Here is a game between Help Bot & Normal Level. See what mistake
Normal did that it lost the match in 60 moves. Since both are very
strong players and they both thought 1-2 min per move so it would need
very long calculations and analysis to find weakness in the game.

If you think there was any mistake by Normal Level [Strategical
Mistake] or [Tactical Mistake] then let me know it.

Game Played between help bot and normal at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
normal: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...169&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(normal) -- (help bot)

1. e2-e4{2} c7-c5{10}
2. Ng1-f3{0} d7-d6{4}
3. d2-d4{0} c5-d4{4}
4. Nf3-d4{0} Ng8-f6{6}
5. Nb1-c3{132} e7-e6{24}
6. Bc1-e3{108} Bf8-e7{26}
7. h2-h3{112} Ke8-g8{16}
8. g2-g4{124} d6-d5{40}
9. e4-e5{140} Nf6-d7{12}
10. f2-f4{138} Be7-h4{18}
11. Ke1-d2{122} Bh4-e7{92}
12. Kd2-e1{124} Nb8-c6{30}
13. g4-g5{104} Be7-b4{50}
14. Bf1-g2{208} Nd7-b6{120}
15. Bg2-f3{114} Nb6-c4{26}
16. Be3-c1{104} Qd8-a5{58}
17. Qd1-d3{82} Bc8-d7{134}
18. Nd4-b3{92} Qa5-b6{70}
19. Ke1-f1{80} Ra8-c8{144}
20. Nc3-d5{88} e6-d5{62}
21. Bf3-d5{162} Nc6-b8{56}
22. Bd5-e4{164} Nc4-e5{78}
23. Qd3-e3{120} Qb6-e3{78}
24. Bc1-e3{94} Bd7-c6{34}
25. Be4-c6{110} Ne5-c6{12}
26. a2-a3{104} Bb4-e7{50}
27. Ra1-e1{160} Rf8-e8{54}
28. h3-h4{124} b7-b6{150}
29. h4-h5{126} Be7-f8{44}
30. h5-h6{136} g7-g6{22}
31. f4-f5{106} Nc6-e7{128}
32. f5-g6{90} f7-g6{8}
33. Nb3-d4{90} Ne7-d5{32}
34. Be3-f2{112} Re8-e1{42}
35. Kf1-e1{84} Nb8-c6{48}
36. Rh1-h4{98} Bf8-e7{40}
37. Rh4-e4{82} Be7-g5{190}
38. Nd4-c6{80} Rc8-c6{14}
39. Re4-e5{116} Bg5-h6{18}
40. Re5-d5{106} Rc6-c2{22}
41. Bf2-d4{108} Rc2-c7{206}
42. b2-b4{98} Bh6-g7{56}
43. Rd5-d8{122} Kg8-f7{8}
44. Ke1-f1{128} Kf7-e7{60}
45. Rd8-d5{110} Ke7-e6{22}
46. Rd5-d8{104} Bg7-d4{46}
47. Rd8-d4{96} g6-g5{34}
48. b4-b5{168} h7-h5{26}
49. a3-a4{120} Rc7-f7{56}
50. Kf1-g2{138} Rf7-f4{22}
51. Rd4-f4{126} g5-f4{6}
52. Kg2-h2{150} Ke6-e5{30}
53. Kh2-h1{104} Ke5-e4{12}
54. Kh1-h2{80} f4-f3{38}
55. Kh2-g3{132} Ke4-e3{10}
56. a4-a5{114} f3-f2{24}
57. a5-b6{82} Qf2-f1{Q}{24}
58. b6-b7{118} Qf1-f3{52}
59. Kg3-h4{118}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
normal: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...169&game=Chess

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at:: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On Jan 27, 7:24*am, Sanny wrote:
Here is a game between Help Bot & Normal Level. See what mistake
Normal did that it lost the match in 60 moves. Since both are very
strong players and they both thought 1-2 min per move so it would need
very long calculations and analysis to find weakness in the game.

ROFL. Casual human inspection shows the first of several mistakes by
"Normal" level.

If you think there was any mistake by Normal Level [Strategical
Mistake] or [Tactical Mistake] then let me know it.

How many do you want listed? It started off OK, but gradually lost the
initiative by making ineffective slow tempo moves whilst Helpbot
played with a purpose. It didn't do anything really silly until 14.
Bf2

This is sufficiently far off the plot that had the program chosen a
move at entirely random from the 38 possibilities it would have a
better than evens chance of improving things over the move chosen. My
instinct is that 14. Bd3 would be very playable (although Shredder
preferred 14. Kg2). It took an overnight run and 12h at 20 ply before
it agreed with my instincts and ranked Bd3 as the strongest move (Kg2
was still pretty good but I don't like it).

