30 years before Bookup will not work on
future hardware/software. But neither of us are in a position to put a
date on
it, but I rekon 10 years or less would be more accurate.

The latest high-end CPUs don't support x86 instructions, which is
certainly a BIG step towards preventing backwards compatability.

My own PhD thesis is available online

http://www.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/researc...k/phd/phd.html

which I wrote in Wordperfect for DOS, and was submitted just over 5
years ago. It was started about 9 years ago when Wordperfect for DOS
was the defato word processor, like Word is today. Could I edit that
if I wanted now? NO, not easily, if at all.

Word can of course read Wordperfect files, but whilst that might work
for a simple letters, its most unlikely to be satisfactory for a
reading a complete PhD thesis. Could I read the orignal 5.25"
Wordperfect floppy disks in my current PC? No is the answer to that
one.

Had I written the thesis using TeX

http://www.tug.org/

which uses text (ASCII) file for input, then such problems would not
exist. There are graphical front ends available commerically for TeX,
but the basic source would have been much more portable, and had a
much longer lifetime.

Many people have in their chess databases games played more than 100
years ago. So it's not unreasonable to assume they will want to use
files they wrote 30 years ago (although I suspect problems will occur
in much less than 30 years). Others in the future might like to access
data written by someone in the past.

Hardcore Mac owners are still running the Bokup version from 1984 and Apple
has done the most to create backward compatibility OS problems. I guess I
was/am just lucky. I dropped official support for our Mac version twelve
years ago.

Yes Apple have put a lot of effort into it. I somewhat doubt Microsoft
will. Microsoft's record on these things is appauling. Backups written
to tape using the Backup program in NT can't be read on the backup
program in XP !!! I leave you to drawn your own conclusions from that.

The complete source code (including file layouts obviously) are available
for $200 to registered users of the Professional version of Bookup.

Under an NDA I assume.

As a matter of interest, do you think making the file format (but not
the full source code) of Bookup public (say on your web site) would
harm you commerically? And if so how?

Sure, someone *could* make a clone of Bookup (most likely for Linux if
anywhere), but would that not help you sell more ebooks?

Personally I doubt there would be interest in doing a Bookup clone,
but if anything I suspect it would benifit you, rather than hurt you.

Someone *could* write a bookup clone, then create their own ebooks, so
you don't sell so many ebooks. But they might as well start their own
project from scratch in that case. Scid does not attempt to read
chessbase files - it has its own format.

Should I want to make a Bookup clone, to try to harm you commerically,
the easiest way would be to buy the professional version and pay you
the $200 for the source code.

I also
doubt a scientific journal really wants or needs to publish any of it.

Agreed.

But whilst I know web sites have a habbit of dissapearing, making a
file format public on your web site, and encouraging others to copy it
to their websites, would go a long way to preventing problems in the
future.

How
much is the source code to ChessBase?

I've no idea.

I think ChessBase users are sitting on a timebomb. What happens if
ChessBase go bust? What happens if chessbase stop backwards
compabilty, to force users to upgrade? What happens when ChessBase is
no longer the defato standard, but some other program (say ChessBAR)
becomes the defato standard? Would the problems I mention with
Wordperfect and Word not come about with ChessBAR and ChessBase???

Anyway, that is enough. Sorry about the long post.

But do give consideration to making the Bookup file format public. I
think anyone who spends a lot of time entering data into a propietry
format is asking for trouble.

Dr. David Kirkby.
Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com

David Richerby wrote in message ...
Dr. David Kirkby m wrote:
David Richerby wrote:
Software emulation of the old instruction set is feasible. Powermacs
were emulating the old m68k instruction set in software ten years ago.

Sure, but do you think Micorosoft will do it?

I've no idea. It all depends how much pressure Microsoft and Intel come
under from users and other software vendors.

As you might just have guessed, I'm no great fan of Microsoft. But I
think it's fair to say they don't care too much what software vendors
want. I can't think of a single software vendor who is really in a
position to dictate much to MS.

I suspect MS have a lot more control over Intel. MS will produce a new
OS, produce a new compiler, and tell software vendors to recompile
using the new compiler.

I'm not an expert but I believe the m68k and the PowerPC architecture to
be as different as chalk and cheese. You'd be talking complete emulation,
because the instruction sets are completely different, I think.

In that case, I would expect the performance hit to be large.

That then leaves 3rd party applications on PCs to do the emulation.
That might well be feasable, but there are a lot of "ifs" there.
http://bochs.sourceforge.net/
is one such solution, but it is certanly not without its problems. And
software emulation of x86 instructions will be very slow.

