Nice Analysis !!!

Amazingly this position has previously occurred in 4 serious
matches arising out of odd Sicilian patterns. The moves are
transposed and all of them were hopelessly lost at this
point. It must have arisen in

So you have saved Game till 14 th Move? Have you played the same game
earlier?

Is there any move wrongly played by Advance Level?
Was the game won because of any weakness in GetClub engine?

Yes. It doesn't have sufficient selective look ahead down partially
forced lines (situations where one move is significantly better than
all the others). To be fair even the top engines struggled to see that
Qc7 doesn't really work at sensible match play time allocations and it

So GetClub Lost because of 7... Qc7 Move.

How much point loss is shown for this move compared to 7.... Nd5. What
would have been the score if Nd5 is played and what is the score given
for 7... Qc7 by Shedder?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Sanny wrote:

Nice Analysis !!!

It will be a nice analysis if someone else checks it and agrees.

Amazingly this position has previously occurred in 4 serious
matches arising out of odd Sicilian patterns. The moves are
transposed and all of them were hopelessly lost at this
point. It must have arisen in

So you have saved Game till 14 th Move? Have you played the same game
earlier?

Apparently yes although I haven't looked for it yet. I expect some
variant of poisoned pawn Sicilian ended up going that way. It looked
vaguely familiar.

Is there any move wrongly played by Advance Level?
Was the game won because of any weakness in GetClub engine?
Yes. It doesn't have sufficient selective look ahead down partially
forced lines (situations where one move is significantly better than
all the others). To be fair even the top engines struggled to see that
Qc7 doesn't really work at sensible match play time allocations and it

So GetClub Lost because of 7... Qc7 Move.

I think so yes. However, I ran Shredder10 without human guidance
overnight to see if it could find the right line for itself. This is
definitely one of those situations where an opening book is essential
for the computer to cope with deep set piece opening traps in sharp
lines. It cannot see deep enough under normal time controls.

How much point loss is shown for this move compared to 7.... Nd5. What
would have been the score if Nd5 is played and what is the score given
for 7... Qc7 by Shedder?

I ran it overnight after restarting the program and going to the
position after whites move 7.bxB all score in centipawns

Initially I ran infinite analysis with 6 best lines displayed.
At ply 12 (30s) it had
Nd5 Qc7 Qa5 O-O Ng8 Nc6 d5
107 157 303 341 345 356 356
(79) (142)
This morning I broadened the lines displayed to 18 to show the score of
the ill fated Qc7 (which vanished from the top 6 overnight). It is
interesting to note how from the same initial ocnditions (program
restarted with a clean cache) the scores at the same ply are different.
The additional exploration of the bad moves low down the list polluting
the cache alter the score for the best moves by much more than I had
expected!

It hadn't found the critical line when I gave up last night after 22
minutes at ply 17 it slightly preferred Qc7 152 (143) to Nd5 159 (154)
rated equal to within the noise (figures in brackets from second run).
This morning it was at ply 21 after 9 hours (scores here for ply 20)

Nd5 Ng8 Ne4 O-O Nc6 a6
162 317 327 355 384 384

Qc7 was nowhere to be seen and a quick probe suggests it scores 420 or
so with this depth of search. I don't know when Shredder finally grocked
this position, probably at 2-4hours. But it is clear that it could never
do so under tournament conditions whereas a human might. Especially one
familiar with the motifs of this type of opening trap.

The position is an interesting test of engine strength. Anyone care to
post the results of infinite analysis with their favourite engine on
this position:

rnbqk2r/pp1p1ppp/4pn2/4P3/3N4/2P5/P1P2PPP/R1BQKB1R b KQkq - 0 7

Shredder must be going down some pretty wierd swapoff continuation lines
in selective extensions 16/53 is about the most extreme ply/maxdepth
ratios I have ever seen. 16/32 would be much more typical.

Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Qc7 was nowhere to be seen and a quick probe suggests it scores 420 or
so with this depth of search. I don't know when Shredder finally grocked
this position, probably at 2-4hours. But it is clear that it could never
do so under tournament conditions whereas a human might. Especially one
familiar with the motifs of this type of opening trap.

So Q-c7 was correct move for 2-4 hours So I think there is nothing
wrong with Advance Level as Advance level made that move in just 22
minutes.

So nothing can be done for such moves. There may be 1000s of such
traps in many opening and it is not possible to teach each trap.