14. Bf1-g2{208} Nd7-b6{120}

This is really not a great move for white. It is only 100cp down from
the best moves, but you cannot afford such inaccuracies. It isn't
even in the top half of the move rankings.

17. Qd1-d3{82} Bc8-d7{134}

Helpbot missed a trick here. 17. .... Nxd4 18. Qxd4 Bd7 is nasty for
white.

20. Nc3-d5{88} e6-d5{62}

Why in heavens name is it swapping a N for a P ? The attack here is at
best illusory, at worst non-existent.
Kg2 is probably needed at this stage.

21. Bf3-d5{162} Nc6-b8{56}

I reckon 21. ... Ne7 might be more effective.

22. Bd5-e4{164} Nc4-e5{78}

But Normal is determined to keep making its position worse. Kg2 still
needed.

37. Rh4-e4{82} Be7-g5{190}

Plenty good enough to win, but Nxd4 is faster.

41. Bf2-d4{108} Rc2-c7{206}

Bd4 is another rubbish move. Only 41. Rd8+ stands any chance at all
now.

50. Kf1-g2{138} Rf7-f4{22}
51. Rd4-f4{126} g5-f4{6}

It has definitely got a death wish!

Keeping the rooks on the board and hoping that your opponent makes a
mistake out of boredom letting you snatch a pawn is the only chance
remaining here. Once the rooks are off the two passed pawns protected
by their king are invincible.

Regards,
Martin Brown

This is sufficiently far off the plot that had the program chosen a
move at entirely random from the 38 possibilities it would have a
better than evens chance of improving things over the move chosen. *My
instinct is that 14. Bd3 would be very playable (although Shredder
preferred 14. Kg2). It took an overnight run and 12h at 20 ply before
it agreed with my instincts and ranked Bd3 as the strongest move (Kg2
was still pretty good but I don't like it).


At 14th move King is at e1 how can it make its king to Kg2??? Should
it jump like a knight? Or you are saying Kf2?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On Jan 28, 11:14*am, Sanny wrote:
This is sufficiently far off the plot that had the program chosen a
move at entirely random from the 38 possibilities it would have a
better than evens chance of improving things over the move chosen. *My
instinct is that 14. Bd3 would be very playable (although Shredder
preferred 14. Kg2). It took an overnight run and 12h at 20 ply before
it agreed with my instincts and ranked Bd3 as the strongest move (Kg2
was still pretty good but I don't like it).

At 14th move King is at e1 how can it make its king to Kg2??? Should
it *jump like a knight? Or you are saying Kf2?

Obviously should be 14. Kf2

Regards,
Martin Brown

At 14th move King is at e1 how can it make its king to Kg2??? Should
it *jump like a knight? Or you are saying Kf2?

Obviously should be 14. Kf2


I think king should never go up in Middle game as there is risk of
being killed. So it should be in the first lane always so that it is
far away from opponent pieces.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On Jan 28, 5:16 am, Martin Brown
wrote:

17. Qd1-d3{82} Bc8-d7{134}

Helpbot missed a trick here. 17. .... Nxd4 18. Qxd4 Bd7 is nasty for
white.

Since both K & Q are movable targets, I did
not play for the "nasty" pin; maybe I'm not
mean and nasty enough? ;D


20. Nc3-d5{88} e6-d5{62}

Why in heavens name is it swapping a N for a P ?

*Two* pawns; White gets two pawns for
his Knight (which, as I keep telling Sanny,
is not nearly enough). As everyone knows,
a Knight is worth around 3.1415927 pawns
-- about the same as a piece of apple pi... .


The attack here is at
best illusory, at worst non-existent.
Kg2 is probably needed at this stage.

21. Bf3-d5{162} Nc6-b8{56}

I reckon 21. ... Ne7 might be more effective.

I seem to have a visual problem; I feared
the combination: 1. Bxf7+, replies, 2. Qxd7; but
of course, my reply 1 ...Rxf7 would guard the
loose piece on d7. The passive, defensive move
....Nb7 was intended to shore up my loose Bishop.



22. Bd5-e4{164} Nc4-e5{78}

But Normal is determined to keep making its position worse. Kg2 still
needed.

37. Rh4-e4{82} Be7-g5{190}

Plenty good enough to win, but Nxd4 is faster.

