In article ,
David Richerby wrote:


The fact that the Eastern European spectator spoke of an
alleged rule variant used in his country is an admission
that the normal rule found in the FIDE laws of chess exists.

Nonsense. Saying ``In my country, we do X'' means exactly that and
carries no weight about whether X is or is not done in any other
country. Consider ``In my country, we breathe air'' and ``In my
country, we eat Marmite.''

I disagree.

You would never say, "In my country, we breathe air" unless there were
other countries where people didn't, otherwise the qualifier is
unnecessary. So there's an implied understanding that the behavior
discussed is not universal.

-Ron

In article ,
Ralf Callenberg wrote:

I heard this "one can finish the move, even if the flag fell" also from
players in Germany. But to my knowledge this rule was never valid in
official German tournaments. It seems to be more some kind of an urban
legend.

It seems kind of silly, because it, ultimately, simply moves the
argument from "did I finish my move before the flag fell" to "did I
start my move before the flag fell?"

In blitz, where people are often picking up their piece before their
opponent has hit the clock (not technically by the rules, but everybody
does it) you could then never flag someone on their move.

-Ron

On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 21:52:05 -0700, wrote:

Does someone have a definite answer to this question?

Player A and Player B are playing a blitz game for sizeable (at least
- to them) stakes. Player A has the piece in his hand to make the
mating move, when Player B calls his tiime down (before he can
complete the move). Who wins?

The relevant FIDE rule is:

6.8 During the game each player, having made his move on the
chessboard, shall stop his own clock and start his opponent`s clock. A
player must always be allowed to stop his clock. His move is not
considered to have been completed until he has done so, unless the
move that was made ends the game. (See Articles 5.1, and 5.2)
The time between making the move on the chessboard and stopping his
own clock and starting his opponent`s clock is regarded as part of the
time allotted to the player.

Seems`clear enough.
The separate rules for blitz do not override the above.

www.iinet.com.au/~ray

18.06.2007 06:16, Ron:

It seems kind of silly, because it, ultimately, simply moves the
argument from "did I finish my move before the flag fell" to "did I
start my move before the flag fell?"

In blitz, where people are often picking up their piece before their
opponent has hit the clock (not technically by the rules, but everybody
does it) you could then never flag someone on their move.


No, why? If the flag is already down, you are not allowed to start your
move. This variation of the official rules prolongs the game maximum one
move.

Greetings,
Ralf

"Ron" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ralf Callenberg wrote:

I heard this "one can finish the move, even if the flag fell" also from
players in Germany. But to my knowledge this rule was never valid in
official German tournaments. It seems to be more some kind of an urban
legend.

It seems kind of silly, because it, ultimately, simply moves the
argument from "did I finish my move before the flag fell" to "did I
start my move before the flag fell?"

In blitz, where people are often picking up their piece before their
opponent has hit the clock (not technically by the rules, but everybody
does it) you could then never flag someone on their move.

-Ron

Strictly against the rules. Your opponent has not completed his mone until
the clock has been pressed. I have not noticed that everybody picks up
their pieces before the clock is pressed.

Regards

Ron wrote:
David Richerby wrote:
Nonsense. Saying ``In my country, we do X'' means exactly that and
carries no weight about whether X is or is not done in any other
country. Consider ``In my country, we breathe air'' and ``In my
country, we eat Marmite.''

You would never say, "In my country, we breathe air" unless there were
other countries where people didn't, otherwise the qualifier is
unnecessary. So there's an implied understanding that the behavior
discussed is not universal.

I'll grant that there is an implied understanding that the behaviour
discussed might not be universal. But I don't think you can
reasonably infer more than that. For example, I could reasonably say
to an American, ``In my country, X'', where X is one of the little
details that is true in the FIDE laws of chess but not in the USCF
laws. That doesn't imply that I'm using ``variant rules''.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Laptop Dictator (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ totalitarian leader that you can put
on your lap!

By the way, is there any actual reason why you added your own name and
homepage to the subject of this thread? That and your signature, that
says ``Guy Macon'' thirty-two times really does look terribly
narcissistic.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Poisonous Permanent Chainsaw (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a lethal weapon but it'll
be there for ever and kill you in
seconds!

"Terry" wrote in message
...

"Ron" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ralf Callenberg wrote:

I heard this "one can finish the move, even if the flag fell" also from
players in Germany. But to my knowledge this rule was never valid in
official German tournaments. It seems to be more some kind of an urban
legend.

It seems kind of silly, because it, ultimately, simply moves the
argument from "did I finish my move before the flag fell" to "did I
start my move before the flag fell?"

In blitz, where people are often picking up their piece before their
opponent has hit the clock (not technically by the rules, but everybody
does it) you could then never flag someone on their move.

-Ron

Strictly against the rules. Your opponent has not completed his mone until
the clock has been pressed. I have not noticed that everybody picks up
their pieces before the clock is pressed.

If you play Blitz on an e-board, like DGT's or Shahcom's [or even a
Monroi]:-

The computer knows if you move a piece before the other player has completed
their move by pressing their clock: - so it 'beeps' illegal move. Some blitz
clocks also permit you to play your move when the other player is holding
down their clock button.

---

In all these instance there seems to be no dispute to what happens or who
won in the illustrating given here.

If there is mate on the board when the clock falls, [even if the piece seems
to be released /as/ the clock falls] the mate wins the game. [again e-boards
determine which happen first].

If the player is still holding the piece when the clock falls, he loses the
game in all circumstances, even if he is holding the piece on the mating
square since he has not yet committed himself to that move.

A more likely squabble, and it has already happened in GM chess in a regular
game [Sweden], is that in a time scramble to meet the time control neither
palyer knew if they had reached 40 moves! In this case an e-board came to
the rescue because it records the number of moves made as well as the move
itself and its time increment - and they had in fact made 43 moves.

A [laugh] more contentious issue about Blitz is 'almost cheating'. In a real
time scramble endgame you move your rook from e1 to e7 and say 'CHECK'
loudly, but the other guy's King is a g8, so he 'automatically' moves it off
the bank-rank to g7, which is in fact to move it into check, and you claim a
win

Phil Innes

Regards

Ralf Callenberg wrote:

Ron:

It seems kind of silly, because it, ultimately, simply moves the
argument from "did I finish my move before the flag fell" to "did I
start my move before the flag fell?"

In blitz, where people are often picking up their piece before their
opponent has hit the clock (not technically by the rules, but everybody
does it) you could then never flag someone on their move.

No, why? If the flag is already down, you are not allowed to start your
move.

Which simply moves the argument from "you finished your move with
the flag down" to "you started your move with the flag down"

Ron is right. This alleged rule does nothing to reduce the
amount of arguing about what happened first and what happened
second.

--
Guy Macon
http://www.guymacon.com/

David Richerby wrote:

By the way, is there any actual reason why you added your own name and
homepage to the subject of this thread? That and your signature, that
says ``Guy Macon'' thirty-two times really does look terribly
narcissistic.

SHHHH! It's part of my Evil Plot To Take Over The World...

Actually, it's an experiment I am doing so as to reverse-engineer
the algorithm that Google uses to rank search results. With most
newsreaders the added text is far to the right and not seen.
Alas, at least one in use here collapses multiple spaces down to
a single space. I think I have a fix for that; I am experimenting
with replacing the spaces with Character 255.










-- G o o g l e F o o d : http://www.guymacon.com http://www.guymacon.com/
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