I think Zebediah uses some computer to play against GetClub or he is
some Grand Master, Who Knows.

I am happy there was no big mistake in GetClubs game play. I was
worried as it lost in just 23 moves. But as Shredder took 9 hours to
get the correct move that means it was because of the Opening Trap.

Help Bot has also started a game against Advance Level Lets see what
happens in that game. I am very confident that Advance Level will win
him as he do not take any help from any computer. He just uses his
mind to play Chess at GetClub.com

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Sanny wrote:
Qc7 was nowhere to be seen and a quick probe suggests it scores 420 or
so with this depth of search. I don't know when Shredder finally grocked
this position, probably at 2-4hours. But it is clear that it could never
do so under tournament conditions whereas a human might. Especially one
familiar with the motifs of this type of opening trap.

So Q-c7 was correct move for 2-4 hours So I think there is nothing
wrong with Advance Level as Advance level made that move in just 22
minutes.

Not quite. Most of the time Nd5 was always Shredders top move (and it
should be for Getclub too). Leaving a Knight in danger is not good. Very
briefly on the ply 17 widest search Qc7 was the best move but only by
less than the noise in the evaluation function.

And for the record with the top 18 moves displayed it took about 90
minutes and an 18 ply search to resolve that Qc7 was a losing move, and
about 30 minutes with 6 moves displayed and 7 minutes with 2 displayed.
So nothing can be done for such moves. There may be 1000s of such
traps in many opening and it is not possible to teach each trap.

Although this is true in general the type of trap avoidance required
here might be worth putting into an opening book.

I think Zebediah uses some computer to play against GetClub or he is
some Grand Master, Who Knows.

Perhaps Zebediah would care to post. It looks a bit to me like a GM
toying with your program like a cat plays with a mouse. The sequence
played although in the opening book is extremely anti-computer.

I am happy there was no big mistake in GetClubs game play. I was
worried as it lost in just 23 moves. But as Shredder took 9 hours to
get the correct move that means it was because of the Opening Trap.

It was taken into territory where humans can beat machines quickly. That
looks to me like specialist anti-computer play by a human (perhaps aided
by a computer to avoid blunders).

Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Help Bot also win Advance Level, Do you see any thing wrong with
GetClubs Game.

Game Played between help bot and advance at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
advance: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...606&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(help bot) -- (advance)

1. a2-a3{30} e7-e5{0}
2. c2-c4{4} Ng8-f6{1608}
3. g2-g3{12} Bf8-c5{1308}
4. e2-e3{28} Ke8-g8{1724}
5. Bf1-g2{18} c7-c6{3132}
6. Ng1-e2{198} Bc5-b6{1838}
7. Ke1-g1{96} d7-d5{1428}
8. c4-d5{14} c6-d5{1760}
9. d2-d4{64} e5-e4{1626}
10. Nb1-c3{48} Bb6-c7{1814}
11. f2-f3{164} e4-f3{1386}
12. Rf1-f3{24} Bc8-g4{1614}
13. Rf3-f2{20} Nb8-c6{1622}
14. Qd1-d3{38} Rf8-e8{2154}
15. Ne2-f4{272} Bc7-f4{1616}
16. Rf2-f4{120} g7-g5{2762}
17. Rf4-f2{352} Bg4-e6{1794}
18. Bc1-d2{28} Ra8-b8{2568}
19. Ra1-f1{544} Nf6-g4{1512}
20. Rf2-f7{662} Be6-f7{1840}
21. Rf1-f7{12} Kg8-f7{2394}
22. Qd3-h7{6} Kf7-f8{2086}
23. Qh7-h8{88} Kf8-f7{1372}
24. Qh8-h5{30} Kf7-g8{1516}
25. Qh5-g4{136} Re8-e7{2928}
26. Qg4-g5{70} Re7-g7{2082}
27. Bg2-d5{60} Kg8-h8{1572}
28. Qg5-h5{100} Rg7-h7{2390}
29. Qh5-f3{36} Qd8-d6{2898}
30. Nc3-e2{132} Rb8-f8{1588}
31. Ne2-f4{54} Rf8-e8{3182}
32. Bd2-c3{248} Qd6-h6{1588}
33. h2-h4{18} Rh7-g7{1328}
34. Kg1-f2{242} Nc6-b8{2044}
35. e3-e4{222} Nb8-d7{1860}
36. Bd5-b7{204} Nd7-f6{1612}
37. e4-e5{64} Nf6-g4{2238}
38. Kf2-g2{180} Re8-f8{2460}
39. Bb7-e4{620} Qh6-f4{1702}
40. Qf3-f4{62} Rf8-f4{1366}
41. g3-f4{8} Ng4-e5{1932}
42. Kg2-f2{578} Ne5-g4{1658}
43. Kf2-f3{26} Ng4-h2{2378}
44. Kf3-e2{28} Kh8-g8{2452}
45. d4-d5{202} Rg7-f7{2550}
46. Bc3-e5{112} a7-a6{2328}
47. d5-d6{66} Kg8-f8{2330}
48. h4-h5{290} Nh2-g4{1370}
49. b2-b4{84} Ng4-h6{1410}
50. Ke2-d3{148} Nh6-g4{1608}
51. Kd3-d4{114} Ng4-h6{1350}
52. Kd4-c5{144} Rf7-d7{2218}
53. Kc5-c6{122} Rd7-d8{1340}
54. Be4-g6{222} Rd8-c8{1416}
55. Kc6-b7{54} Rc8-c1{1638}
56. Kb7-a6{48} Rc1-c8{2022}
57. Ka6-b7{68} Rc8-c1{1628}
58. b4-b5{30} Nh6-f7{5658}
59. Bg6-f7{238} Kf8-f7{2794}
60. a3-a4{108} Rc1-g1{5992}
61. a4-a5{34} Kf7-f8{1870}
62. a5-a6{28} Rg1-b1{1970}
63. b5-b6{10} Rb1-b4{1286}
64. h5-h
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
advance: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...606&game=Chess

