"Rich Hutnik" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Nov 1, 8:33 pm, " wrote:
THIS CRAZY WORLD OF CHESS by GM Larry Evans (page 82)
Just Testing

I believe there is still hope they are holding out it become an
Olympic event.

a fellow soccer ref is actually an olympic advisor for field hockey - he
says no way! they want to get back to something more like athletics for
olympic inclusion

---

Just curious whether chess is a summer or a winter event.

laugh! last winter there was a moscow / london game [organised by karpov?]
and the pieces in both cities started to melt - symbolically the last brit
piece to go was the king, modelled after Big Ben

i always though underwater chess would have a chance at the olympics - you
dive down to the bottom of the swimming pool and move one of those large
pieces ... should be lots of fun if played at say, 5 mins on the clock?

the only other way i can think of getting athleticism into chess would be to
play a match on a football field, where you had to run between 4 boards set
50 feet apart, with 10 mins on each clock

Can anyone tell me exactly what benefits people would get from using
drugs when playing chess? Is there some Balco brain booster around
anywhere?

there are various claims to 'boost your brainpower' though if any of these
are better than getting a good night's sleep is very uncertain, i have not
read any GM comments that any substances would give opponent unfair
advantage

apart from its intrusive nature, the other objection to drug testing in
chess is that our game then becomes voluntarily associated with sports which
do involve drug-taking, and why would we do that?

Phil Innes


- Rich

Kenneth Sloan wrote:
johnny_t wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 3, 11:46 pm, johnny_t wrote:
Rich Hutnik wrote:
Can anyone tell me exactly what benefits people would get from using
drugs when playing chess? Is there some Balco brain booster around
anywhere?
There are demonstrated benefits of certain cardio drugs, like
beta-blockers and caffeine. There hasn't been alot of research in this
space, but there has been more activity in high-level bridge.

I TAKE BETA BLOCKERS. I HAVE BEEN ON TERNORMIN for 20 YEARS.
HOW CAN I PLAY CHESS IN A DRUG TEST?

MArcus Roberts


Wow, and to think you had been caught up on this debate.

You know certain asthma drugs can help you when you are swimming.
Have you noticed the handful of worldclass swimmers that are asthmatic?

Beta Blockers are used by people auditioning for prestigious openings
at high ranking artistic schools, surely some of them have high blood
pressure.

There are studies that show improved memory and test taking abilities
with certain drugs. How many ELO points could a player improve if
properly drugged?

42


Let me get my towel....

On Nov 4, 7:46 am, "Chess One" wrote:
"Rich Hutnik" wrote in message

ups.com...

On Nov 1, 8:33 pm, " wrote:
THIS CRAZY WORLD OF CHESS by GM Larry Evans (page 82)
Just Testing
I believe there is still hope they are holding out it become an
Olympic event.

a fellow soccer ref is actually an olympic advisor for field hockey - he
says no way! they want to get back to something more like athletics for
olympic inclusion

And other athletic events in the Olympics use a single muscle by
contestants, so this is absurd here. You need to use your body in
order to be able to play chess. If you make it its own Olympics, I
don't see why it shouldn't happen. There needs to be sufficient
amount of events pleading the case. Is archery still an event?

Just curious whether chess is a summer or a winter event.

laugh! last winter there was a moscow / london game [organised by karpov?]
and the pieces in both cities started to melt - symbolically the last brit
piece to go was the king, modelled after Big Ben

They made the pieces out of ice or snow? Hmm...

i always though underwater chess would have a chance at the olympics - you
dive down to the bottom of the swimming pool and move one of those large
pieces ... should be lots of fun if played at say, 5 mins on the clock?

the only other way i can think of getting athleticism into chess would be to
play a match on a football field, where you had to run between 4 boards set
50 feet apart, with 10 mins on each clock

How about chess boxing? Box one round, play speed chess, box another
round? Go look up chess boxing.

Can anyone tell me exactly what benefits people would get from using
drugs when playing chess? Is there some Balco brain booster around
anywhere?

there are various claims to 'boost your brainpower' though if any of these
are better than getting a good night's sleep is very uncertain, i have not
read any GM comments that any substances would give opponent unfair
advantage

apart from its intrusive nature, the other objection to drug testing in
chess is that our game then becomes voluntarily associated with sports which
do involve drug-taking, and why would we do that?

Because there is an off-chance chess gets accepted as a true sport and
may get into an Olympics? Hope now is to grow the World Mind Sports
Games into something so large that the Olympic committee feels
compelled to stick the Olympic rings next to it. I hold out hope for
this, so that eventually Poker also becomes an Olympic event and you
can see Phil Helmuth and others go for the gold. I want to see Phil
flip the table right as he goes for the gold because he tilts :-)

- Rich

"Rich Hutnik" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Nov 4, 7:46 am, "Chess One" wrote:
"Rich Hutnik" wrote in message

ups.com...

On Nov 1, 8:33 pm, " wrote:
THIS CRAZY WORLD OF CHESS by GM Larry Evans (page 82)
Just Testing
I believe there is still hope they are holding out it become an
Olympic event.

a fellow soccer ref is actually an olympic advisor for field hockey - he
says no way! they want to get back to something more like athletics for
olympic inclusion

And other athletic events in the Olympics use a single muscle by
contestants, so this is absurd here. You need to use your body in
order to be able to play chess. If you make it its own Olympics, I
don't see why it shouldn't happen. There needs to be sufficient
amount of events pleading the case. Is archery still an event?

I think there can be an argument made for steroid abuse, for example, when a
player tires of lifting those heavy pieces hour after hour. Or more sensibly
if perhaps the need for physical fitness is important if you play 3 or 4
hour games? Of course, what player of GM calibre actually says this is a
preference to working out for an hour using a gym, or maybe swimming? What
GM would not have doubts about the down-side of 'bulking up'?

Just curious whether chess is a summer or a winter event.

laugh! last winter there was a moscow / london game [organised by
karpov?]
and the pieces in both cities started to melt - symbolically the last
brit
piece to go was the king, modelled after Big Ben

They made the pieces out of ice or snow? Hmm...

Carved ice blocks. you can probably google newspaper archives on it - sorry
forgot where i read it - bbc or times or telegraph?

i always though underwater chess would have a chance at the olympics -
you
dive down to the bottom of the swimming pool and move one of those large
pieces ... should be lots of fun if played at say, 5 mins on the clock?

the only other way i can think of getting athleticism into chess would be
to
play a match on a football field, where you had to run between 4 boards
set
50 feet apart, with 10 mins on each clock

How about chess boxing? Box one round, play speed chess, box another
round? Go look up chess boxing.

they are already trying that, and chess soccer

for americans we obviously need chess football!

you team up with a football club, so maybe half a dozen Chicago Bears will
give piggy back rides to a team v team simul, with lots of boards set up but
widely seperated - and the commentators can go on about board 4 with
Onishuk, who is up on 'The Fridge' colliding with and wiping out Jen Shahade
being caried around by the Colts - the clocks are stopped for a medical
time-out

meanwhile Kamsky is behaving badly on board 2, by doing a victory dance
after capturing the exchange, and which is going to get him a 20 second
penalty! yes! down goes a flag from the line-arbiter, and Kamsky will now be
substituted by special teams big defensive back Greg Shahade, in to hold the
position for a dozen moves

maybe add a few water jumps, mud pools, mouth-organ bands, and cheerleaders
comprised entirely of a group of obvious geeks from MIT who shout out Fritz
analysis from their pocket computers, several of which are home-made

Rah! Rah! Rook e4!

.

apart from its intrusive nature, the other objection to drug testing in
chess is that our game then becomes voluntarily associated with sports
which
do involve drug-taking, and why would we do that?

Because there is an off-chance chess gets accepted as a true sport and
may get into an Olympics? Hope now is to grow the World Mind Sports
Games into something so large that the Olympic committee feels
compelled to stick the Olympic rings next to it. I hold out hope for
this, so that eventually Poker also becomes an Olympic event and you
can see Phil Helmuth and others go for the gold. I want to see Phil
flip the table right as he goes for the gold because he tilts :-)

I see we consider futures anthropologies which differ. But if the answer to
the question of why associate with a drug culture is because the Olympics
has some cache to its status [and money around it] an alternatively is that
Mind Sports keeps its distance - and I wonder if potential viewers will see
it as any less?

Cordially, Phil Innes

- Rich

On Nov 4, 4:47 pm, Rich Hutnik wrote:
On Nov 4, 7:46 am, "Chess One" wrote:

"Rich Hutnik" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Nov 1, 8:33 pm, " wrote:
THIS CRAZY WORLD OF CHESS by GM Larry Evans (page 82)
Just Testing
I believe there is still hope they are holding out it become an
Olympic event.

a fellow soccer ref is actually an olympic advisor for field hockey - he
says no way! they want to get back to something more like athletics for
olympic inclusion

And other athletic events in the Olympics use a single muscle by
contestants, so this is absurd here.

What's absurd is the assumption that athletic events require "a single
muscle."

On Nov 5, 7:07 am, "Chess One" wrote:
I think there can be an argument made for steroid abuse, for example, when a
player tires of lifting those heavy pieces hour after hour. Or more sensibly
if perhaps the need for physical fitness is important if you play 3 or 4
hour games? Of course, what player of GM calibre actually says this is a
preference to working out for an hour using a gym, or maybe swimming? What
GM would not have doubts about the down-side of 'bulking up'?

I am reminded of a joke article on poker players all of a sudden
improving their performance due to enhancement drugs :-)

They made the pieces out of ice or snow? Hmm...

Carved ice blocks. you can probably google newspaper archives on it - sorry
forgot where i read it - bbc or times or telegraph?

Ok, no problem. I figured that was it.

How about chess boxing? Box one round, play speed chess, box another
round? Go look up chess boxing.

they are already trying that, and chess soccer

Chess Boxing is still going on actually:
http://site.wcbo.org/content/index_en.html

for americans we obviously need chess football!

How about chess rastlin'? Vince McMahon runs XCL, Xtreme Chess
League :-)

maybe add a few water jumps, mud pools, mouth-organ bands, and cheerleaders
comprised entirely of a group of obvious geeks from MIT who shout out Fritz
analysis from their pocket computers, several of which are home-made

Rah! Rah! Rook e4!

And you have Bill Belichick of the New England Knights in a scandal
where he ends up stealing signals from the Fritz Analyst. He gets
upset and sends Randy Moss down the side of the chessboard to run up
the scores in revenge. Say chess doesn't have scores? Well, chess
football does! :-P You get seven points for each piece you get into
the back rank. Ok, I shouldn't of gone there, now I am inspired to do
a chess variant based on this :-).

Because there is an off-chance chess gets accepted as a true sport and
may get into an Olympics? Hope now is to grow the World Mind Sports
Games into something so large that the Olympic committee feels
compelled to stick the Olympic rings next to it. I hold out hope for
this, so that eventually Poker also becomes an Olympic event and you
can see Phil Helmuth and others go for the gold. I want to see Phil
flip the table right as he goes for the gold because he tilts :-)

I see we consider futures anthropologies which differ. But if the answer to
the question of why associate with a drug culture is because the Olympics
has some cache to its status [and money around it] an alternatively is that
Mind Sports keeps its distance - and I wonder if potential viewers will see
it as any less?

Ok, I am a bit confused by what you wrote there. I will assume you
were stating why drugs were around, because of the desire to have mind
sports have the same status as standard olympics, so the mind sports
try to emulate as much as possible. Am I right in your understanding?

- Rich

If you can understand Phil, you are doing better than most of
us....

Just found this interesting link between chess and physical sport:

Chess and hoops

· What: Family Chess Knight with the Denver Nuggets

· When, whe Nov. 23, Pepsi Center

· Tickets: $15 includes seminar, game, hot dog and a soda. Call Nick
Gray at 303-405-6187 or go to www.pepsicenter.com/KSEForms/Nuggets/ChessNight

As to chess in the Olympics, makes no sense to me, and chess has its
own Olympiad.

On Nov 2, 6:33 pm, help bot wrote:
On Nov 1, 7:33 pm, " wrote:

Two players had their scores erased at the 2004 World Team
Championship in Calvia because they refused to comply with a "random"
drug test demanded by FIDE. Yet many people wonder why there is any
need to enforce Olympic restrictions now that both the International
Olympic Committee (IOC) and the USA Olympic Committee (USOC) have
flatly rejected chess as a sport.

On August 20, 2001, Larry Parr and I wrote a position paper for the
FIDE Advisory Committee of the USCF. We argued that FIDE initiated
drug testing knowing full well that chess was a nonstarter in the
summer or winter Olympics for the simple reason that it's not an
athletic sport and we analyzed FIDE's real motives.

I'm going to go out on a limb here -- not knowing who
those two players were -- and take a guess: the purported
motive of FIDE was to gain control, to get some leverage
with which they could silence vocal critics or even put the
whammy on especially annoying ones (like say, GM
Evans).

But here is my challenge: name those two players, and
tell us if they were vocal critics of FIDE or not. I'm going
to guess that they were not vocal critics of FIDE, that they
did not need silencing, and that maybe suspicion was
aroused by unusual *performances* (like when I downed a
stay-awake pill and later found that I was cleaning house,
which is /very unusual/ for me.


I was one of those players, which you could have found out by visiting
the FIDE website and reading the published judgement on the case.
Am I a vocal critic of FIDE? Certainly in the area of drug testing I
am, and in refusing the drug test I made my own position clear.
I don't think that 7.5/14 was a suspicious result either, although I
did get 40 ratings points from the tournament, as FIDE rated the games
even after taking points off my team.
And do I qualify as a crackpot? Not according to FIDE, as I am a
current member of both the FIDE Technical Commision and the FIDE Rules
and Tournament Regulations Committee

On Nov 5, 11:53 pm, wrote:

On August 20, 2001, Larry Parr and I wrote a position paper for the
FIDE Advisory Committee of the USCF. We argued that FIDE initiated
drug testing knowing full well that chess was a nonstarter in the
summer or winter Olympics for the simple reason that it's not an
athletic sport and we analyzed FIDE's real motives.

I'm going to go out on a limb here -- not knowing who
those two players were -- and take a guess: the purported
motive of FIDE was to gain control, to get some leverage
with which they could silence vocal critics or even put the
whammy on especially annoying ones (like say, GM
Evans).

But here is my challenge: name those two players, and
tell us if they were vocal critics of FIDE or not. I'm going
to guess that they were not vocal critics of FIDE, that they
did not need silencing, and that maybe suspicion was
aroused by unusual *performances* (like when I downed a
stay-awake pill and later found that I was cleaning house,
which is /very unusual/ for me.

I was one of those players, which you could have found out by visiting
the FIDE website and reading the published judgement on the case.


Thanks for taking up the challenge.

I note that both players still remain unnamed, and although
an assertion is made, I have seen nothing here in the way
of evidence that FIDE's motive was to "silence" the two
players. (Obviously, if what you say is true, they have not
yet silenced you, so this argues /against/ such a position.)

As far as visiting some Web site to locate a published
judgment on a case, that is not something I do unless I am
informed of its existence.


Am I a vocal critic of FIDE?

Um, there were allegedly /two/ players, not just one.
Both were to be "silenced" via drug testing. Why is it that
my challenge is being skirted here? One player is being
completely ignored, while the other remains unnamed and
seems to be talking his head off instead of remaining
"silenced" by FIDE.


Certainly in the area of drug testing I
am, and in refusing the drug test I made my own position clear.
I don't think that 7.5/14 was a suspicious result either, although I
did get 40 ratings points from the tournament, as FIDE rated the games
even after taking points off my team.

That seems inconsistent with other reports I have read
here, which indicated that such games were *not* rated.
(I don't know, one way or the other.)

BTW, I don't know how many of these tests FIDE conducts,
nor do I know anything about how it is determined who must
take them. I noted that it was unfortunate that there were no
"investigative reporters" on this issue, just ad hominists who
use implication and innuendo to bash FIDE. That was
intended to be taken as a challenge, but once an ad
hominist, always an ad hominist. Such people have no
use for facts, as they often as not just /get in their way/.


And do I qualify as a crackpot?


You appear to have missed the boat here. My comment
regarding crackpots targeted writers like Larry Parr and
Larry Evans, who make a habit of telling others what
organizations they don't like, believe.

Point one: organizations don't think or believe anything.

Point two: even if they did, crackpots have no special
powers to read these organization's minds, and then
relate what they and they alone have conjured.

Point three: these two crackpots in particular have a
long record of making up stories, and when later the
facts are determined to contradict them, brushing off
their titanic blunders as tiny errors which somehow
crept in on their own. Let me know if you would like
to see specific examples (Louis Blair has a database
containing *numerous* such examples).


Instead of another fun FIDE-bashing session, I
challenge any /real/ reporters here to investigate the
pertinent facts surrounding motives and processes
involved in FIDE's drug testing. And in particular,
I would challenge those who have a /real/ interest in
the facts to investigate the U.S. military's extensive,
published documentation regarding the efficacy of
certain drugs for the enhancement of mental and
physical performance.


I'm not against having fun; I just don't want that
masquerading around as "journalism". It gives fun
a bad name.


-- help bot

"Rich Hutnik" wrote in message
ups.com...

maybe add a few water jumps, mud pools, mouth-organ bands, and
cheerleaders
comprised entirely of a group of obvious geeks from MIT who shout out
Fritz
analysis from their pocket computers, several of which are home-made

Rah! Rah! Rook e4!

And you have Bill Belichick of the New England Knights in a scandal
where he ends up stealing signals from the Fritz Analyst. He gets
upset and sends Randy Moss down the side of the chessboard to run up
the scores in revenge. Say chess doesn't have scores?

wait wait wait! too many good ideas too fast!

first of all you identify a need to create a Commissioner for Chess,
otherwise, where do you send the backsheesh to? then, and only then, can you
have rules and special committees to evaluate chess Slo-Mo records from the
helmet-cam [see below] and create really controversial rulings

secondly - chess betting! every 5 moves you can chip in; maybe Kamsky went
from 3:1 to evens, but you can still make an instant covering bet with
FritZino, the thinkin' man's on-line bettin' joint... even on certain moves
or squares being covered... or even play the 100-1 long odds where 2 bishops
wind up on the 8th rank...

[which happened to me recently, there was just no other place to park 'em
where they weren't in the way]

Well, chess
football does! :-P You get seven points for each piece you get into
the back rank. Ok, I shouldn't of gone there, now I am inspired to do
a chess variant based on this :-).

would you think players should have uniforms, helmets? helmet cams?

and the helmets could have Penalty Visors - Kamsky's visor comes down and
he's in the dark for 30 seconds in a 5 minute blitz game!

O no! Kamsky has fumbled his rook which has rolled onto the pitch. His
Opponent "Texas Sue" Polgar generously indicates to the arbiter to retrieve
it for him, but her evil husband disguised in 10-gallon hat darts near the
board and kicks the rook out of play beyond his reach!

Boooo! The normally sedate audience go crazy!

2 Pirc players pass-out from the excitement.

A Cali-fella called Jerry runs onto the pitch screaming his head off - but
this is normal. If he hadn't been waving a chair then Jen Shahade wouldn't
have reacted, but she decks him with a right-cross, and does a high five
with Irina Krush, then they both stomp the body

Back at the board the penalty is over, but players have to move tables for
moves 5 to 10 by running across the Croc-Swamp to the new location - later
on it will get even more exciting since the third board for moves 11-15 are
accessed by crawling under 200 feet of rickety chesstables, and somewhere
under there lurks Sam Sloan...

I see we consider futures anthropologies which differ. But if the answer
to
the question of why associate with a drug culture is because the Olympics
has some cache to its status [and money around it] an alternatively is
that
Mind Sports keeps its distance - and I wonder if potential viewers will
see
it as any less?

Ok, I am a bit confused by what you wrote there. I will assume you
were stating why drugs were around, because of the desire to have mind
sports have the same status as standard olympics, so the mind sports
try to emulate as much as possible. Am I right in your understanding?

Yeah - why associate chess with a sports culture which uses drugs?

Anyway, I think you have some fine ideas suitable for a tv program, an
intellectual Jeux Sans Frontieres, and I have one remaining question - would
you happen to be a billionairre at all, like our Marcus here? If so, I would
like to introduce you to my colleage "Lex".

Cordially, Luke WarmWalker

- Rich