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#1
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Quick! What's the minimum number of moves a knight on g6 needs to get
to e4 ? To answer this question, most chess players will simply start to mentally move their knight around, counting the moves, until it lands on the desired square. Let's say you counted 4 moves: e5-g4-f6-e4 That's one way to get there, and so is: f8-e6-g5-e4. But is there a shorter route? To answer that question with some measure of certainty (as opposed to just guessing), most chess players would need to try a number of alternate paths to e4. This might take an inordinate amount of time in a game, and when the player has the answer, they might even need to go through the moves again to double-check their answer, taking even more time. And what if the player was interested in more than one destination square for the knight, or in the minimum number of moves it would take for knights starting from two different squares to reach the same square? Depending on where that square was, coming up with an answer you felt confident in could really take a long time and be very error-prone using the ordinary method of counting knight moves. Fortunately, there's a better way. I'm a fan of obscure chess books, so when I was at a local chess store the other day, the book "Knight Moves" by Charles Alexander caught my eye. In it he describes a relatively simple method, which he calls "Alexander's Technique", to count the minimum number of knight moves it would take a knight to move from any given square to any other square. Alexander's Technique consists of a number of rules-of-thumb which the player would need to memorize and apply. The rules range from the incredibly simple -- such as learning that the only times it would take a minimum of 6 moves to get a knight from one square to another is if the knight starts on one of the corner squares (a1, a8, h1, h8) and wishes to go to the diagonally-opposite square (ie. from a1 to h8, h1 to a8, etc...) -- to a number of more complex (but quite easily learnable) rules. It only took me a few minutes to start applying the rules after I'd read the book, and maybe another ten minutes to half an hour to completely internalize them... and after an hour or so of practice, I feel completely confident I'd be able to quickly (certainly under about 15 seconds, and often as little as a second or two) to figure out what the minimum number of moves it would take for a knight to get from any one given square to any other. The method can also be used to determine the minimum number of moves it would take a knight to get to groups of squares. For example, if the knight is **not** on one of the corner squares, you immediately know that the minumum number of moves it would take to get to any other square can not be greater than 5. The minimum number of moves it would take a knight to move to other groupings of squares, such as any black or any white square, could also be easily counted. Alexander's Technique does have its limitations, the most obvious one being that the presence of other pieces on the board might delay or completely stop the knight from reaching a given square in the minimum number of moves. For example, some moves might be illegal given the situation on the board at a given time (such as having a piece of the same color as the knight block one of the squares the knight needs to move to), or if the knight gets captured on its way, etc... In this case, the player is pretty much on his own in taking account of these possibilities. Still, he can be certain that the knight will not reach the destination square in less than the number of moves Alexander's Technique tells him it will. Another limitation is that the player could still make a mistake in applying Alexander's Technique, perhaps requiring a double check of some sort (by either re-applying Alexander's Technique, or manually counting out the moves). Still, given what Mr. Alexander set out to achieve with his method, I'd say he admirably reached his goal. One other thing that I should mention is that this is a really thin book. All together it's only 82 pages, about 20 of which are exercises, answers, and the index. Also, if you're just interested in learning the technique itself, without knowing why it works, you could probably skip the first 40 pages. And, if we also omit the 7 pages of examples of the technique in action, that only leaves about 8 pages that you'd have to read to learn the technique. Of course, mastering the technique will require practice, so I advise going through the examples, and doing at least 6 to 12 of the exercises (which shouldn't take you more than an hour or so). After that, you'll be counting knight moves like a pro! ![]() |
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#2
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foot wrote:
