On Mar 23, 10:47 am, "Chess One" wrote:

**people who disagree should tell Boris Spassky their fascinating opinions.
It certainly served him against 2500-2600 players, which is probably no
inhibition to anyone reading in this newsgroup.


A crucial correction: Boris Spassky was
*not* limited in his success with the King's
Gambit to 2500-2600 players; in fact, his
most famous wins include one against
Bobby Fischer; in sum, GM Spassky
seems to have had no particular limit
whatever here.

-- help bot

On Mar 24, 1:12 am, Offramp wrote:

A subtlety often overlooked is that there is
no such thing as perfect "symmetry", as one
side or the other always has the right as well
as the obligation to move something.

And Fischer had some startling comments about symmetry.
After the moves 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 g6 3. Bg2 Bg7 4. O-O O-O
5. d3 d6 ( asymmetrical position), Fischer wrote:

'"Believe it or not", Black stands better! Now whatever White does,
Black will vary it and get an asymmetrical position and have the
superior position due to his better pawn structure!


Well, BF was a nutter. There is no way that
Black "stands better" just because White has
the move here. A more rational person might
suggest that, no matter what White does, he
cannot achieve an edge or that no matter what
White does, Black can vary and play for a win;
but only a total loon would insist that having
the move was such a handicap.

And I can prove that having the move is not
a problem; just give me *two* moves to BF's
one, and I can easily (okay, it will be a bit of
a struggle for me) draw-- maybe even win
Now that BF is dead, I can play Rybka or GM
Anand or somebody like that; heck, I'll even
let 'em have White.


-- help bot

"help bot" wrote in message
...
On Mar 23, 10:47 am, "Chess One" wrote:

**people who disagree should tell Boris Spassky their fascinating
opinions.
It certainly served him against 2500-2600 players, which is probably no
inhibition to anyone reading in this newsgroup.


A crucial correction: Boris Spassky was
*not* limited in his success with the King's
Gambit to 2500-2600 players; in fact, his
most famous wins include one against
Bobby Fischer; in sum, GM Spassky
seems to have had no particular limit
whatever here.

I am sorry, but any singular instance does not comprise any 'whatever'
statement.

Spassky's trainers told him it wouldn't work at the top level. And it
doesn't, otherwise we would see a KG at 2700 level, and we do not.

But this is to escape help-not's own point, which was to challenge the d6
pawn and d4 being the only way. Not that I personally mind a bad black King
Bishop, and etc zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Phil Innes
-- help bot

On Mar 25, 6:38 pm, "Chess One" wrote:

**people who disagree should tell Boris Spassky their fascinating
opinions.
It certainly served him against 2500-2600 players, which is probably no
inhibition to anyone reading in this newsgroup.

A crucial correction: Boris Spassky was
*not* limited in his success with the King's
Gambit to 2500-2600 players; in fact, his
most famous wins include one against
Bobby Fischer; in sum, GM Spassky
seems to have had no particular limit
whatever here.

I am sorry, but any singular instance does not comprise any 'whatever'
statement.

Who said it was a singular instance?

For those who are not lost in a fog of
ignorance, several such wins can quite
easily be located in a matter on minutes.
For instance, in addition to beating BF,
GM Spassky also nailed GM Bronstein
and GM Karpov with his King's Gambit.

The game with GM Bronstein reminded
me of the one with GM Fischer, in that
GM Spassky seemed to not be bothered
a bit by his "material shortage"; he just
played to win, which to his mind involved
direct attacks on the enemy King.


Spassky's trainers told him it wouldn't work at the top level.


This /could/ explain why the wins I
found were not from his peak years, but
from those both before and afterward.

But then, that was in a database of
"uploaded" games which is undoubtedly
far from comprehensive.


And it
doesn't, otherwise we would see a KG at 2700 level, and we do not.


The closest *win* I found was against
GM Karpov, in 1982. I did not check to
see the list of GM Spassky's losses as
White in the King's Gambit. Let's see...
World Champion Karpov was rated what
back then? 2700ish? Oh-- did I mention
that he was the world champion? LOL!



But this is to escape help-not's own point, which was to challenge the d6
pawn and d4 being the only way.


My computer examined the famous
game GM Spassky vs. GM Fischer
from 1960, and rejected our man's
commentary from MSMG, saying:

"Black was just losing the whole time!
A pawn down, some interesting
complications, but nothing *I* couldn't
handle easily. Black tossed it away
by a single tactical blunder, and White
mopped up neatly." -- Fritz


-- help bot

On Mar 24, 10:41*pm, help bot wrote:
On Mar 23, 10:21 am, wrote:

* Here, he also seems to reject so-called
hyper-modern strategy altogether, in favor of
classical.

* Utter nonsense. Ideas Behind the Chess Openings devotes 5 pages to
Alekhine's Defense (1.e4 Nf6), one page to Nimzovitch's Defense (1.e4
Nc6), 27 pages to the Nimzo-Indian (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4), 16
pages to the King's Indian and Grünfeld, and 10 pages to the Réti-
Catalan -- hypermodern openings all.

* Fella, you *really* ought to learn how to
read.

Oh, I can read just fine, Greg. Quite well enough to read between
your lines, and know that you're pulling a Parr-style "shifting
ground" ploy.

* The key term "here" clearly specified that
what was being discussed was the exact
paragraph posted here in rgc at the top of
this thread -- not the book. *LOL!

No, Greg. You were caught talking through your hat, and your hat was
shown to be nonsense.

* Just take your time, TK; we will try to
understand if you can't keep up with the
rest of us.

What an ignorant yet arrogant fool you are, Greg. Larry Parr looks
like William F. Buckley compared to you.

On Mar 25, 7:33 pm, help bot wrote:

My computer examined the famous
game GM Spassky vs. GM Fischer
from 1960, and rejected our man's
commentary from MSMG, saying:

"Black was just losing the whole time!


My mistake; I meant of course that
*White* was losing the whole game,
not Black.


-- backwards bot

On Mar 25, 8:05 pm, wrote:

The key term "here" clearly specified that
what was being discussed was the exact
paragraph posted here in rgc at the top of
this thread -- not the book. LOL!


I will add that I do not even have the
book which is imagined by TK to be
what I was discussing above. I did at
one time, long, long ago, but like all
books by GM Fine, I distanced my-
self from them upon learning of the
man's Freudian psychological issues.
;P


What an ignorant yet arrogant fool you are, Greg. Larry Parr looks
like William F. Buckley compared to you.


Was WFB a psychotic liar, too? I'm
wondering why he is being dragged into
such a comparison as this. To my mind,
Larry Parr is best compared, not to WFB
or GK, but to the famous chess player
who imagined himself plagued by flies--
at least in common anecdotes. Both
were good chess players, and both quite
batty. The other fellow you mentioned is
perhaps comparable to Max Euwe-- a
boring player who is largely forgotten; of
course, ME was somewhat stronger.


Now I may go to Wikipedia just to try
and figure out why WFB was dragged into
a simple discussion of our topmost post.
I expect to find that it's merely a red
herring, as Mr. TK has grave difficulties in
admitting his many flubs; as we know, he
can't even set the pieces up right before
whipping off an analysis (of the wrong
position).


-- help bot

On Mar 24, 10:41*pm, help bot wrote:

* The key term "here" clearly specified that
what was being discussed was the exact
paragraph posted here in rgc at the top of
this thread -- not the book. *LOL!

So then you condemn a whole book because of one paragraph! And you
condemn it because that one paragraph does not discuss the King's
Gambit, or hypermodern openings. Yet Ideas Behind the Chess Openings
*_does_* discuss those very things, at considerable length.

We are often advised not to judge a book by its cover, but our Greg
has a new method: if the first paragraph does not discuss the whole of
chess theory, the book is no good.

"help bot" wrote in message
...
On Mar 25, 6:38 pm, "Chess One" wrote:

**people who disagree should tell Boris Spassky their fascinating
opinions.
It certainly served him against 2500-2600 players, which is probably
no
inhibition to anyone reading in this newsgroup.

A crucial correction: Boris Spassky was
*not* limited in his success with the King's
Gambit to 2500-2600 players; in fact, his
most famous wins include one against
Bobby Fischer; in sum, GM Spassky
seems to have had no particular limit
whatever here.

I am sorry, but any singular instance does not comprise any 'whatever'
statement.

Who said it was a singular instance?

To take your question literarally, you did.

For those who are not lost in a fog of
ignorance, several such wins can quite
easily be located in a matter on minutes.
For instance, in addition to beating BF,
GM Spassky also nailed GM Bronstein
and GM Karpov with his King's Gambit.

Once!

The game with GM Bronstein reminded
me of the one with GM Fischer,

Which was in 1960! [Mar del Plata] where Fischer seemed to err in a
Kieseritzky with 11. ... c5?

in that
GM Spassky seemed to not be bothered
a bit by his "material shortage"; he just
played to win, which to his mind involved
direct attacks on the enemy King.

Yes - his other trademark was B x N on f6, and he made a living out of that
too.

Spassky's trainers told him it wouldn't work at the top level.


This /could/ explain why the wins I
found were not from his peak years, but
from those both before and afterward.

But then, that was in a database of
"uploaded" games which is undoubtedly
far from comprehensive.


And it
doesn't, otherwise we would see a KG at 2700 level, and we do not.


The closest *win* I found was against
GM Karpov, in 1982.

Spassky -Xie Jun, Monaco 1994 [Kieseritzky]
Spassky-Seirawan, Monpellier 1985, 1-0

I did not check to
see the list of GM Spassky's losses as
White in the King's Gambit. Let's see...
World Champion Karpov was rated what
back then? 2700ish? Oh-- did I mention
that he was the world champion? LOL!

Let you not get overexcited about half a dozen games in a carear - since
indeed if Spassky HAD felt that it was a viable opening at 2600-2700 level,
he surely would have utilised it much more.