It depends how CPU hungry the applications are and how much faster the
next generation of hardware is. My guess is that a lot of code would run
reasonably well under an emulator -- it wouldn't be a huge problem if Word
slowed down by a factor of two, for example.

I know the term 'MIPS' is supposed to be 'Million Instructions Per
Second', but have heard it refered to 'Meaninless Instructions Per
Second' too, so I'm not saying MIPS is a great benchmark. But
according to the FAQ of the bochs Windoze emulator

http://bochs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin.../user/faq.html

the performance of the emulator is about 1.5 MIPS on a 400 MHz
Pentimum II.

According to

http://www.mlode.com/~tdurland/dcbench.html

The peformance of a 400 MHz Celeron (remember Celeron is slower than
Pentium II) is around 800 MIPS, so that puts the emulator over 500
times slower.

(I would add that I do have experience of software emulation of
floating pint insturctions, and whilst software emulation is very
slow, it is nowhere near 500x slower). So why bochs is quite as slow I
can't work out, but do suspect that building a decent Windoze emulator
is no trivual task, which might explain why it is so slow.

imagine the programs that people might most want to keep would be games
and they're much more sensitive to timing.

Yes, I think you can reasonably assume people will not want to runs
games under software emulation. I've not used bookup, but I doubt it
is very CPU intensive (no doubt Mike will say).

But I still maintain that

1) Curernt versions of Bookup are unlikely to be useable in much over
10 years, and certainly not the 'vitually forever'. I realise Mike did
not mean that to be interpreted too literally.

2) With the best will in the world, Mike is not in a position to
guarantee continued development. His company could be bought and the
buyer decide later not to continue with the product. He could die. etc
etc.

3) Spending a lot of time entering data in a program, whose data
format is not public, is not a great idea.

I know a number of places which will not use backup software such as
Veritas, but stick to tar/dump, since you have far more chance of
being able to recover data at a later date, it is in a native, and
well documented format.

My views are of course not universally held - plenty of people use
ChessBase, and bookup, Word etc.

Dr. David Kirkby.

"Dr. David Kirkby" m wrote
in message om...
"Mike Leahy" wrote in message

I have to agree with every technical point from Dr. Kirkby.

Thank you. Much appreciated.
[snip]
Hardcore Mac owners are still running the Bokup version from 1984 and
Apple
has done the most to create backward compatibility OS problems. I guess
I
was/am just lucky. I dropped official support for our Mac version
twelve
years ago.

Yes Apple have put a lot of effort into it. I somewhat doubt Microsoft
will. Microsoft's record on these things is appauling. Backups written
to tape using the Backup program in NT can't be read on the backup
program in XP !!! I leave you to drawn your own conclusions from that.

I got that.

You may have missed my assertion that Apple has created backward
compatibility *problems* like no other OS I've ever worked with. And 20+
years later Bookup is still running well in emulation.

Still I agree that no matter how well Bookup is written, each version will
enjoy a half-life of around eight to ten years before something spoils the
user's experience.

The complete source code (including file layouts obviously) are
available
for $200 to registered users of the Professional version of Bookup.

Under an NDA I assume.

Not at all. It's understood that the actual code is protected by copyright
but if the source code sparks new ideas for a better program then by all
means write it and sell it.

As a matter of interest, do you think making the file format (but not
the full source code) of Bookup public (say on your web site) would
harm you commerically? And if so how?

Sure, someone *could* make a clone of Bookup (most likely for Linux if
anywhere), but would that not help you sell more ebooks?

Having a clone of Bookup on any platform couldn't hurt. It could possibly
help.

Only last year did the high speed database engine at the heart of Bookup
become open source and free. The layout is not fixed (variable length
records and all) and to be honest I don't know what the layout is binarily.
I've always trusted the database engine that much. (BTree Filer 5.x for the
curious, used to be supported by Turbopower)

So the short answer is that I'd publish the layout if I knew it, and the
complete source to the engine is already open source. The $200 fee for
Bookup's source includes source level support for anyone who wants to tinker
with it.

Should I want to make a Bookup clone, to try to harm you commerically,
the easiest way would be to buy the professional version and pay you
the $200 for the source code.

You are correct.

But do give consideration to making the Bookup file format public. I
think anyone who spends a lot of time entering data into a propietry
format is asking for trouble.

I work with dozens of proprietary formats each day without a worry. Bookup
can export an ebook to PGN format but it would lose color formatting,
Informant symbols, engine assessments, backsolve totals, etc. that are not
in the PGN text specs.

Yeah, I could die. There are enough people with source that someone
would keep it running I assume.

Dr. David Kirkby.

Mike Leahy
"The Database Man!"
www.bookup.com