On Feb 23, 11:02 am, "
wrote:

I tried again to play a game to start to triangulate on a rating for
GitClub. Here's what happened. I thought I would try ChessMaster 10
with its rated personalities (who knows how good the ratings are and
under what conditions they were taken, but what the heck). I used a
personality with an 1193 rating and set the game for 2/6 Fischer time,
with CM as black, GC as white; GC at "easy" level (40 seconds per move
in theory). Here is the game:

White -- Black
(easy) -- (CM 1193)

1. d2-d4{34} e7-e5{24}
2. d4-e5{28} Bf8-c5{18}
3. Nb1-c3{26} Ng8-f6{20}
4. Ng1-f3{74} Rh8-g8{14}
5. e5-f6{20} Qd8-f6{12}
6. Nc3-d5{32} Qf6-d8{14}
7. Bc1-f4{32} d7-d6{28}
8. Qd1-d3{36} c7-c6{12}
9. Qd3-h7{42} Ke8-f8{12}
10. Nd5-c3{22} Qd8-e7{18}
11. Qh7-g8{20}

I never actually saw GC's 11th move; the board disappeared and GC
claimed a win when it had in fact just thrown away its queen (I looked
up the move in GC's move records afterwards). I guess GC thought this
was checkmate even though the white queen is unprotected.

Now, up to this point I was reasonably impressed. ChessMaster was
doing its usual stupid thing of throwing away material to lower its
rating, but GitClub was handily taking advantage of it (though when CM
threw away a knight GC waited an extra move to pick it up; luckily CM
left it hanging). Still, under these conditions thus far in the game
it seemed like GC was on the way to victory.

But with stupid bugs like claiming a checkmate in error, who has the
patience to try to evaluate GC properly, with a long enough series of
games under controlled conditions? I was about to do that but I was
frustrated again.

No doubt Sanny will fix this bug and proclaim the program better than
ever and ready to trounce Rybka in the future, but I'm about ready to
give it all up. After so many months the program ought to at least
play by the rules. And it would be really nice to show the final
position and not just delete the board and say "game over."


You know, it's funny how people suddenly
"show up" to report their test results when
the GetClub program is freaking out. Most
of the time, the program is playing a decent
game of chess and nobody "reports" on
their latest results, but when the serious
bugs pop up, invariably, several posters will
appear, complaining that this is the worst
chess program they've ever seen!

In my recent games, I have never seen the
program fail to make a one-move capture like
this, and in fact I had one position where the
program made a clever sacrifice, which was
to regain its material by force (I declined)
two moves later! Where it really has trouble
is in the endgame, and in misjudging spite
checks as something of real value. I think
the fact that Sanny keeps making reckless
changes is distorting the reporting here, by
encouraging reports by those who beat the
program like a carrot, while allowing those
who lose to remain silent; look at the Web
site itself and you will see that plenty of
players are losing games, but who are they
and where are their reports? Not here, that's
for sure! Not one player has come here to
"report" that they were outplayed-- ain't that
odd?


As for the program which hangs pieces as
quickly as possible to simulate the strength
of an 1100 player, that is a very poor way to
go about it. Human players tend to overlook
forks and mating attacks, but they don't just
move their pieces where they can be taken
by an enemy pawn-- except in scholastic
chess, way down below 1100. The 4. ...Rg8
move reminds me of little kids, who don't
quite know how all the pieces move yet;
these days, they might have ratings well
below 1000 at that level. And yet each time
its Queen was attacked, the program saved
it-- like someone who could play decent
chess. Who knows-- maybe this bizarre
combination of tactical alertness with regard
to the Queen, and suicidal tendencies with
regard to Knights balances out, resulting in
a net 1100 strength.

After Sanny said he had fixed the bugs
which were letting other people beat GC like
carrots (I was stuck in a won position where
the program refused to move, remember?),
I played another game-- a Benoni. Everything
seemed "normal" again; I sort of won a pawn
(don't count 'em; just look at how my pawn is
usable while its is superfluous) but ran into
some trouble with regard to my King's safety.
The program choked its opportunities, and
next thing I know I am mopping up a won
endgame, as usual. I would say it put up a
decent fight, but that its play was a bit
peculiar; no way is this thing anywhere near
USCF 1100 *strength*, although its style
could be compared to that of such a player.
More like 1700 or so is my guess. I think I
would far rather play a human 1500 player
than this monstrosity in a tournament; this
critter /can be/ dangerous, while the 1500
will not likely "see" anything I would miss.