41. Bf2-d4{108} Rc2-c7{206}

Bd4 is another rubbish move. Only 41. Rd8+ stands any chance at all
now.

50. Kf1-g2{138} Rf7-f4{22}
51. Rd4-f4{126} g5-f4{6}

It has definitely got a death wish!

Keeping the rooks on the board and hoping that your opponent makes a
mistake out of boredom letting you snatch a pawn is the only chance
remaining here. Once the rooks are off the two passed pawns protected
by their king are invincible.

No computer "thinks" that way; even strong
programs will object to hanging a pawn for
nothing here, and unless its algorithm allows
for full-pawn sacrifices just to keep a pair of
Rooks on the board, would do this sort of
thing. GetClub does not see far enough
ahead to comprehend that the pawns will
Queen by force. Even a few moves later when
it began chucking pawns, it was only because
this gained material or else delayed the pawn
promotion, *not* as part of a strategy to enable
the possibility of a stalemate, as a clever
human player might have attempted.

Note also that near the end, the program
moved its King into the corner; it seems to be
programmed to believe this is the ideal spot
for King safety (even where the opponent has
no attackers left). In simple endgames, the
program is severely handicapped when
compared to a typical human player.

But note well how the program *did see*
the piece fork in the endgame-- the one I
decided to allow, since I was convinced the
connected passed pawns would be decisive
in themselves. It saw that potential fork
well in advance of a typical human player,
and that included me. :D

In wide-open games against humans who
prefer to play it fast and loose (think Sam
Sloan here), the program might well give a
better account of itself than in a semi-closed
game like this one, and so many others of
mine which are heavily weighted toward
strategy.


-- help bot

* No computer "thinks" that way; even strong
programs will object to hanging a pawn for
nothing here, and unless its algorithm allows
for full-pawn sacrifices just to keep a pair of
Rooks on the board, would do this sort of
thing. *GetClubdoes not see far enough
ahead to comprehend that the pawns will
Queen by force. *Even a few moves later when
it began chucking pawns, it was only because
this gained material or else delayed the pawn
promotion, *not* as part of a strategy to enable
the possibility of a stalemate, as a clever
human player might have attempted.

Today GetClub Chess was further Improved. Now it will be very
difficult to win Beginner Level than it used to be earlier . Earlier
Jester used to win in 50-60 Moves. But today it took 67 Moves to win.

Today after improving the GetClub Game, I tried with Jester here is
the Game. Beginner Vs Jester.

Game Played between Jester and beginner at GetClub.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester:: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...232&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(Jester -- (beginner)

1. e2-e4{6} e7-e5{0}
2. Ng1-f3{6} Nb8-c6{0}
3. Bf1-b5{6} a7-a6{0}
4. Bb5-c6{6} d7-c6{8}
5. Nb1-c3{8} f7-f6{6}
6. Ke1-g1{10} Bf8-c5{6}
7. d2-d3{12} Ng8-e7{10}
8. Nc3-a4{12} Bc5-a7{10}
9. Bc1-d2{10} Ke8-g8{6}
10. Bd2-b4{10} b7-b5{8}
11. Bb4-e7{10} Qd8-e7{8}
12. Na4-c3{10} b5-b4{12}
13. Nc3-a4{10} Qe7-d6{6}
14. Nf3-d2{12} Bc8-e6{16}
15. Qd1-h5{12} Be6-f7{6}
16. Qh5-h4{12} h7-h5{6}
17. a2-a3{10} b4-a3{16}
18. Ra1-a3{10} Rf8-b8{10}
19. Ra3-a1{14} Ba7-d4{10}
20. Rf1-b1{20} g7-g5{12}
21. Qh4-h3{46} Bd4-a7{6}
22. Na4-c3{12} g5-g4{6}
23. Qh3-h4{12} Ba7-d4{8}
24. Nc3-d1{10} Rb8-b6{6}
25. Nd2-c4{26} Bf7-c4{6}
26. d3-c4{12} f6-f5{6}
27. Qh4-g5{18} Kg8-f8{10}
28. Qg5-f5{16} Kf8-g8{8}
29. Qf5-h5{10} g4-g3{8}
30. h2-g3{10} Bd4-c5{10}
31. Ra1-a5{14} Ra8-f8{6}
32. Rb1-a1{14} Rb6-b8{6}
33. Ra5-a6{10} Qd6-f6{8}
34. Qh5-g4{10} Kg8-h8{6}
35. Qg4-h4{8} Kh8-g8{10}
36. Qh4-f6{10} Rf8-f6{8}
37. Ra6-a5{10} Bc5-d6{6}
38. b2-b3{10} Rb8-f8{8}
39. f2-f3{12} Kg8-h8{10}
40. Nd1-e3{16} c6-c5{8}
41. Ra5-a7{12} Bd6-e7{6}
42. Ra7-c7{22} Be7-d6{6}
43. Rc7-c6{10} Bd6-e7{6}
44. Rc6-f6{10} Rf8-f6{8}
45. Ne3-d5{12} Rf6-e6{6}
46. Nd5-e7{10} Re6-e7{6}
47. Ra1-a8{10} Kh8-g7{8}
48. Ra8-c8{10} Re7-a7{6}
49. Rc8-c5{16} Ra7-e7{6}
50. Kg1-f2{10} Kg7-h8{6}
51. Kf2-e3{10} Re7-d7{8}
52. Rc5-e5{10} Rd7-h7{8}
53. Ke3-d2{12} Rh7-h2{6}
54. Re5-g5{10} Rh2-g2{6}
55. Kd2-d3{10} Kh8-h7{6}
56. c4-c5{10} Rg2-h2{6}
57. c5-c6{10} Rh2-h6{6}
58. Rg5-c5{10} Rh6-g6{8}
59. c6-c7{10} Rg6-g8{12}
60. Qc7-c8{Q}{12} Rg8-c8{8}
61. Rc5-c8{10} Kh7-g7{12}
62. b3-b4{10} Kg7-h7{6}
63. b4-b5{8} Kh7-g6{8}
64. b5-b6{10} Kg6-f7{6}
65. b6-b7{10} Kf7-g7{6}
66. Qb7-b8{Q}{8} Kg7-f7{6}
67. Qb8-a7{10} Kf7-e7{6}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...232&game=Chess

