In article ,
"Terry" wrote:

Strictly against the rules. Your opponent has not completed his mone until
the clock has been pressed. I have not noticed that everybody picks up
their pieces before the clock is pressed.

Really?

I see it all the time. Player A makes his move, reaches for the clock.
As he's reaching for the clock, Player B starts reaching for his piece.
A lot of the time player B reaches the piece before Player A reaches the
clock.

Sometimes, with really obvious moves (like recaptures) I've seen player
B reaching for the recapturing piece before player A has finished the
capturing move.

-Ron

Guy Macon wrote:

Actually, it's an experiment I am doing so as to reverse-engineer
the algorithm that Google uses to rank search results. With most
newsreaders the added text is far to the right and not seen.
Alas, at least one in use here collapses multiple spaces down to
a single space. I think I have a fix for that; I am experimenting
with replacing the spaces with Character 255.

My server really mangled that experiment. Sorry about that.
I should have tried it in alt.test first.

Guy Macon wrote:
Guy Macon wrote:

Actually, it's an experiment I am doing so as to reverse-engineer
the algorithm that Google uses to rank search results. With most
newsreaders the added text is far to the right and not seen.
Alas, at least one in use here collapses multiple spaces down to
a single space. I think I have a fix for that; I am experimenting
with replacing the spaces with Character 255.

My server really mangled that experiment. Sorry about that.
I should have tried it in alt.test first.


Maybe you should read "The Tragedy of the Commons" first.

--
Kenneth Sloan
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

On Jun 16, 9:52 pm, wrote:
Does someone have a definite answer to this question?

Player A and Player B are playing a blitz game for sizeable (at least
- to them) stakes. Player A has the piece in his hand to make the
mating move, when Player B calls his tiime down (before he can
complete the move). Who wins? An Eastern European spectator said that
in "his country" you were always allowed to "complete" the mate. I
would say no - Player A did not "complete" his moves in the required
time. If the spectator is right, this could mean that if a player
wanted to delay a tournament for some reason, he could hold the mating
piece in the air for as long as he wanted without making a move (he
could never lose on time). (let's say he wanted to see the result of a
nearby game before proceeding to play his next opponent)

I can't find the "Eastern European" rule on the FIDE site - or any
other sets of blitz rules that I checked. Who wins? $4 rides on the
result.

I think this is a variant on the "Russian Method" of determining who
moves first (first person to grab a piece gets white).

The implication being, I think, that (some) Eastern European players
are less than ethical, and will always CLAIM that the mate happened
first, regardless of the facts. If the arbiter isn't watching, then he
or she will have to rule that it can't be determined, and award the
point to the mating player.

So the "Eastern European Rule" is essentially that if you are willing
to lie about the clock, and there is no witness to contradict you,
then you are allowed to complete the mate.

There are, unfortunately many players, who would apply this "rule"
routinely. These are the same players who disregard touch-move, or
any other rule that requres a witness to enforce.

I don't think the majority of these players are from Eastern Europe or
that the majority of players from Eastern Europe are such players, but
there are probably a few prominent Eastern Europeans who deserve that
reputation.

Kenneth Sloan wrote:

Maybe you should read "The Tragedy of the Commons" first.

One of my favorites!

BTW, your newsreader (Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 for Macintosh
according to the headers) inserts a CR/LF every 76th
character when replying to posts with long subject lines.
I did a quick look at the RFCs, and wasn't able to find a
specification for either maximum line length or wrapping
behavior in Usenet headers, so it appears that doing that
is interesting but allowed.

Phil Innes AKA Chess One wrote:

If you play Blitz on an e-board, like DGT's or Shahcom's [or even a
Monroi]:-

The computer knows if you move a piece before the other player has completed
their move by pressing their clock: - so it 'beeps' illegal move. Some blitz
clocks also permit you to play your move when the other player is holding
down their clock button.

In all these instance there seems to be no dispute to what happens or who
won

How does a Monroi know when you move a piece and when you press
the clock? An electronics chessbard & clock combo can do that,
but a Monroi? I don't believe so.

--
Guy Macon
http://www.guymacon.com/

Kenneth Sloan wrote:

Maybe you should read "The Tragedy of the Commons" first.

One of my favorites!

BTW, your newsreader (Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 for Macintosh
according to the headers) inserts a CR/LF every 76th
character when replying to posts with long subject lines.
I did a quick look at the RFCs, and wasn't able to find a
specification for either maximum line length or wrapping
behavior in Usenet headers, so it appears that doing that
is interesting but allowed.

On Jun 18, 7:55 am, "Chess One" wrote:

If you play Blitz on an e-board, like DGT's or Shahcom's [or even a
Monroi]:-

The computer knows if you move a piece before the other player has completed
their move by pressing their clock: - so it 'beeps' illegal move.


Um, no. A computer would have no way of "knowing"
who or what moved the men around, and it is probably
signaling an illegal move because your move is not a
legal one; that's because it is your opponent's turn(!), and
he moves pieces of the *opposite color*. A computerized
board does "know" whose turn it is to move, but it can't
actually follow the fast action in blitz visually or very
intelligently; everything must be "just so".


Some blitz
clocks also permit you to play your move when the other player is holding
down their clock button.


Low voltage electric shock is the answer.


If there is mate on the board when the clock falls


If it hits the floor, you better hope for thickly padded
carpeting.


, [even if the piece seems
to be released /as/ the clock falls]


Screw the piece. Who cares if it was released or
not? Check the damned clock for damage! Do you
have any idea how much a real wooden clock goes
for these days? With the U.S. dollar collapsing, a
Jerger costs more than twenty McDonald's Happy
Meals!


the mate wins the game. [again e-boards
determine which happen first].


Yeah, but these guys weren't using one of those.


If the player is still holding the piece when the clock falls, he loses the
game in all circumstances, even if he is holding the piece on the mating
square since he has not yet committed himself to that move.


Good point. Until he releases the piece, he maintains
the right to move it elsewhere, so he hasn't completed
his move and you aren't yet checkmated.


A more likely squabble, and it has already happened in GM chess in a regular
game [Sweden], is that in a time scramble to meet the time control neither
palyer knew if they had reached 40 moves! In this case an e-board came to
the rescue because it records the number of moves made as well as the move
itself and its time increment - and they had in fact made 43 moves.


If both players have stopped keeping score and nobody
knows what move they're on, you can safely act as though
the next time control has been reached. This is because
without an accurate score, neither player can claim a win
on time. Of course, both players would have to agree to
this; you never know when a GM might "catch up" his
score sheet just from memory.


A [laugh] more contentious issue about Blitz is 'almost cheating'. In a real
time scramble endgame you move your rook from e1 to e7 and say 'CHECK'
loudly, but the other guy's King is a g8, so he 'automatically' moves it off
the bank-rank to g7, which is in fact to move it into check, and you claim a
win


That's not "almost cheating"; it's just plain cheating.

First of all, it is against the rules to distract or annoy
one's opponent in any manner whatsoever, so this loud
announcement of check is a violation. Secondly, good
players (understandably, you are not aware of this) do
not ever announce check to one another! (Among those
of us who are real chess players, this is considered a
horrible insult.) I make it a point to only announce
check to those few opponents who are obviously going
to otherwise spend five minutes thinking hard and then
play a move like "p-h3".

-- help bot

On Jun 18, 12:04 pm, Guy Macon http://www.guymacon.com/ wrote:
David Richerby wrote:
By the way, is there any actual reason why you added your own name and
homepage to the subject of this thread? That and your signature, that
says ``Guy Macon'' thirty-two times really does look terribly
narcissistic.

SHHHH! It's part of my Evil Plot To Take Over The World...

Actually, it's an experiment I am doing so as to reverse-engineer
the algorithm that Google uses to rank search results. With most
newsreaders the added text is far to the right and not seen.
Alas, at least one in use here collapses multiple spaces down to
a single space. I think I have a fix for that; I am experimenting
with replacing the spaces with Character 255.


What a silly idea. If you tried to replace a single space
with a string of characters like "Character 255", you not
only would waste valuable bandwidth, but your purpose
would be defeated by the incorporation of a space within
your chosen string. You might want to consider another
alternative, like say, replacing the spaces with the key
combination "control_alt_delete". Although a few have
reported instances where receiving this leads to the
blue screen of death, most people would not be affected.

-- help bot

help bot, french fries, GetClub, help bot

help bot, help bot, help bot, Bobby Fischer, help bot

genius, help bot, chess

"help bot" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jun 18, 7:55 am, "Chess One" wrote:

Some blitz
clocks also permit you to play your move when the other player is holding
down their clock button.


Low voltage electric shock is the answer.

In Denmark the TD gets to slap a wet-fish upside the head to offenders. You
might laugh, but it works!

, [even if the piece seems
to be released /as/ the clock falls]


Screw the piece. Who cares if it was released or
not? Check the damned clock for damage! Do you
have any idea how much a real wooden clock goes
for these days? With the U.S. dollar collapsing, a
Jerger costs more than twenty McDonald's Happy
Meals!

But only weighs as much as one Fatty Meal. I have a German plastic clock
from my time in Europe - a 'Bohemia', its completely white, and so far has
lasted 30+ years. One small clock improvement would be a lanyard with one
end attached to the clock and the other end ducktape-able to the the table.
I have taken it onto several airplanes [or used to], but since it looks like
a b**b, and I is so obviously a fawna ...

the mate wins the game. [again e-boards
determine which happen first].

Yeah, but these guys weren't using one of those.

true - i should never have written the MonRoi reference, yet I think it
could be configured to do this. besides e-boards are cheaper. trouble is,
they are still too expensive for regular use, even though as you note, good
clock and non blow-over pieces ain't cheap neither

If the player is still holding the piece when the clock falls, he loses
the
game in all circumstances, even if he is holding the piece on the mating
square since he has not yet committed himself to that move.


Good point. Until he releases the piece, he maintains
the right to move it elsewhere, so he hasn't completed
his move and you aren't yet checkmated.

yeah - thats the size of it, everything else we have written, and everyone
else has written is garbage

---

If both players have stopped keeping score and nobody
knows what move they're on, you can safely act as though
the next time control has been reached. This is because
without an accurate score, neither player can claim a win
on time.

but one could lose if the TD backtracks through the game and move counts -
maybe the game would be nulled? then where are you in a weekend swiss?
someone is going to scratch your car, is where you are!

Of course, both players would have to agree to
this; you never know when a GM might "catch up" his
score sheet just from memory.

according to current rules that's illegal, unless you are down to [is it?] 3
mins? even then i think you are supposed to make a mark on score sheet to
indicate /a/ move is played - but I may be wrong about this.

basically, i don't like time-rule deviations which could wreck the game -
esp if it is even minimally rated at 30 mins. not writing your moves is then
a matter of poor time management. BUT the joke is, for top players there
will always be a crowd of people of willing to write the moves - and their
are even pictures of the old-grey beared champions playing with a
'scorekeeper' nearby

A [laugh] more contentious issue about Blitz is 'almost cheating'. In a
real
time scramble endgame you move your rook from e1 to e7 and say 'CHECK'
loudly, but the other guy's King is a g8, so he 'automatically' moves it
off
the bank-rank to g7, which is in fact to move it into check, and you
claim a
win


That's not "almost cheating"; it's just plain cheating.

laugh!

First of all, it is against the rules to distract or annoy
one's opponent in any manner whatsoever, so this loud
announcement of check is a violation. Secondly, good
players (understandably, you are not aware of this) do
not ever announce check to one another!

In correspondance chess its harder to cheat this way, besides there is no
'rush'

(Among those
of us who are real chess players, this is considered a
horrible insult.)

So it is against the rules because it is unsportspersonlike?

Phil Innes

I make it a point to only announce
check to those few opponents who are obviously going
to otherwise spend five minutes thinking hard and then
play a move like "p-h3".

-- help bot