-- help bot

On Feb 23, 11:28 am, "J.D. Walker" wrote:

It seems very simple to me. If a program can not play by the rules, its
rating is zero.

Hey, Fritz looks up its opening moves in a
"book" it has stored on my machine-- which
is cheating. And Shredder has a lookup
table where it stores prefabricated answers
to test questions I have to solve on the fly!
It is understood that programmers just aren't
smart enough to do the job correctly, so we
let them cheat a bit; Sanny's programmers
aren't smart enough to even figure out the
basics, so why not let them cheat even more?


Well, we are not really trying to assign an
official rating anyhow; all we are doing is
trying to estimate the program's *strength*,
when and if it does play legal moves.


-- help bot

On Feb 23, 1:36 pm, " wrote:

I think Chess Master took was thinking on GetClubs Move and that may
be the reasion of such poor game.

To my knowledge CM was not thinking on GC's time.

Here we go again. You two seem to place
your own /convenience/ ahead of such things
as getting meaningful results. Try playing
the two programs against one another on
two separate machines, so there is **no
possibility** of what is discussed above.

That is what we technical folks call scientific
research; it is the precise opposite of funky
research in which the operators hope, pray,
or just assume that the test has any validity.

The key difference is that in science, you
remove everything related just to the operator
from the equation, focusing on the actual
subjects, the chess programs. If the operators
like Twinkies, you factor that out. And if they
make typos, you factor that out. Once you
remove the operators, and all their weird idio-
synchrocies, what is left yields information
about the chess programs themselves, the
actual subjects of the study.

If you folks are not up to the task, then
forward all your Twinkies to me, along with
any Hostess Ding Dongs you have lying
around, and I will be happy to do the job,
/gratis/.
A few changes: operator time, including
typing, eating and drinking, will no longer
be reported as Rybka's thinking time (duh!).
Rybka's selected level will no longer be
given here as "easy" or "hard", nor will the
version tested be kept a deep, dark secret.
You may notice that both programs can
actually finish a game, now and then, on
account of a *competent* operator taking
over for these two.
Finally, please supply more Twinkies;
bots do not live by bread alone... .


-- helpful bot

I played another game-- a Benoni. Everything
seemed "normal" again; I sort of won a pawn
(don't count 'em; just look at how my pawn is
usable while its is superfluous) but ran into
some trouble with regard to my King's safety.
The program choked its opportunities, and
next thing I know I am mopping up a won
endgame, as usual. *I would say it put up a

Thats what I am looking for. Please show me the recorded game where
this happened along with the Move number and which moves are wrong and
what was the correct move at that time. If I know a mistake then only
I can ask to improve it.

Whenever you find a wrong move Just tell me the move number along with
recorded game link. As Below,


-----------------------------------
EXAMPLE STARTS

int the game Recorded Game Link: http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html?link=xyz

Like 35: Qe3 is wrong Move.

The reasion it is wrong:
1......
2. ....
3. ....

Correct Move is Qf4, Why: ......

25. Qe3 gives a loss of 2 points.

EXAMPLE ENDS
-----------------------------------

This way I will know why a move is wrong. And once I correct the game
you will not find such weak move again.


Bye
Sanny

On Feb 23, 11:52*pm, "
wrote:
Here Rybka again played very smartly and won the game.

I don't think Rybka played a brilliant game, but in honesty if you
look closely you must say that GC played a really terrible game.
19.... Qe6 for instance, throwing away the queen; even I know better
than that. *How can you possibly think something this bad rates above
2000? *You seem to have Rybka, well, do an analysis and find all the
bad GC moves.

There was no good Move other than 19. ... Qe6.

Why
If you Play any other Move White will play 20 Nxc6 and the Queen is
gone and you are Check Mated.

So to prevent Mate in 2 It played 19 ... Qe6 Can you suggest any other
move where you do not see a Mate in 2.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Toaday a Big Bug was Found which was causing it not to see all the
moves. If say in Chipchap move QxR It just do not see KxQ????

So it was a big bug. For every move it made it was not seeing all
moves and leaving a few moves just like a blind cannot see things.

Now that Bug has been removed and it will not play such game. Since
the game was improved a lot of things were changed And even if a small
code is wrongly written it plays horrible game.

I will play more games against Rybka to see if there is any more bug
left out.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Here is a game with Beginner Level. Beginner Level Surviuved till 30
Moves after the Bug removed Earlier it lost in just 24 Moves.

Game Played between sanjay11 and beginner at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sanjay11: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...077&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(sanjay11) -- (beginner)

1. e2-e4{4} e7-e5{0}
2. Ng1-f3{28} Nb8-c6{0}
3. Bf1-b5{12} a7-a6{0}
4. Bb5-a4{10} Ng8-f6{0}
5. Ke1-g1{20} b7-b5{8}
6. Ba4-b3{14} Bc8-b7{8}
7. a2-a4{10} Nf6-e4{6}
8. Rf1-e1{14} Nc6-d4{10}
9. Nf3-d4{14} e5-d4{16}
10. Qd1-f3{44} f7-f5{10}
11. Qf3-f5{18} Qd8-e7{8}
12. d2-d3{12} g7-g6{8}
13. Qf5-g4{14} d7-d5{8}
14. d3-e4{12} d5-e4{6}
15. a4-b5{18} a6-a5{10}
16. Nb1-d2{22} Qe7-b4{10}
17. Re1-e4{12} Bf8-e7{6}
18. Re4-d4{12} Qb4-c5{10}
19. Qg4-d7{16} Ke8-f8{12}
20. Rd4-f4{16} Qc5-f5{6}
21. Rf4-f5{36} g6-f5{6}
22. Qd7-c7{22} h7-h5{6}
23. Qc7-b7{64} Ra8-d8{10}
24. b5-b6{12} h5-h4{10}
25. Ra1-a5{12} Rh8-h5{8}
26. Ra5-a8{16} Rd8-a8{6}
27. Qb7-a8{10} Be7-d8{6}
28. b6-b7{26} Kf8-g7{8}
29. Qb7-b8{Q}{12} Rh5-h8{6}
30. Qb8-e5{20} Bd8-f6{8}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sanjay11: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...077&game=Chess

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

After the Bug was removed I played a game against Easy Level and it
played Very well and managed to escape Mate till 51 Moves.

Despite the fact it lost its knight in the beginning Easy level was
able to give good fight to Rybka.

Game Played between sanjay11 and easy at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sanjay11: (White)
easy: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...095&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(sanjay11) -- (easy)

1. e2-e4{4} e7-e6{0}
2. d2-d4{14} d7-d5{0}
3. Nb1-c3{16} d5-e4{0}
4. Nc3-e4{14} Bc8-d7{0}
5. Ng1-f3{12} f7-f5{42}
6. Ne4-g3{16} Nb8-c6{38}
7. Bf1-c4{16} Nc6-a5{36}
8. Bc4-d3{16} Bf8-b4{20}
9. c2-c3{14} Bb4-d6{22}
10. Qd1-e2{12} g7-g6{28}
11. d4-d5{16} Qd8-e7{26}
12. b2-b4{16} e6-d5{34}
13. b4-a5{12} f5-f4{34}
14. Qe2-e7{16} Ng8-e7{36}
15. Ng3-e2{12} Ke8-g8{30}
16. Ne2-d4{16} c7-c5{28}
17. Bc1-a3{14} Rf8-f6{32}
18. Nd4-b5{14} Rf6-e6{36}
19. Ke1-d2{42} Bd7-b5{20}
20. Bd3-b5{22} a7-a6{30}
21. Bb5-d7{12} Re6-e4{30}
22. Nf3-g5{12} Re4-e5{20}
23. Ng5-e6{28} Kg8-h8{32}
24. Ra1-e1{14} Ne7-f5{30}
25. Re1-e5{16} Bd6-e5{26}
26. Ba3-c5{20} f4-f3{32}
27. g2-f3{14} Nf5-d6{32}
28. Kd2-c2{14} Nd6-c4{20}
29. Rh1-d1{50} Be5-h2{20}
30. f3-f4{16} Nc4-a5{24}
31. Rd1-h1{26} Na5-c6{34}
32. Rh1-h2{18} Kh8-g8{38}
33. Rh2-h6{14} Nc6-b8{26}
34. Bd7-c8{14} b7-b6{20}
35. Ne6-c7{18} b6-c5{28}
36. Nc7-a8{14} d5-d4{22}
37. Na8-c7{16} Nb8-c6{42}
38. Bc8-a6{16} Nc6-e7{32}
39. Ba6-c4{20} Kg8-h8{32}
40. Rh6-h1{22} h7-h5{20}
41. Nc7-e6{16} Kh8-h7{20}
42. c3-d4{12} c5-d4{26}
43. Ne6-d4{12} Kh7-g7{26}
44. a2-a4{16} Ne7-c8{20}
45. a4-a5{12} Nc8-d6{22}
46. Kc2-d3{12} Nd6-c4{24}
47. Kd3-c4{10} Kg7-h7{34}
48. a5-a6{14} Kh7-g8{34}
49. a6-a7{16} g6-g5{72}
50. Qa7-a8{Q}{12} Kg8-h7{24}
51. Rh1-h5{18} Kh7-g6{34}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sanjay11: (White)
easy: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...095&game=Chess

I saw Help Bot played 2 games after the Bug was removed But he do not
restart his computer So the Buggy applet was not replaced by newer
version. So the lost a game because of that Bug.

Whenever a bug is removced one should restart the computer so that
older version of the Applet do not run.

Now Since Easy Level gave a good fight to Rybka I will try a game with
Normal Level against Rybka. I think Normal level will play as good as
Rybka and may win 1/5 Games against Rybka.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On Feb 24, 12:34 am, Sanny wrote:

I played another game-- a Benoni. Everything
seemed "normal" again; I sort of won a pawn
(don't count 'em; just look at how my pawn is
usable while its is superfluous) but ran into
some trouble with regard to my King's safety.
The program choked its opportunities, and
next thing I know I am mopping up a won
endgame, as usual. I would say it put up a

Thats what I am looking for. Please show me the recorded game where
this happened along with the Move number and which moves are wrong and
what was the correct move at that time. If I know a mistake then only
I can ask to improve it.

Okay, I said it was a "Benoni"; that is the recent
game where GetClub had White, and the opening
moves went:

1. d4 c5

2. d5 e5

That is the Benoni defense.


Whenever you find a wrong move Just tell me the move number along with
recorded game link. As Below,

In this game, I left my King exposed to
attacks which involve the sacrifice of material;
I do not think the program was looking deeply
enough to spot my mistake, but it could have
"lucked into it" if only it had found the first
move: B-h6. Immediately afterward, I moved
my King's Rook from f8 to b8, addressing the
problem. Then the program allowed me to
pin its Queen with ...R-b1; right after that it
moved K-e2, which allowed ...Qxc2+; it put
up very little defense and I won easily.

The dumbest error was obviously K-e2, letting
me capture a pawn with check. That qualifies
as what former world champ Boris Spassky
termed a "one-move blunder". But letting me
pin the Queen with my Rook was also a big
mistake, a game-losing error.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Tonight I played another game in which the
program sacrificed a Knight for a single pawn;
there was nothing-- just retreat the attacked
piece or lose the game; GetClub decided to
lose the game; it obviously does not like to
retreat and live to fight another day... .


-- help bot

On Feb 24, 1:01*pm, help bot wrote:
On Feb 24, 12:34 am, Sanny wrote:

I played another game-- a Benoni. Everything
seemed "normal" again; I sort of won a pawn
(don't count 'em; just look at how my pawn is
usable while its is superfluous) but ran into
some trouble with regard to my King's safety.
The program choked its opportunities, and
next thing I know I am mopping up a won
endgame, as usual. *I would say it put up a

Thats what I am looking for. Please show me the recorded game where
this happened along with the Move number and which moves are wrong and
what was the correct move at that time. If I know a mistake then only
I can ask to improve it.

* Okay, I said it was a "Benoni"; that is the recent
game whereGetClubhad White, and the opening
moves went:

*1. d4 *c5

*2. d5 *e5

* *That is the Benoni defense.

Whenever you find a wrong move Just tell me the move number along with
recorded game link. As Below,

* In this game, I left my King exposed to
attacks which involve the sacrifice of material;
I do not think the program was looking deeply
enough to spot my mistake, but it could have
"lucked into it" if only it had found the first
move: B-h6. *Immediately afterward, I moved
my King's Rook from f8 to b8, addressing the
problem. *Then the program allowed me to
pin its Queen with ...R-b1; right after that it
moved K-e2, which allowed ...Qxc2+; it put
up very little defense and I won easily.

* The dumbest error was obviously K-e2, letting
me capture a pawn with check. *That qualifies
as what former world champ Boris Spassky
termed a "one-move blunder". *But letting me
pin the Queen with my Rook was also a big
mistake, a game-losing error.


There was a big bug which was removed today, To play a new game
without that bug you need to restart your computer so that latest
version of the Game is loaded into your computer and you play against
the strong version.

Here is a new game where Easy Level was able to fight till 51 moves
against Rybka.

Game Played between sanjay11 and easy at GetClub.com


---------------------------------------------------------------------------*-----
sanjay11: (White)
easy: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...095&game=Chess
---------------------------------------------------------------------------*-----


White -- Black
(sanjay11) -- (easy)


1. e2-e4{4} e7-e6{0}
2. d2-d4{14} d7-d5{0}
3. Nb1-c3{16} d5-e4{0}
4. Nc3-e4{14} Bc8-d7{0}
5. Ng1-f3{12} f7-f5{42}
6. Ne4-g3{16} Nb8-c6{38}
7. Bf1-c4{16} Nc6-a5{36}
8. Bc4-d3{16} Bf8-b4{20}
9. c2-c3{14} Bb4-d6{22}
10. Qd1-e2{12} g7-g6{28}
11. d4-d5{16} Qd8-e7{26}
12. b2-b4{16} e6-d5{34}
13. b4-a5{12} f5-f4{34}
14. Qe2-e7{16} Ng8-e7{36}
15. Ng3-e2{12} Ke8-g8{30}
16. Ne2-d4{16} c7-c5{28}
17. Bc1-a3{14} Rf8-f6{32}
18. Nd4-b5{14} Rf6-e6{36}
19. Ke1-d2{42} Bd7-b5{20}
20. Bd3-b5{22} a7-a6{30}
21. Bb5-d7{12} Re6-e4{30}
22. Nf3-g5{12} Re4-e5{20}
23. Ng5-e6{28} Kg8-h8{32}
24. Ra1-e1{14} Ne7-f5{30}
25. Re1-e5{16} Bd6-e5{26}
26. Ba3-c5{20} f4-f3{32}
27. g2-f3{14} Nf5-d6{32}
28. Kd2-c2{14} Nd6-c4{20}
29. Rh1-d1{50} Be5-h2{20}
30. f3-f4{16} Nc4-a5{24}
31. Rd1-h1{26} Na5-c6{34}
32. Rh1-h2{18} Kh8-g8{38}
33. Rh2-h6{14} Nc6-b8{26}
34. Bd7-c8{14} b7-b6{20}
35. Ne6-c7{18} b6-c5{28}
36. Nc7-a8{14} d5-d4{22}
37. Na8-c7{16} Nb8-c6{42}
38. Bc8-a6{16} Nc6-e7{32}
39. Ba6-c4{20} Kg8-h8{32}
40. Rh6-h1{22} h7-h5{20}
41. Nc7-e6{16} Kh8-h7{20}
42. c3-d4{12} c5-d4{26}
43. Ne6-d4{12} Kh7-g7{26}
44. a2-a4{16} Ne7-c8{20}
45. a4-a5{12} Nc8-d6{22}
46. Kc2-d3{12} Nd6-c4{24}
47. Kd3-c4{10} Kg7-h7{34}
48. a5-a6{14} Kh7-g8{34}
49. a6-a7{16} g6-g5{72}
50. Qa7-a8{Q}{12} Kg8-h7{24}
51. Rh1-h5{18} Kh7-g6{34}
---------------------------------------------------------------------------*-----
sanjay11: (White)
easy: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...095&game=Chess

Whenever a bug is removced one should restart the computer so that
older version of the Applet do not run.

Now Since Easy Level gave a good fight to Rybka I will try a game with
Normal Level against Rybka. I think Normal level will play as good as
Rybka and may win 1/5 Games against Rybka.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html