Quick! What's the minimum number of moves a knight on g6 needs to get to e4 ? Four. (Bad example -- doesn't everybody know that it takes three moves to get a knight to a horizontally/vertically adjacent square and four moves to get to the opposite corner of a 3x3 square, anywhere on the board?) To answer this question, most chess players will simply start to mentally move their knight around, counting the moves, until it lands on the desired square. Let's say you counted 4 moves: e5-g4-f6-e4 That's one way to get there, and so is: f8-e6-g5-e4. But is there a shorter route? Obviously not. e4 and g6 are both white squares so it must take an even number of moves to get between them. There's clearly no two-move route so four must be the shortest. I realise this is a specific case but the same kind of reasoning will almost always tell you that there's no shorter route. Nonetheless, Alexander's technique sounds like a total waste of time, to me. The fact that a shorter path must be at least two moves shorter makes it very easy to count the number of moves on an empty board: your first guess is almost certainly right. And the technique doesn't work when there are other pieces on the board. Which is to say, all the time. It only takes a moment to see that corner-to-corner can be done in six moves. Can it be done in fewer? No, because a knight moves a distance sqrt(5) (about 2.24 squares) on each turn, so can move at most 8.94 squares in four turns. By Pythagoras, the distance corner-to-corner is sqrt(49+49), about 9.90 squares. Obviously, you're not going to work that out over the board but, even heading as directly as possible for the opposite corner (e.g., a1-c2-d4-f5-g7) leaves you a square short. And how likely are you to find an eight-move corner-to-corner path? a1-c2-b4-d3-c5-e4-d6-f7-h8 is hardly the first thing you'd try. Dave. -- David Richerby Mouldy Zen Widget (TM): it's like a www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ thingy that puts you in touch with the universe but it's starting to grow mushrooms! |
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#3
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On 08 Oct 2007 14:13:25 +0100 (BST)
David Richerby wrote: foot wrote: Quick! What's the minimum number of moves a knight on g6 needs to get to e4 ? Four. (Bad example -- doesn't everybody know that it takes three moves to get a knight to a horizontally/vertically adjacent square and four moves to get to the opposite corner of a 3x3 square, anywhere on the board?) No. I don't think everyone knows that. In fact, I'd bet that most chess players don't know that. And they probably don't know any other techniques for determining the minimum number of moves required for a knight to get from one given square to another. To answer this question, most chess players will simply start to mentally move their knight around, counting the moves, until it lands on the desired square. Let's say you counted 4 moves: e5-g4-f6-e4 That's one way to get there, and so is: f8-e6-g5-e4. But is there a shorter route? Obviously not. e4 and g6 are both white squares so it must take an even number of moves to get between them. There's clearly no two-move route so four must be the shortest. How do you know there's no two-move route? You probably tried a number of routes to move your knight from g6 to e4 and found it couldn't get there in two moves. That's exactly the kind of trial and error approach that the technique taught in this book is designed to improve on. I realise this is a specific case but the same kind of reasoning will almost always tell you that there's no shorter route. It's good that you are able to reason about the moves a knight makes, at least to a certain extent. You might want to try doing the same with 5 and 3 move squares before you write this method off, though. Nonetheless, Alexander's technique sounds like a total waste of time, to me. The fact that a shorter path must be at least two moves shorter makes it very easy to count the number of moves on an empty board: your first guess is almost certainly right. Whether you're able to guess right without using the techniques in this book really depends on where the knight is and where your desired square is. Try guessing the number of knight moves required to go from h1 to g2, or g1 to h6. You might be surprised. Or not. In which case, this book is not for you. But I'd bet most people would take some time to figure these out with any amount of certainty. And if you're comparing how long it would take to get to more than one or two squares then the time spent on these types of calculations can really add up... especially if you want to do more than just guess. And the technique doesn't work when there are other pieces on the board. Which is to say, all the time. Actually, it does work even when there are other pieces on the board, as what the technique tells you is the **minimum** number of moves that a knight will take to get to any given square. In other words, using this technique you'll know that it will never take less than this number of moves for a knight to get to its destination square. Of course, it could always take more, depending on the situation on the board, but even if there are other pieces on the board, that doesn't mean they're going to necessarily affect the knight's path to where it's going. It really depends on the position. It only takes a moment to see that corner-to-corner can be done in six moves. Can it be done in fewer? No, because a knight moves a distance sqrt(5) (about 2.24 squares) on each turn, so can move at most 8.94 squares in four turns. By Pythagoras, the distance corner-to-corner is sqrt(49+49), about 9.90 squares. Obviously, you're not going to work that out over the board but, even heading as directly as possible for the opposite corner (e.g., a1-c2-d4-f5-g7) leaves you a square short. And how likely are you to find an eight-move corner-to-corner path? a1-c2-b4-d3-c5-e4-d6-f7-h8 is hardly the first thing you'd try. Well, the path from one corner to the diagonally opposite corner is really a "corner case" (pardon the pun), in that this kind of route doesn't happen very often at all. 2, 3, 4, and 5 move paths are much more common, and happen to be the ones where this method becomes most useful. |
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#4
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foot wrote:
David Richerby wrote: (Bad example -- doesn't everybody know that it takes three moves to get a knight to a horizontally/vertically adjacent square and four moves to get to the opposite corner of a 3x3 square, anywhere on the board?) No. I don't think everyone knows that. In fact, I'd bet that most chess players don't know that. Really? I'll admit that I had to check that the statement is true around the edges of the board. foot wrote: f8-e6-g5-e4. But is there a shorter route? Obviously not. e4 and g6 are both white squares so it must take an even number of moves to get between them. There's clearly no two-move route so four must be the shortest. How do you know there's no two-move route? Because any knight move from g6 either puts the knight on a square adjacent to e4 (f4 or e5) or on a square a long way from e4. This really isn't any harder than `How do you know there isn't a one-move route for a bishop from g2 to d3?' You probably tried a number of routes to move your knight from g6 to e4 and found it couldn't get there in two moves. No. It's instantly obvious to me that there's no two-move route. And I'm not a strong player; I'm just familiar with how the pieces move. Nonetheless, Alexander's technique sounds like a total waste of time, to me. The fact that a shorter path must be at least two moves shorter makes it very easy to count the number of moves on an empty board: your first guess is almost certainly right. Whether you're able to guess right without using the techniques in this book really depends on where the knight is and where your desired square is. Disagree. It really isn't at all difficult. Try guessing the number of knight moves required to go from h1 to g2 Four: that's not a guess but an instant calculation. My reasoning is that any move from h1 puts the knight on a square horizontally or vertically adjacent to g2 and it takes three moves to get a knight between horizontally or vertically adjacent squares. or g1 to h6. Four again; calculated in at most two seconds. Reasoning: h6 is too far away to be able to get there in two moves (it's not possible to get beyond the fifth rank) and g1-h3-g5-f7-h6 gets there in four. But I'd bet most people would take some time to figure these out with any amount of certainty. Maybe so. But here's how to do it and get it right in seconds almost every time. Important knowledge ------------------- 1) Moving between two squares of the same colour must take an even number of moves. 2) Moving between differently coloured squares must take an odd number of moves. Special cases ------------- 3) Moving to a diagonally adjacent square takes two moves, unless the source or destination is a corner, in which case it takes four. 4) Moving to a horizontally or vertically adjacent square always takes three moves. 5) Moving to the opposite corner of a 3x3 square always takes four moves. Technique --------- 6) To find the fastest route, move towards the destination in as straight a line as possible and then use the special cases 3-5 to determine the answer once you get close enough. 7) Avoid putting yourself on the opposite corner of a 3x3 square from your destination if at all possible. (For example, if you want to go from a1 to d5, don't move to b3 because it will take four more moves to get to d5. Instead, move to c2, then b4 and d5 -- three moves.) If you're wrong, you have to be wrong by at least two moves (points 1 and 2) and that's pretty hard to do. And if you're comparing how long it would take to get to more than one or two squares then the time spent on these types of calculations can really add up... They really don't. They're so fast that the difference between a second or two (getting to one square) and two or three seconds (getting to two squares) is negligible. Why would I ever want to know how long it takes a knight to get to more than two squares? And the technique doesn't work when there are other pieces on the board. Which is to say, all the time. Actually, it does work even when there are other pieces on the board, as what the technique tells you is the **minimum** number of moves that a knight will take to get to any given square. And so does my technique. Much faster. And actually looking for the routes will automatically show you which ones are or are not possible. It only takes a moment to see that corner-to-corner can be done in six moves. Can it be done in fewer? No, because [argument using Euclidean distance]. Well, the path from one corner to the diagonally opposite corner is really a "corner case" (pardon the pun), in that this kind of route doesn't happen very often at all. Of course. I wouldn't have dared to use such a crazy method as calculating Euclidean distances if I thought people might need to do this often. :-) 2, 3, 4, and 5 move paths are much more common, and happen to be the ones where this method becomes most useful. If you have difficulty working out that it takes two moves to get a knight between two squares, I really recommend you spend more time playing chess and familiarizing yourself with the pieces. I hope that doesn't sound patronizing; it isn't meant to. I'll admit to being utterly flabbergasted as to why somebody would write an eighty-page book explaining how to do something this simple. Dave. -- David Richerby Simple Painting (TM): it's like a www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ Renaissance masterpiece but it has no moving parts! |
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#5
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On 09 Oct 2007 11:21:14 +0100 (BST)