Is the game now playing OK, Or are you finding any mistake in GetClub
Beginner Level Moves? Please indicate which moves are wrong So that I
may correct them.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On Jan 29, 1:36*am, help bot wrote:
On Jan 28, 5:16 am, Martin Brown
wrote:

20. Nc3-d5{88} e6-d5{62}

Why in heavens name is it swapping a N for a P ?

* *Two* pawns; White gets two pawns for
his Knight (which, as I keep telling Sanny,
is not nearly enough). *As everyone knows,
a Knight is worth around 3.1415927 pawns
-- about the same as a piece of apple pi... .

2 pawns and an attack or some structural damage to the kings defences
might have been OK, but otherwise 3 pawns for pure material. Sannys
program seems to like 2P for 1N swaps far too much....

A lot of real games tend to hinge on a swap that runs N,B for N,B,P
when the exchange is done in the right order.

The attack here is at
best illusory, at worst non-existent.
Kg2 is probably needed at this stage.

50. Kf1-g2{138} Rf7-f4{22}
51. Rd4-f4{126} g5-f4{6}

It has definitely got a death wish!

Keeping the rooks on the board and hoping that your opponent makes a
mistake out of boredom letting you snatch a pawn is the only chance
remaining here. Once the rooks are off the two passed pawns protected
by their king are invincible.

* No computer "thinks" that way; even strong
programs will object to hanging a pawn for
nothing here, and unless its algorithm allows
for full-pawn sacrifices just to keep a pair of
Rooks on the board, would do this sort of
thing. * GetClub does not see far enough

You can tweak the evaluation to favour equal swaps when ahead and try
to avoid them when behind. I agree that giving up a pawn to keep rooks
on would tax most chess engines (though not the current crop).

* Note also that near the end, the program
moved its King into the corner; it seems to be
programmed to believe this is the ideal spot
for King safety (even where the opponent has
no attackers left). *In simple endgames, the
program is severely handicapped when
compared to a typical human player.

The lack of basic endgame heuristics would make it easliy vulnerable
in the endgame.

Regards,
Martin Brown

On Jan 29, 9:42*am, Sanny wrote:

Today GetClub Chess was further Improved. Now it will be very
difficult to win Beginner Level than it used to be earlier . Earlier
Jester used to win in 50-60 Moves. But today it took 67 Moves to win.

I wouldn't base an assement on a single game, but I do have to say
that apart from a few dodgy moves GetClub acquitted itslef pretty well
here. It was even breifly ahead early on. One position in particular
highlights a possible tactical bug that needs to be found and fixed.
The program could be a lot stronger with a bit more debugging.

So far so good....