Which were the wrong moves that took Advance Level to destruction.

I do not think Help Bot was taking help of any Computer still he wins.
Which means there is something wrong in GetClubs game play.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Zebediah too managed to win the game.

GetClub went into a big trap and lost its knight.

Zebediah pin Rook & Pawn with his Bishop So Advance has no choice but
to loose the game.

Game Played between zebediah and advance at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
zebediah: (Black)
advance: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...615&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(advance) -- (zebediah)

1. d2-d4{0} Ng8-f6{12}
2. c2-c4{0} g7-g6{4}
3. Nb1-c3{0} c7-c5{106}
4. d4-c5{2296} Bf8-g7{96}
5. e2-e4{1974} Qd8-a5{4372}
6. Bf1-d3{1834} Qa5-c5{78}
7. Bc1-e3{1340} Qc5-a5{14}
8. Ng1-f3{1416} Ke8-g8{894}
9. Ke1-g1{2674} d7-d6{22}
10. Nc3-d5{1468} Nf6-d5{2508}
11. c4-d5{2204} Bc8-g4{2550}
12. Qd1-b3{1652} Nb8-d7{52}
13. Nf3-g5{2496} Nd7-e5{4902}
14. f2-f3{1606} Ne5-d3{244}
15. Qb3-d3{1870} Bg4-d7{1126}
16. Rf1-d1{2058} Ra8-c8{1038}
17. g2-g3{1742} h7-h6{242}
18. b2-b4{1854} Qa5-a4{52}
19. Ra1-c1{1758} Qa4-a2{32}
20. Be3-f4{1738} h6-g5{1344}
21. Bf4-g5{1284} Bd7-h3{64}
22. Bg5-d2{2312} f7-f5{300}
23. Rc1-c8{2810} Rf8-c8{6}
24. Qd3-e2{2178} Bg7-d4{80}
25. Kg1-h1{1360} f5-e4{54}
26. f3-e4{1732} Rc8-f8{236}
27. Qe2-d3{2506} Bd4-b6{864}
28. e4-e5{1766} Bh3-f5{366}
29. Qd3-f3{2100} Bf5-g4{530}
30. Qf3-g2{2026} Rf8-f2{74}
31. Qg2-f2{1344} Bb6-f2{4540}
32. Kh1-g2{1872}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
zebediah: (Black)
advance: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...615&game=Chess

What were the major wrong moves by GetClub?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Sanny wrote:
Help Bot also win Advance Level, Do you see any thing wrong with
GetClubs Game.

Plenty. Including some things that are completely inexplicable.

White -- Black
(help bot) -- (advance)

1. a2-a3{30} e7-e5{0}
2. c2-c4{4} Ng8-f6{1608}
3. g2-g3{12} Bf8-c5{1308}

Already out of book (although like an English opening).

