Mark Houlsby wrote (to Jud McCranie):
Jud McCranie wrote (to Nick):
Maybe he's the "exception that proves the rule".

For the record, Jud McCranie did *not* acknowledge the
existence of *any exception at all* when he wrote:

"And *anyone* (my note: *no exceptions*) with that innate
brain wiring will start playing the game much earlier--
in their teens at the latest."
--Jud McCranie (19 June 2005)

Jud McCranie now prefers to snip his earlier statement.

However, at
http://www.msoworld.com/mindzi=ADne/...abuonhabu.html

he is quotes as saying "My name is Yoshiharu Habu.
I was born in Tokorozawa, Saitama (near Tokyo),
September 27, 1970. I became a professional Shogi
player at the age of 15 ... "

Needless to say, it is hard to be a professional player
at 15 if you don't start playing until you're 20.

Jud McCranie has misrepresented what he has written earlier,
which he now prefers to snip.

Again, here's what Jud McCranie wrote:

"And *anyone* (my note: *no exceptions*) with that innate
brain wiring will start playing *the game* (my note: 'the
game'--singular--*clearly* refers to chess, *not* to shogi.)
will start playing the game much earlier--*in their teens
at the latest*."
--Jud McCranie (19 June 2005)

Does Jud McCranie have any evidence that Yoshiharu Habu began
to play chess, *not shogi*, before he was 20 years old?

Good god you're an illiterate ****wit, McCranie.

As far as I can tell, Jud McCranie prefers to misrepresent
what he has written earlier in his attempt(s) to cover up
his error(s).

Habu became a professional SHOGI player at age 15.
He didn't START to play CHESS until he was 20.

*At least* 20 years old, as far as I can tell,
which disputes Jud McCranie's assertion of
"in their teens at the latest".

Yoshiharu Habu was born in 1970. As far as I know,
he played in his first chess tournament in 2001
(when he would have been 30+ years old).

It seems quite implausible to me that Yoshiharu Habu
would have begun to play chess *before* he was 20
years old--in 1990 at the latest--and then waited
until 2001 before entering his first chess tournament.

My conjecture is that Yoshiharu Habu began to play
chess not too long before he entered his first chess
tournament at the age of 30+ years.

His FIDE rating is 2323 and he's an FM.

Would anyone like to argue that Yoshiharu Habu's
allegedly deficient 'innate brain wiring' would have
made it impossible for him to become a GM in chess,
even *if* he had begun playing chess as a child?

You need to LEARN TO READ before doing ANYTHING ELSE.

That's some general advice.

--Nick

This post corrects a typing error in a quotation.

Nick wrote:
Mark Houlsby wrote (to Jud McCranie):
Jud McCranie wrote (to Nick):
Maybe he's the "exception that proves the rule".

For the record, Jud McCranie did *not* acknowledge the
existence of *any exception at all* when he wrote:

"And *anyone* (my note: *no exceptions*) with that innate
brain wiring will start playing the game much earlier--
in their teens at the latest."
--Jud McCranie (19 June 2005)

Jud McCranie now prefers to snip his earlier statement.

However, at
http://www.msoworld.com/mindzi=ADne/...abuonhabu.html

he is quotes as saying "My name is Yoshiharu Habu.
I was born in Tokorozawa, Saitama (near Tokyo),
September 27, 1970. I became a professional Shogi
player at the age of 15 ... "

Needless to say, it is hard to be a professional player
at 15 if you don't start playing until you're 20.

Jud McCranie has misrepresented what he has written earlier,
which he now prefers to snip.

Again, here's what Jud McCranie wrote:

"And *anyone* (my note: *no exceptions*) with that innate
brain wiring will start playing *the game* (my note: 'the
game'--singular--*clearly* refers to chess, *not* to shogi.)
will start playing the game much earlier--*in their teens
at the latest*."
--Jud McCranie (19 June 2005)

I regret that I mistyped my quotation of Jud McCranie,
though his meaning was *not* misrepresented.
The parenthetical comments are mine, not his.

"And *anyone* (my note: *no exceptions*) with that innate
brain wiring will start playing *the game* (my note: 'the
game'--singular--*clearly* refers to chess, *not* to shogi)
much earlier--*in their teens at the latest*."
--Jud McCranie (19 June 2005)

--Nick

Does Jud McCranie have any evidence that Yoshiharu Habu began
to play chess, *not shogi*, before he was 20 years old?

Good god you're an illiterate ****wit, McCranie.

As far as I can tell, Jud McCranie prefers to misrepresent
what he has written earlier in his attempt(s) to cover up
his error(s).

Habu became a professional SHOGI player at age 15.
He didn't START to play CHESS until he was 20.

*At least* 20 years old, as far as I can tell,
which disputes Jud McCranie's assertion of
"in their teens at the latest".

Yoshiharu Habu was born in 1970. As far as I know,
he played in his first chess tournament in 2001
(when he would have been 30+ years old).

It seems quite implausible to me that Yoshiharu Habu
would have begun to play chess *before* he was 20
years old--in 1990 at the latest--and then waited
until 2001 before entering his first chess tournament.

My conjecture is that Yoshiharu Habu began to play
chess not too long before he entered his first chess
tournament at the age of 30+ years.

His FIDE rating is 2323 and he's an FM.

Would anyone like to argue that Yoshiharu Habu's
allegedly deficient 'innate brain wiring' would have
made it impossible for him to become a GM in chess,
even *if* he had begun playing chess as a child?

You need to LEARN TO READ before doing ANYTHING ELSE.
=20
That's some general advice.
=20
--Nick

Mr. Bourbaki:

It is true that Habu is a very interesting subject for a nature vs.
nurture (or talent vs. work) analysis of chess strength. Habu is
widely recognized as one of the most talented shogi players of all
time, if not the most talented. And shogi is sufficiently similar to
chess that one would expect a significant amount of his natural talent
to "cross over" into chess. His chess performances conform with this
expectation. To my knowledge he has only played in a few chess
tournaments (I have heard of four or maybe five, he may have played in
a few others as well) but he is already an FM. A very strong case for
the influence of natural talent on development?

Actually, the matter is not quite so clear. The ChessBase article on
(and interview of) Habu indicates that he taught himself chess sometime
around 1992, and has taken a "keen interest" in the game since 1995.
(See http://www.shogi.net/chessbase-habu.html). I would also note that
he has played for at least several years on ICC (possibly much longer,
I simply can't tell from his stats) on an anonymous account, although I
don't know if his ICC play preceded his OTB play or not. His ICC stats
indicate that he has played around 900 blitz games (he seems to favor
slower blitz time controls) and over 200 standard games. So although
Habu may not have played a lot of OTB chess, he has been interested in
chess over a fairly extended period and has a significant if not
substantial amount of experience with online play.

I am not arguing against your implication that if Habu had taken chess
seriously enough at a young enough age he would have become a GM. Even
players of world championship-caliber talent play tournament chess for
years and years before reaching Habu's current strength. So I think it
is safe enough to posit Habu's GM potential, given his talent for shogi
and the fact that he has demonstrated a strong talent for chess as
well. But your supposition that he started to play chess not long
before he entered his first OTB tournament is simply incorrect, and to
some extent obscures your point.

- Geof Strayer

wrote:
It is true that Habu is a very interesting subject for a
nature vs. nurture (or talent vs. work) analysis of chess strength.
Habu is widely recognized as one of the most talented shogi players
of all time, if not the most talented. And shogi is sufficiently
similar to chess that one would expect a significant amount of his
natural talent to "cross over" into chess. His chess performances
conform with this expectation. To my knowledge he has only played
in a few chess tournaments (I have heard of four or maybe five, he
may have played in a few others as well) but he is already an FM.
A very strong case for the influence of natural talent on development?

Actually, the matter is not quite so clear. The ChessBase article
on (and interview of) Habu indicates that he taught himself chess
sometime around 1992, and has taken a "keen interest" in the game
since 1995.

Then *Yoshiharu Habu has confirmed* that he began to play chess
*after he was a teenager*, which confirms that what I wrote was
correct in disputing Jud McCranie's original assertion.

(See http://www.shogi.net/chessbase-habu.html). I would also note
that he has played for at least several years on ICC (possibly much
longer, I simply can't tell from his stats) on an anonymous account,
although I don't know if his ICC play preceded his OTB play or not.
His ICC stats indicate that he has played around 900 blitz games
(he seems to favor slower blitz time controls) and over 200 standard
games. So although Habu may not have played a lot of OTB chess,
he has been interested in chess over a fairly extended period and
has a significant if not substantial amount of experience with
online play.

I had *not* been aware of Yoshiharu Habu's account on ICC.
Again, I note that all of his chess experience has taken place
*after* Habu was at least 20 years old (note to Jud McCranie).