13. Nc3-a4{10} Qe7-d6{6}

13. .... Bg4 is better

16. Qh5-h4{12} h7-h5{6}

Damaging your own kings refuge for no advantage is not good.
Better is the natural 16. .... Be6

24. Nc3-d1{10} Rb8-b6{6}

This is the pivotal losing move - setting up a Q,R fork for whites N.
And it is worth investigating exactly why the engine failed to see
that the continuation would be so bad for it. Superficially it looks
like an equal exchange at 2 ply plus swapoff to quiessence and it only
shows the problems at deeper levels of lookahead.

24. ... Qd8 would hold the situation and several other moves are
plausible.

r5k1/2p2b2/prpq1p2/4p2p/3bP1pQ/3P4/1PPN1PPP/RR1N2K1 w - - 0 25

In this position the engine should quickly see that the N has to be
captured else NxR or NxQ. Only the bishop can make the capture so BxN
is forced and dxB follows automatically (and in any quiessence
search). The catch here is that whatever black does now he cannot
defend the h5 pawn which the bishop previously protected from whites
Q . Now it would have been much better never to have advanced h5 in
the first place but once it was there it effectively tied down the B
and made the N fork pretty well lethal.

25. Nd2-c4{26} Bf7-c4{6}

The inevitbale swapoff N for B.

26. d3-c4{12} f6-f5{6}

Compounds the problem for black - white now has a choice of 2 pawns
offered to it en prise.
27. Qh4-g5{18} Kg8-f8{10}

But he goes for the check instead. Plenty of time to eat pawns.
27. .... Kf7 would be quite a lot better here, but the K seems
terrified of moving away from the edge of the board.

41. Ra5-a7{12} Bd6-e7{6}

Why gift the e pawn unnecessarily? Kg7 was about the best of a bad
bunch.
There are only 4 worse moves and they all involve sacrificing a rook
for no compensation.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Good Analysis.

Here is another game for analysis.

Game Played between Stinky Garlnoot and beginner at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stinky Garlnoot: (Black)
beginner: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...250&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(beginner) -- (Stinky Garlnoot)

1. Nb1-c3{8} d7-d5{6}
2. d2-d4{8} Ng8-f6{6}
3. Bc1-g5{6} g7-g6{6}
4. a2-a3{6} Bf8-g7{10}
5. e2-e3{10} Ke8-g8{16}
6. Bf1-e2{16} Nb8-d7{46}
7. Be2-f3{6} c7-c6{70}
8. Ng1-h3{8} Qd8-b6{168}
9. Nc3-a4{6} Qb6-a6{324}
10. Na4-c3{14} e7-e5{32}
11. Bf3-e2{10} Qa6-b6{20}
12. Ke1-g1{6} Nf6-e4{100}
13. Nc3-e4{6} d5-e4{4}
14. d4-d5{6} Nd7-f6{68}
15. g2-g4{6} c6-d5{68}
16. b2-b3{12} d5-d4{70}
17. Kg1-h1{6} h7-h5{328}
18. e3-d4{8} e5-d4{34}
19. f2-f3{6} d4-d3{252}
20. c2-d3{6} e4-f3{12}
21. Be2-f3{6} h5-g4{16}
22. Nh3-f4{16} g4-f3{34}
23. Qd1-f3{8} Qb6-b3{78}
24. Bg5-h4{6} Bc8-f5{142}
25. Ra1-b1{6} Qb3-a3{40}
26. Rb1-b7{6} Ra8-b8{102}
27. Nf4-g6{6} Bf5-g6{110}
28. Rb7-b8{8} Rf8-b8{118}
29. Bh4-f6{6} Qa3-d3{44}
30. Kh1-g1{8} Qd3-f3{102}
31. Rf1-f3{6} Bg7-f6{34}
32. Rf3-f6{10} a7-a5{6}
33. Rf6-f4{10} Rb8-b4{32}
34. Rf4-f2{6} a5-a4{22}
35. h2-h3{6} a4-a3{18}
36. Rf2-d2{6} Rb4-b1{12}
37. Kg1-h2{12} Rb1-b2{4}
38. Rd2-g2{8} Rb2-g2{46}
39. Kh2-g2{10} a3-a2{2}
40. h3-h4{6} Qa2-a1{Q}{18}
41. Kg2-f2{10} Qa1-c3{6}
42. h4-h5{6} Bg6-h5{10}
43. Kf2-g2{10}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stinky Garlnoot: (Black)
beginner: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...250&game=Chess

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html