I had a thought recently that it would be nice to know which GM's have the
most miniatures against other Master to GM strength players.

Had anyone seen any books or websites that may be devoted to this type of
info?


Thanks in advance,
Matt

On Apr 11, 5:40 am, "Matt" wrote:
I had a thought recently that it would be nice to know which GM's have the
most miniatures against other Master to GM strength players.

One player noted for quick wins against the great was Jacques Mieses
(1865-1954), one of the 27 original GMs honored by FIDE in 1950. At
various times he beat Chigorin in 15 moves, Bogolyubov in 15, Gunsberg
in 18, Pillsbury in 22, Teichmann in 20, Rubinstein in 24, Schlechter
in 24, Tartakower in 25, and (at the age of 65!) Lilienthal in 16.
Here is one:

Mieses-Chigorin, Ostend 1906: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.Qg4!?
Qf6? 5.Nd5! Qxf2+ 6.Kd1 Kf8 7.Nh3 Qd4 8.d3 d6 9.Qh4 Bxh3 10.Qxh3 Na5
11.Rf1! Nxc4 12.Qd7! f6 13.Nxf6! Qf2 (if 13...Nxf6 14.Rxf6! gxf6
15.Bh6+ Kg8 16.Qg7#) 14.Rxf2 Bxf2 15.Nh5 1-0

Exactly who has the most such short wins, I can't say for sure.
Noted for _losing_ an unusual number of miniatures was the Dutch GM
Jan Hein Donner (1927-1988).

Had anyone seen any books or websites that may be devoted to this type of
info?

You might look into "The 1000 Best Short Games of Chess" by Irving
Chernev (Simon & Schuster, 1955). Easily available from online used-
book sellers. Checking its index, the names I see most often are
generally what one would expect: Alekhine, Anderssen, Capablanca,
Marshall, Mieses, Morphy, Nimzovitch, Soultanbeieff, Spielmann,
Steinitz, and Tarrasch. However, offhand I don't know what the caliber
of their opposition was in those games. Probably many were amateurs in
simuls.

On Apr 11, 5:40 am, "Matt" wrote:
I had a thought recently that it would be nice to know which GM's have the
most miniatures against other Master to GM strength players.

Had anyone seen any books or websites that may be devoted to this type of
info?

If you include victories against masters, and if you define
"GMs" to include top players who preceded this title, it
comes down to playing activity and style. A comparison
of *percentage* of minis might put Paul Morphy at or near
the top, while a simple tally might place frequent simul-
givers well ahead. OTOH, if you wish to be very strict and
exclude non-GMs and victories against mere masters, it
boils down to something closer to overwhelming strength,
in combination with activity and still the matter of an
aggressive playing style factors in.

My best guess is that Fritz comes out on top, though
99% of the GMs and masters will never mention their
embarrassingly quick losses, which by and large,
happened in private. ;D

-- help bot

Thank-you kindly for the game and the info.

I hadn't really looked at Mieses before, but his play looks very
interesting. Its really amazing how some chess players can just keep going
strong - really strong.

Found a collection of his games that I am now looking thru.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=21823

It would be cool to see a comparison of various sets of minis from GM's to
compare the styles and methods and to see who was able to produce the most
minis. They always seem to captivate me.

I'll have to check out that Chernev book - it sounds like a good one.

Thanks again,
Matt

"help bot" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 11, 5:40 am, "Matt" wrote:
I had a thought recently that it would be nice to know which GM's have
the
most miniatures against other Master to GM strength players.

Had anyone seen any books or websites that may be devoted to this type
of
info?

If you include victories against masters, and if you define
"GMs" to include top players who preceded this title, it
comes down to playing activity and style. A comparison
of *percentage* of minis might put Paul Morphy at or near
the top, while a simple tally might place frequent simul-
givers well ahead. OTOH, if you wish to be very strict and
exclude non-GMs and victories against mere masters, it
boils down to something closer to overwhelming strength,
in combination with activity and still the matter of an
aggressive playing style factors in.


I'll have to dig up my Morphy book - I expect that even though he was quite
strong his competition back then was a bit of a lesser calibur which would
allow such wins. But then again, maybe I can still learn from the games. Its
not like I am playing anyone that far up the food chain. : ) I really wish
it had the new notation - I have to readjust to old-skool notation since
I've been spoiled for so long.

My best guess is that Fritz comes out on top, though
99% of the GMs and masters will never mention their
embarrassingly quick losses, which by and large,
happened in private. ;D

-- help bot


Would be interesting if them GM's could just anonymously post their
miniature Fritz games for us mere mortals to see.

Thanks a lot, bot,
Matt

On Apr 11, 5:40 am, "Matt" wrote:
I had a thought recently that it would be nice to know which GM's have the
most miniatures against other Master to GM strength players.

Had anyone seen any books or websites that may be devoted to this type of
info?

Thanks in advance,
Matt

Leonid Stein won a lot of miniatures vs quality opposition.For the
sake of this discussion you may need to specify the number of moves to
define a miniature.25 moves or less?.. ...E-JAY

EJAY wrote:
For the sake of this discussion you may need to specify the number
of moves to define a miniature.25 moves or less?

I've never seen the term `miniature' used to mean anything other than
a game of 25 or fewer moves.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Indelible Atlas (TM): it's like a map
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ of the world but it can't be erased!

"David Richerby" wrote in message
...
EJAY wrote:
For the sake of this discussion you may need to specify the number
of moves to define a miniature.25 moves or less?

I've never seen the term `miniature' used to mean anything other than
a game of 25 or fewer moves.

I've never seen it used to mean anything but games under 21 moves -- 20 or
less.
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)

..

On 12 Apr, 20:43, "Ian Burton" wrote:
"David Richerby" wrote in message

...

EJAY wrote:
For the sake of this discussion you may need to specify the number
of moves to define a miniature.25 moves or less?

I've never seen the term `miniature' used to mean anything other than
a game of 25 or fewer moves.

I've never seen it used to mean anything but games under 21 moves -- 20 or
less.
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)

.

25 or fewer is common. IIRC it was the limit used by Julius du Mont
for his classic text 200 Miniature Games (the copy I read was borrowed
from the library).

It varies.

In their biography of Najdorf, Lissowski and Mikhalchisin repeatedly
describe 26-move Najdorf wins as miniatures. FWIW decisive and = 25
moves are the criteria which built (and continue to build) my
miniatures database (not miniatures I have lost, there aren't enough
atoms in the universe to store those--rather miniatures by other
players, most of them good).

Mark Houlsby

On Apr 12, 6:04 pm, "Mark Houlsby"
wrote:
On 12 Apr, 20:43, "Ian Burton" wrote:





"David Richerby" wrote in message

...

EJAY wrote:
For the sake of this discussion you may need to specify the number
of moves to define a miniature.25 moves or less?

I've never seen the term `miniature' used to mean anything other than
a game of 25 or fewer moves.

I've never seen it used to mean anything but games under 21 moves -- 20 or
less.
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)

.

25 or fewer is common. IIRC it was the limit used by Julius du Mont
for his classic text 200 Miniature Games (the copy I read was borrowed
from the library).

It varies.

In their biography of Najdorf, Lissowski and Mikhalchisin repeatedly
describe 26-move Najdorf wins as miniatures. FWIW decisive and = 25
moves are the criteria which built (and continue to build) my
miniatures database (not miniatures I have lost, there aren't enough
atoms in the universe to store those--rather miniatures by other
players, most of them good).

Mark Houlsby- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Chernev's book adhered to a maximum of 24 moves.