I am not arguing against your implication that if Habu had taken chess
seriously enough at a young enough age he would have become a GM.

I did *not* assert that Yoshiharu Habu *necessarily* would have
become a GM in chess, only that he evidently had that potential.

Even players of world championship-caliber talent play tournament
chess for years and years before reaching Habu's current strength.
So I think it is safe enough to posit Habu's GM potential, given his
talent for shogi and the fact that he has demonstrated a strong
talent for chess as well. But your supposition

I wrote that it was 'my conjecture' (a guess), that's all.

that he started to play chess not long before he entered his
first OTB tournament is simply incorrect,

Thanks to Geof Strayer for the additional facts.

and to some extent obscures your point.

Not my point with regard to what Jud McCranie wrote.

--Nick

On 20 Jun 2005 16:47:18 -0700, "Nick"
wrote:

For the record, Jud McCranie did *not* acknowledge the
existence of *any exception at all* when he wrote:

The guy grew up in Japan, so he encountered Japanese chess (shogi)
before Western Chess. He was a professional shogi player at age 15
and started the school for professional shogi players at age 12.
Clearly he was using the same brainpower for shogi as for regular
chess, and at an early age.

I'll change my statement to add "or a related board game" if that will
make you happy.

---
Replace you know what by j to email

On 20 Jun 2005 17:45:13 -0700, wrote:


Habu is
widely recognized as one of the most talented shogi players of all
time, if not the most talented. And shogi is sufficiently similar to
chess that one would expect a significant amount of his natural talent
to "cross over" into chess.

Good point, I agree.

---
Replace you know what by j to email

Jud McCranie wrote:
"Nick" wrote:

The context was snipped by Jud McCranie.

For the record, Jud McCranie did *not* acknowledge the
existence of *any exception at all* when he wrote:

Jud McCranie prefers now to snip what he wrote.

The guy grew up in Japan, so he encountered
Japanese chess (shogi) before Western Chess.

Does Jud McCranie believe that I did not already know that?

He was a professional shogi player at age 15 and started
the school for professional shogi players at age 12.
Clearly he was using the same brainpower for shogi as
for regular chess,

Perhaps Jud McCranie should consider the ethnocentric
connotations of his term, 'regular chess'.

So would Jud McCranie refer to shogi or xiangqi as
'deviant chess'? :-)

and at an early age.

As I recall, GM Xie Jun (China) began to play xiangqi
before she began to play chess.

I'll change my statement to add "or a related board game"

Apparently, *now* Jud McCranie has conceded that
his statement referred *only* to chess.

if that will make you happy.

I would feel better about Jud McCranie's writing if he were to
practise less snipping out-of-context and misrepresentation.

--Nick

"Sam Sloan" wrote in message
...
On 20 Jun 2005 07:47:21 -0700, "Bruce Leverett"
wrote:

Think of attaining chess mastery like getting a college degree or
advanced degree. Do you have the time, strength, cash, and patience
for that kind of endeavor?

On the other hand, if you'd like to get better at chess than you are
now, you certainly can, and you ought to have fun doing it. Time to
hit the books. But if you're already 1400, don't waste your time on
"chess for beginners". Study the games of the masters.

Bruce

I am told by a person who is a rated chess master and who also has a
Ph.D. degree in Math that the amount of knowledge and effort to get a
Ph.D. degree is about the same as the amount it takes to get you up to
1500 in chess.

I was surprised at this but them he said to count all the people who
have Ph..D. degrees in math and compare them to the number who have
1500 ratings in chess. You will find that more have a Ph.D. degree in
math.

Also, count the length of time it takes. In 3-5 years a person can get
a Ph.D. drgree in math. It takes much longer to reach 1500 in chess.

Also, everyone who tries eventually gets a Ph.D. degree in Math. Most
never make it to 1500 in chess.

So, you need to set your sites lower. Studying all those books will
not make you a grandmaster. You should try to become an 1800 player,
which is a more realistic goal.

Sam Sloan

Excellent advice and puts it all in perspective.

Regards

No, it's not. Sammy's full of ****, as usual.

Regards

Bruce Leverett wrote:

BTW Sam, how long did it take you to get to 1500? I thought it didn't
take you nearly 3-5 years. Plus, you were just a kid at the time.

Bruce

I started playing chess when I was 7 and when I was 11 I was rated 1475
by the USCF.

Therefore, it took me four years to make 1475, which is about what I
said.

Sam Sloan