David Richerby wrote: foot wrote: f8-e6-g5-e4. But is there a shorter route? Obviously not. e4 and g6 are both white squares so it must take an even number of moves to get between them. There's clearly no two-move route so four must be the shortest. How do you know there's no two-move route? Because any knight move from g6 either puts the knight on a square adjacent to e4 (f4 or e5) or on a square a long way from e4. So, when you say "any knight move", you're pretty much admitting that you checked to see where every knight move landed. You're essentially mentally checking to see if there's a two-move route. From what you describe, it sounds like you thought something like: "g6t o e7, and it's too far from e7 to make it to e4 in one move. then, g6 to h4, and it's too far from h4 to make it to e4 in one move. then, g6 to f8, and it's too far from f8 to make it to e4 in one move. then, g6 to e5, and it's adjacent to e4, so the knight can't make it from e5 to e4 in one move. then, g6 to f4, which is adjacent to e4, so the knight can't make it from f4 to e4 in one move." Once again, this is exactly the kind of trial and error approach the book's method is supposed to improve upon. This really isn't any harder than `How do you know there isn't a one-move route for a bishop from g2 to d3?' I think it is harder. Bishops move in straight lines. Seeing that a given square is on or off the straight line path leading from a bishop is a lot easier than the process you seem to have used. By the way, I'm not claiming that the book's method makes recognizing the minimum number of moves to every single possible destination square the knight can get to as easily recognizable as a bishop move, but there are some squares which studying the book will let you recognize just as easily, and the others you can figure out without the trial and error of the sort you seem to be using. You probably tried a number of routes to move your knight from g6 to e4 and found it couldn't get there in two moves. No. It's instantly obvious to me that there's no two-move route. And I'm not a strong player; I'm just familiar with how the pieces move. Well, "obvious" doesn't mean you didn't try every possible single move route, and then see if a second move can get you to your destination square.... which is what you apparently did. It may be "obvious", but it's not very efficient, and it's easy to make a mistake when you're trying all these possible moves, or at least wind up wondering if you really tried them all or might need to go back and re-try them, just to be sure you got it right... which means more time, and more opportunity for error. But I'd bet most people would take some time to figure these out with any amount of certainty. Maybe so. But here's how to do it and get it right in seconds almost every time. Important knowledge ------------------- 1) Moving between two squares of the same colour must take an even number of moves. 2) Moving between differently coloured squares must take an odd number of moves. Special cases ------------- 3) Moving to a diagonally adjacent square takes two moves, unless the source or destination is a corner, in which case it takes four. 4) Moving to a horizontally or vertically adjacent square always takes three moves. 5) Moving to the opposite corner of a 3x3 square always takes four moves. Very good. Up to this point, the technique you describe is similar to what's in the book. However, you still haven't given any rules for determining if a given square is 3 or 5 moves away (except when the destination square is a horizontally or vertically adjacent square. Technique --------- 6) To find the fastest route, move towards the destination in as straight a line as possible and then use the special cases 3-5 to determine the answer once you get close enough. Ok. Well, now you're back to the trial and error method. There is a better way than this, and the book teaches it. And if you're comparing how long it would take to get to more than one or two squares then the time spent on these types of calculations can really add up... They really don't. They're so fast that the difference between a second or two (getting to one square) and two or three seconds (getting to two squares) is negligible. Why would I ever want to know how long it takes a knight to get to more than two squares? Your method will find that moving to a certain square will take a minimum of 5 moves in a second or two? I don't think so. And the technique doesn't work when there are other pieces on the board. Which is to say, all the time. Actually, it does work even when there are other pieces on the board, as what the technique tells you is the **minimum** number of moves that a knight will take to get to any given square. And so does my technique. Much faster. And actually looking for the routes will automatically show you which ones are or are not possible. Try using your method to on a square that's a minimum of 5 moves away, like g1 to a6 (the example I meant to give in my last message, but said "h6" for some inexplicable reason). With your method, it sounds like there will be trial and error involved, and you will be left guessing as to whether there is actually a shorter route that you might be missing. With the method taught in the book there is no guessing or trial and error. It's just a matter of applying a rule sort of like your "Moving to the opposite corner of a 3x3 square always takes four moves," only the rule will apply for squares which are a minimum of 5 moves away. 2, 3, 4, and 5 move paths are much more common, and happen to be the ones where this method becomes most useful. If you have difficulty working out that it takes two moves to get a knight between