4. e2-e3{28} Ke8-g8{1724}
5. Bf1-g2{18} c7-c6{3132}

c6 blocks a good knight square without doing much good.
At this point I think Getclub misses a trick.
White is slightly overstretched and I think 5. ... d5 is possible with
advantage. Then 6. d4 exd4 7. exd4 Be7 etc. d6, Nc6, or Bb6 would also
be OK.
10. Nb1-c3{48} Bb6-c7{1814}

More deckchair shuffling. Bg4 would give black some decent chances here.
Two minor pieces remain undeveloped (tweaking eval to encourage moving
them might help). It is basically OK so far.

15. Ne2-f4{272} Bc7-f4{1616}

BxN doen't help black. Ne7 is better

16. Rf2-f4{120} g7-g5{2762}

Very very brave (or foolhardy) the king needs a safe haven!

18. Bc1-d2{28} Ra8-b8{2568}

In heavens name why??? This move isn't even in the top 10!
Ng4 to harrass whites rook is by far the most obvious move.
Otherwise white will double them and punch a big hole into what is an
already fractured kingside.

19. Ra1-f1{544} Nf6-g4{1512}

Too late.
20. Rf2-f7{662} Be6-f7{1840}

I admire helpbots bravery. I am not sure I would risk this sac against a
machine. Forced sequence of moves follows.
24. Qh8-h5{30} Kf7-g8{1516}

I think 24. .... Kg7 would be wiser.

25. Qh5-g4{136} Re8-e7{2928}

Words fail me. I cannot understand what Getclub thinks it is playing at
here. Rf8 or Qe7 are the least bad continuations. This just leaves the
king hopelessly exposed to the enemy queen after another pawn falls.

30. Nc3-e2{132} Rb8-f8{1588}

30. ... Qh6 would get some counterplay.
Rf8 just helps white put his knight onto f4. It is all downhill now.

34. Kg1-f2{242} Nc6-b8{2044}

I think 34. BxN bxB 35. d5 pinning rook against king is faster.

Which were the wrong moves that took Advance Level to destruction.

I do not think Help Bot was taking help of any Computer still he wins.
Which means there is something wrong in GetClubs game play.

It means helpbot is stronger than the program. He also has the patience
of a saint if those Getclub timings are in seconds 30-40 mins per move.

Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Apr 23, 4:28*am, Sanny wrote:

I do not think Help Bot was taking help of any Computer still he wins.
Which means there is something wrong in GetClubs game play.

You've only now realized this??

BTW, Sanny, please stop saying "So-and-so *_wins_* the Advanced (or
whatever) level." That would mean he takes posssession of your
program, that he now owns it, as in "he won a prize." Correct phrasing
is that he *_beats_* or *_defeats_* your program, or he *_wins
against_* it.

I do not think Help Bot was taking help of any Computer still he wins.
Which means there is something wrong in GetClubs game play.

* You've only now realized this??

I think the 20th Move 20. Rxf7 was the move that killed the game. He
thought 20 ply a very difficult task for any human.

20. Rf2-f7{662} Be6-f7{1840}

I admire helpbots bravery. I am not sure I would risk this sac
against a machine. Forced sequence of moves follows.

Really that sacrifice of Two Rook for a Bishop & Knight is very
puzzuling.

Let Help Bot answer why he made that descision was he able to see what
will happen after 20 ply?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Sanny wrote:
I do not think Help Bot was taking help of any Computer still he wins.
Which means there is something wrong in GetClubs game play.
You've only now realized this??

I think the 20th Move 20. Rxf7 was the move that killed the game. He
thought 20 ply a very difficult task for any human.

20. Rf2-f7{662} Be6-f7{1840}

I admire helpbots bravery. I am not sure I would risk this sac
against a machine. Forced sequence of moves follows.

Really that sacrifice of Two Rook for a Bishop & Knight is very
puzzuling.

It isn't just about material. Smashing your kingside castled position
into oblivion with an active queen is ample compensation here, but it
requires very steady nerves and accurate play.

Let Help Bot answer why he made that descision was he able to see what
will happen after 20 ply?

A significant proportion of the moves are forced. He could see further
than your program and that seems to be the way both helpbot and zebediah
are able to crucify it. They have a good feel for where the event
horizon of the Getclub lookahead is and construct situations where they
can see the right path and the program cannot.

You need to sort out the quiescence search logic and/or add singular
extensions to allow the program to see into forced and semi forced lines
more reliably.

Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **