Does someone have a definite answer to this question?

Player A and Player B are playing a blitz game for sizeable (at least
- to them) stakes. Player A has the piece in his hand to make the
mating move, when Player B calls his tiime down (before he can
complete the move). Who wins? An Eastern European spectator said that
in "his country" you were always allowed to "complete" the mate. I
would say no - Player A did not "complete" his moves in the required
time. If the spectator is right, this could mean that if a player
wanted to delay a tournament for some reason, he could hold the mating
piece in the air for as long as he wanted without making a move (he
could never lose on time). (let's say he wanted to see the result of a
nearby game before proceeding to play his next opponent)

I can't find the "Eastern European" rule on the FIDE site - or any
other sets of blitz rules that I checked. Who wins? $4 rides on the
result.

From the Arbiters Column on Chesscafe.com

One question remains: Suppose that at the same moment White mates his
opponent his flag falls. In that case what happens on the board is
relevant: the mating move finishes the game. Even when it is not clear
what happened first –mate or flag fall- mate is decisive.

top posted for posterity


wrote:
Does someone have a definite answer to this question?

Player A and Player B are playing a blitz game for sizeable (at least
- to them) stakes. Player A has the piece in his hand to make the
mating move, when Player B calls his tiime down (before he can
complete the move). Who wins? An Eastern European spectator said that
in "his country" you were always allowed to "complete" the mate. I
would say no - Player A did not "complete" his moves in the required
time. If the spectator is right, this could mean that if a player
wanted to delay a tournament for some reason, he could hold the mating
piece in the air for as long as he wanted without making a move (he
could never lose on time). (let's say he wanted to see the result of a
nearby game before proceeding to play his next opponent)

I can't find the "Eastern European" rule on the FIDE site - or any
other sets of blitz rules that I checked. Who wins? $4 rides on the
result.

"JohnnyT" wrote in message
. ..
From the Arbiters Column on Chesscafe.com

One question remains: Suppose that at the same moment White mates his
opponent his flag falls. In that case what happens on the board is
relevant: the mating move finishes the game. Even when it is not clear
what happened first –mate or flag fall- mate is decisive.

top posted for posterity


That doesnt answer the question. The piece was in the air.
He may not even have mated and I believe he should have lost on time.

Regards


wrote:
Does someone have a definite answer to this question?

Player A and Player B are playing a blitz game for sizeable (at least
- to them) stakes. Player A has the piece in his hand to make the
mating move, when Player B calls his tiime down (before he can
complete the move). Who wins? An Eastern European spectator said that
in "his country" you were always allowed to "complete" the mate. I
would say no - Player A did not "complete" his moves in the required
time. If the spectator is right, this could mean that if a player
wanted to delay a tournament for some reason, he could hold the mating
piece in the air for as long as he wanted without making a move (he
could never lose on time). (let's say he wanted to see the result of a
nearby game before proceeding to play his next opponent)

I can't find the "Eastern European" rule on the FIDE site - or any
other sets of blitz rules that I checked. Who wins? $4 rides on the
result.

Eastern European rules???

Too many possible jokes.

I lived in Germany for 5 years and was a member of a chess club there,
playing in many blitz tournaments as well as others.

In the late 1990s I was playing blitz with a friend who suggested a 7
minute time limit for each side, saying that was "German blitz rules."
He was in Germany with the military and probably picked up this
regional variation/personal pecadillo whereever he played. Telling him
I had played in many blitz tourneys in Germany and never heard of a 7
minute time control did not dissuade him from his belief. I don't
doubt it might be a variant somewhere there, or even practiced in some
places....

wrote:
Does someone have a definite answer to this question?

Player A and Player B are playing a blitz game for sizeable (at least
- to them) stakes.

Stakes are irrelevant.


Player A has the piece in his hand to make the mating move, when
Player B calls his tiime down (before he can complete the move). Who
wins?

Under FIDE rules, Player B wins on time.


An Eastern European spectator said that in "his country" you were
always allowed to "complete" the mate.

It is possible that his national federation uses a different rule set,
like the USA. (FIDE doesn't allow federations to use rule sets that
contradict FIDE's but the USCF has got away with this forever.)
Perhaps, though, he was confused about FIDE Article 5.1:

``The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent`s
king. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move
producing the checkmate position was a legal move.''

This means that, if player A had released the piece on the square that
delivers checkmate, the game is over and he has won, even if his flag
falls after that point. But if the flag falls before the move is
completed, A loses on time.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Pickled Widget (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ thingy but it's preserved in vinegar!

"Terry" wrote in message
...

"JohnnyT" wrote in message
. ..
From the Arbiters Column on Chesscafe.com

One question remains: Suppose that at the same moment White mates his
opponent his flag falls. In that case what happens on the board is
relevant: the mating move finishes the game. Even when it is not clear
what happened first -mate or flag fall- mate is decisive.

top posted for posterity


That doesnt answer the question. The piece was in the air.
He may not even have mated and I believe he should have lost on time.

Correct. If the piece is placed and released, it is mate or not - and this
ends the game. I think this is also true in regular chess. I have Jonathan
Maxwell's book on Blitz Rules, but since this is not a deviation for Blitz
purposes, regular rules apply.

Phil Innes

Regards


wrote:
Does someone have a definite answer to this question?

Player A and Player B are playing a blitz game for sizeable (at least
- to them) stakes. Player A has the piece in his hand to make the
mating move, when Player B calls his tiime down (before he can
complete the move). Who wins? An Eastern European spectator said that
in "his country" you were always allowed to "complete" the mate. I
would say no - Player A did not "complete" his moves in the required
time. If the spectator is right, this could mean that if a player
wanted to delay a tournament for some reason, he could hold the mating
piece in the air for as long as he wanted without making a move (he
could never lose on time). (let's say he wanted to see the result of a
nearby game before proceeding to play his next opponent)

I can't find the "Eastern European" rule on the FIDE site - or any
other sets of blitz rules that I checked. Who wins? $4 rides on the
result.

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit


wrote:

Does someone have a definite answer to this question?

Player A and Player B are playing a blitz game for sizeable (at least
- to them) stakes. Player A has the piece in his hand to make the
mating move, when Player B calls his time down (before he can
complete the move). Who wins? An Eastern European spectator said that
in "his country" you were always allowed to "complete" the mate. I
would say no - Player A did not "complete" his moves in the required
time. If the spectator is right, this could mean that if a player
wanted to delay a tournament for some reason, he could hold the mating
piece in the air for as long as he wanted without making a move (he
could never lose on time). (let's say he wanted to see the result of a
nearby game before proceeding to play his next opponent)

I can't find the "Eastern European" rule on the FIDE site - or any
other sets of blitz rules that I checked. Who wins? $4 rides on the
result.

*The* definitive place for finding answers to such questions is
_An Arbiter's Notebook_ by Geurt Gijssen, which may be found at
[http://www.chesscafe.com/geurt/geurt.htm]

Google has an option under "advanced search" that allows you to
search a single website. So you can find all occurrences of "Blitz":
[http://www.google.com/search?q=blitz...hesscafe.com/]
.... Or all occurrences of "Blitz" + "Mate" + "Flag" + "Fall":
[http://www.google.com/search?q=blitz...hesscafe.com/]

There is a lot there, but after a bit of digging I found this:

|
| http://www.chesscafe.com/text/Geurt58.pdf

[...}

| Suppose that at the same moment White mates his opponent
| his flag falls. In that case what happens on the board
| is relevant: the mating move finishes the game. Even
| when it is not clear what happened first –mate or flag
| fall- mate is decisive.
|

Analyze this last paragraph carefully. It implies three things:

[1] If the Mating move is completed before the flag falls,
the mating player wins. [A]

[2] If the Mating move is completed after the flag falls, the
player with the unfallen flag wins.

[3] If it cannot be determined which happened first, the mating
player wins.

My reasoning: If in both situations [1] and [2] the mating
player wins, it makes no sense to discuss what happens if it
cannot be determined whether the situation is [1] or [2].
Likewise, if in both situations [1] and [2] the player with
the unfallen flag wins, it makes no sense to discuss what
happens if it cannot be determined whether the situation
is [1] or [2].

The fact that the Eastern European spectator spoke of an
alleged rule variant used in his country is an admission
that the normal rule found in the FIDE laws of chess exists.
Basic fairness demands that if a rule variant is used that
it be announced and agreed upon before start of play.
This is not only true of chess, but of every sport and game
with only one exception -- Calvinball.



--
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On Jun 17, 2:12 pm, Guy Macon http://www.guymacon.com/ wrote:
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit





wrote:

Does someone have a definite answer to this question?

Player A and Player B are playing a blitz game for sizeable (at least
- to them) stakes. Player A has the piece in his hand to make the
mating move, when Player B calls his time down (before he can
complete the move). Who wins? An Eastern European spectator said that
in "his country" you were always allowed to "complete" the mate. I
would say no - Player A did not "complete" his moves in the required
time. If the spectator is right, this could mean that if a player
wanted to delay a tournament for some reason, he could hold the mating
piece in the air for as long as he wanted without making a move (he
could never lose on time). (let's say he wanted to see the result of a
nearby game before proceeding to play his next opponent)

I can't find the "Eastern European" rule on the FIDE site - or any
other sets of blitz rules that I checked. Who wins? $4 rides on the
result.

*The* definitive place for finding answers to such questions is
_An Arbiter's Notebook_ by Geurt Gijssen, which may be found at
[http://www.chesscafe.com/geurt/geurt.htm]

Google has an option under "advanced search" that allows you to
search a single website. So you can find all occurrences of "Blitz":
[http://www.google.com/search?q=blitz...hesscafe.com/]
... Or all occurrences of "Blitz" + "Mate" + "Flag" + "Fall":
[http://www.google.com/search?q=blitz...tp://www.c...]

There is a lot there, but after a bit of digging I found this:

|
|http://www.chesscafe.com/text/Geurt58.pdf

[...}

| Suppose that at the same moment White mates his opponent
| his flag falls. In that case what happens on the board
| is relevant: the mating move finishes the game. Even
| when it is not clear what happened first -mate or flag
| fall- mate is decisive.
|

Analyze this last paragraph carefully. It implies three things:

[1] If the Mating move is completed before the flag falls,
the mating player wins. [A]

[2] If the Mating move is completed after the flag falls, the
player with the unfallen flag wins.

[3] If it cannot be determined which happened first, the mating
player wins.

My reasoning: If in both situations [1] and [2] the mating
player wins, it makes no sense to discuss what happens if it
cannot be determined whether the situation is [1] or [2].
Likewise, if in both situations [1] and [2] the player with
the unfallen flag wins, it makes no sense to discuss what
happens if it cannot be determined whether the situation
is [1] or [2].

The fact that the Eastern European spectator spoke of an
alleged rule variant used in his country is an admission
that the normal rule found in the FIDE laws of chess exists.
Basic fairness demands that if a rule variant is used that
it be announced and agreed upon before start of play.
This is not only true of chess, but of every sport and game
with only one exception -- Calvinball.

--
Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon
Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon
Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon
Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon Guy Macon- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The "Eastern European's" point was that allowing a player to complete
a move after their flag has fallen eliminates the disputes arising
from "I mated you first" "No - I called your flag first" "No you
didn't" etc. He insists the Russian/Soviet Federation had a set of
blitz rules which allowed this (dating back to the 1980's), and that
Azerbaijan adopted these rules. I asked him to bring me a printed
copy.

Guy Macon http://www.guymacon.com/ wrote:
*The* definitive place for finding answers to such questions is
_An Arbiter's Notebook_ by Geurt Gijssen, which may be found at
[http://www.chesscafe.com/geurt/geurt.htm]

Google has an option under "advanced search" that allows you to
search a single website.

You can also use the ordinary search and add ``site:www.whatever.com''
to the search term.


The fact that the Eastern European spectator spoke of an
alleged rule variant used in his country is an admission
that the normal rule found in the FIDE laws of chess exists.

Nonsense. Saying ``In my country, we do X'' means exactly that and
carries no weight about whether X is or is not done in any other
country. Consider ``In my country, we breathe air'' and ``In my
country, we eat Marmite.''


Basic fairness demands that if a rule variant is used that
it be announced and agreed upon before start of play.

Of course. The problem comes if one of the players is not aware that
his set of rules is actually a variant.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Mentholated Soap (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ personal hygiene product but it's
invigorating!

17.06.2007 20:12, Guy Macon:

The fact that the Eastern European spectator spoke of an
alleged rule variant used in his country is an admission
that the normal rule found in the FIDE laws of chess exists.

I heard this "one can finish the move, even if the flag fell" also from
players in Germany. But to my knowledge this rule was never valid in
official German tournaments. It seems to be more some kind of an urban
legend.

Greetings,
Ralf