two squares, I really recommend you spend more time playing chess and familiarizing yourself with the pieces. Well, it's not a matter of difficulty. It's a matter of whether you're figuring out the minimum number of moves it will take a knight to get to a given square through trial and error and guessing, or whether you're doing it by applying rules and getting answers you can feel confident in, and doing it faster than the parts of your method that involve trial and error. I'll admit to being utterly flabbergasted as to why somebody would write an eighty-page book explaining how to do something this simple. Well, I found the book to be extremely useful, and I bet most other chess players will too. You seem to already know quite a bit more about moving knights than the average chess player (certainly much more than I did before I bought the book), so it sounds like the book may not be the best investment for you (though even for you, I think the book could teach you some better methods than the ones you're using, for certain squares on the board, such as the squares 3 and 5 moves away). |
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#6
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And, by the way, how did you know that "Moving to the opposite corner
of a 3x3 square always takes four moves." Did you, perhaps, read this in a book? Did you figure it out yourself? Or did someone teach you? (someone who themselves probably read it in a book) If it was, directly, or indirectly, received from a book, how can you maintain that such a book is useless? On 09 Oct 2007 11:21:14 +0100 (BST) David Richerby wrote: I'll admit to being utterly flabbergasted as to why somebody would write an eighty-page book explaining how to do something this simple. I never claimed you had to read the entire eighty-page book to learn the methods within. In fact, in my review I explicitly said that you'd only need to read about 8 pages of it to learn the method. The rest of the book explains why the method works, provides examples, exercises, answers, reference, and index... with lots of diagrams to boot. All this makes the method easier to learn. I, for one, am glad the author didn't try to cram the whole method in to a single page, without any examples, explanations, exercises, diagrams, or answers... as I would have probably had a harder time learning it. Anyway, no one will force you to read the entire book. You can read as much or as little of it as you find useful. |
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#7
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foot wrote:
And, by the way, how did you know that "Moving to the opposite corner of a 3x3 square always takes four moves." I honestly can't remember. It's something I've known `forever', so to speak. If it was, directly, or indirectly, received from a book, how can you maintain that such a book is useless? Perhaps it was from a book. But if it was, it was a book that happened to contain this information and much more besides, not a book specifically about how to get a knight from A to B. David Richerby wrote: I'll admit to being utterly flabbergasted as to why somebody would write an eighty-page book explaining how to do something this simple. I never claimed you had to read the entire eighty-page book to learn the methods within. In fact, in my review I explicitly said that you'd only need to read about 8 pages of it to learn the method. Well, yes. But it's still an eighty page book and it's still eight pages to describe how to do something trivial. I, for one, am glad the author didn't try to cram the whole method in to a single page, without any examples, explanations, exercises, diagrams, or answers... as I would have probably had a harder time learning it. Of course. And it may well be an especially well-written book that explains the method extremely well. But it still strikes me as being like a book that teaches you enough rock-climbing skills to let you get to the second floor of your house by scaling the outside wall and coming in through the window, rather than just telling you to walk up the stairs. Dave. -- David Richerby Broken Ghost (TM): it's like a www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ haunting spirit but it doesn't work! |
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#8
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On Oct 9, 11:33 am, foot wrote:
And, by the way, how did you know that "Moving to the opposite corner of a 3x3 square always takes four moves." Did you, perhaps, read this in a book? Did you figure it out yourself? Or did someone teach you? (someone who themselves probably read it in a book) If it was, directly, or indirectly, received from a book, how can you maintain that such a book is useless? On 09 Oct 2007 11:21:14 +0100 (BST) David Richerby wrote: I'll admit to being utterly flabbergasted as to why somebody would write an eighty-page book explaining how to do something this simple. I never claimed you had to read the entire eighty-page book to learn the methods within. In fact, in my review I explicitly said that you'd only need to read about 8 pages of it to learn the method. The rest of the book explains why the method works, provides examples, exercises, answers, reference, and index... with lots of diagrams to boot. All this makes the method easier to learn. I, for one, am glad the author didn't try to cram the whole method in to a single page, without any examples, explanations, exercises, diagrams, or answers... as I would have probably had a harder time learning it. Anyway, no one will force you to read the entire book. You can read as much or as little of it as you find useful. This may be of interest as an intellectual exercise or parlor trick, but its utility in practical play seems rather limited. I suppose it might save some calculating time in an unusual endgame where it was critical to get a knight to a distant square in the fewest moves, but in most real-game positions, especially in the middle game, any moderately experienced player can plot a knight's optimal path with ease. Does Alexander claim his technique is of much practical use? |
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#9
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On 09 Oct 2007 17:33:33 +0100 (BST)
David Richerby wrote: If it was, directly, or indirectly, received from a book, how can you maintain that such a book is useless? Perhaps it was from a book. But if it was, it was a book that happened to contain this information and much more besides, not a book specifically about how to get a knight from A to B. Why do you object to niche chess books? If they achieve what they set out to do, what's the problem? I never claimed you had to read the entire eighty-page book to learn the methods within. In fact, in my review I explicitly said that you'd only need to read about 8 pages of it to learn the method. Well, yes. But it's still an eighty page book and it's still eight pages to describe how to do something trivial. I don't think it's trivial. Nor do I think most chess players would find it trivial. I think the book could have been shorter (by omitting the first half that describes why the method works), but then it would have been less interesting. It could have also been shortened by taking out the examples, exercises, and diagrams, but then it would have made learning the method harder. So, I think it's really the perfect length. I, for one, am glad the author didn't try to cram the whole method in to a single page, without any examples, explanations, exercises, diagrams, or answers... as I would have probably had a harder time learning it. Of course. And it may well be an especially well-written book that explains the method extremely well. But it still strikes me as being like a book that teaches you enough rock-climbing skills to let you get to the second floor of your house by scaling the outside wall and coming in through the window, rather than just telling you to walk up the stairs. Well, the trial and error parts of the method you describe is not like "walking up the stairs", but more like trying to solve a maze by randomly picking directions, instead of always making right hand turns. But, hey, it works for you... and you seem to be in no hurry to improve on it. Fine. But I do think that many other chess players will be interested in learning a better way. |
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#10
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On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:42:58 -0700
Taylor Kingston wrote: This may be of interest as an intellectual exercise or parlor trick, but its utility in practical play seems rather limited. I suppose it might save some calculating time in an unusual endgame where it was critical to get a knight to a distant square in the fewest moves, I don't think this is unusual at all. I've played many endgames myself where doing just this was important. Using a knight to try to stop a pawn from queening is relatively common. Sure, it doesn't happen in every endgame, but I think it happens often enough that improving one's technique would be useful, and certainly more than a "parlour trick". but in most real-game positions, especially in the middle game, any moderately experienced player can plot a knight's optimal path with ease. Most middlegame knight moves aren't very lengthy, so in general I agree. But sometimes you do want to get a knight from the queenside to the kingside (or perhaps to an adjacent square, which can sometimes take up to four moves), and this method will quickly and reliably tell you what the minimum number of moves such a path must take. I think this is also useful... though I suppose some people might be satisfied with just using a trial and error method. Does Alexander claim his technique is of much practical use? Well, here's the blurb from the back of the book. (I don't know if this was written by Alexander or his publisher) "Knight moves are the most difficult to visualize on the chess board. In the endgame it is frequently necessary to determine whether a knight can reach a certain square to intercept a passed pawn or protect one of your own pieces or pawns. In the time pressure of many tournament endgames, it is even more difficult to concentrate and feel confident that you have correctly calculated the possible path of the knight and the number of moves necessary in the variation. This often leads a player to repeat the sequence in the mind a number of times to feel certain that his projected moves will indeed accomplish the objective. Mr. Alexander has developed a set of tools which make it very precise and quick to determine the required number of moves, and whether or not a sequence of knight moves will achieve a goal. The author has developed a wonderful set of graphs which visualize the possibilities of moving a knight to a desired goal. Many players will find this technique to be invaluable in winning endgames involving the knight, or even combinations in the course of the middlegame." |
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| Conditional moves at PlayChess.de | sixty4@playchess.de | rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) | 0 | September 16th 06 04:23 PM |