This returns to the first point I made, and what you cite are 'surprise'
exceptions to the rule. Your list actually supports what I am saying, since
if there are half a dozen wins with the KG at tops levels, is that still as
much as 1% of Spassky's repetoire?


But this is to escape help-not's own point, which was to challenge the d6
pawn and d4 being the only way.


My computer examined the famous
game GM Spassky vs. GM Fischer
from 1960, and rejected our man's
commentary from MSMG, saying:

"Black was just losing the whole time!
A pawn down, some interesting
complications, but nothing *I* couldn't
handle easily. Black tossed it away
by a single tactical blunder, and White
mopped up neatly." -- Fritz

You should make it clearer in the first place if it is help-bot or Fritz who
is offering opinions. Both are nothing more than argumentative declarations.
Only Greg Kennedy can have an understanding of what he himself knows of
chess ~ and let that be a lesson to you about your psychological use of a
persona ~ one which has been refuted recently by the entire newsgroup on
chess understanding and chess history.

Phil Innes


-- help bot

On Mar 26, 8:50*am, "Chess One" wrote:
"help bot" wrote in message

...





On Mar 25, 6:38 pm, "Chess One" wrote:

**people who disagree should tell Boris Spassky their fascinating
opinions.
It certainly served him against 2500-2600 players, which is probably
no
inhibition to anyone reading in this newsgroup.

*A crucial correction: Boris Spassky was
*not* limited in his success with the King's
Gambit to 2500-2600 players; in fact, his
most famous wins include one against
Bobby Fischer; in sum, GM Spassky
seems to have had no particular limit
whatever here.

I am sorry, but any singular instance does not comprise any 'whatever'
statement.

*Who said it was a singular instance?

To take your question literarally, you did.

*For those who are not lost in a fog of
ignorance, several such wins can quite
easily be located in a matter on minutes.
For instance, in addition to beating BF,
GM Spassky also nailed GM Bronstein
and GM Karpov with his King's Gambit.

Once!

*The game with GM Bronstein reminded
me of the one with GM Fischer,

Which was in 1960! [Mar del Plata] where Fischer seemed to err in a
Kieseritzky with 11. ... c5?

in that
GM Spassky seemed to not be bothered
a bit by his "material shortage"; he just
played to win, which to his mind involved
direct attacks on the enemy King.

Yes - his other trademark was B x N on f6, and he made a living out of that
too.





Spassky's trainers told him it wouldn't work at the top level.

*This /could/ explain why the wins I
found were not from his peak years, but
from those both before and afterward.

*But then, that was in a database of
"uploaded" games which is undoubtedly
far from comprehensive.

And it
doesn't, otherwise we would see a KG at 2700 level, and we do not.

*The closest *win* I found was against
GM Karpov, in 1982.

Spassky -Xie Jun, Monaco 1994 [Kieseritzky]
Spassky-Seirawan, Monpellier 1985, 1-0

*I did not check to
see the list of GM Spassky's losses as
White in the King's Gambit. *Let's see...
World Champion Karpov was rated what
back then? *2700ish? *Oh-- did I mention
that he was the world champion? *LOL!

Let you not get overexcited about half a dozen games in a carear - since
indeed if Spassky HAD felt that it was a viable opening at 2600-2700 level,
he surely would have utilised it much more.

This returns to the first point I made, and what you cite are 'surprise'
exceptions to the rule. Your list actually supports what I am saying, since
if there are half a dozen wins with the KG at tops levels, is that still as
much as 1% of Spassky's repetoire?







But this is to escape help-not's own point, which was to challenge the d6
pawn and d4 being the only way.

*My computer examined the famous
game GM Spassky vs. GM Fischer
from 1960, and rejected our man's
commentary from MSMG, saying:

"Black was just losing the whole time!
A pawn down, some interesting
complications, but nothing *I* couldn't
handle easily. *Black tossed it away
by a single tactical blunder, and White
mopped up neatly." *-- Fritz

You should make it clearer in the first place if it is help-bot or Fritz who
is offering opinions. Both are nothing more than argumentative declarations.
Only Greg Kennedy can have an understanding of what he himself knows of
chess ~ and let that be a lesson to you about your psychological use of a
persona ~ one which has been refuted recently by the entire newsgroup on
chess understanding and chess history.

Phil Innes

To inject some statistics into this discussion, here is a list of
all games on the CB Megadatabase 2005 in which Spassky played the
King's Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.f4) as White. I give the name of his
opponent, the event and date, the result, and the number of moves:

Averbakh, 22nd USSR Ch, Moscow 1955 1-0, 29
Bronstein, 27th USSR Ch, Leningrad 1960 1-0, 23
Y. Sakharov, 27th USSR Ch, Leningrad 1960 1-0, 30
Liberzon, 27th USSR Ch, Leningrad 1960 ½-½, 34
P. Gibbs, event? 1960 1-0, 25
P. Tumurbator, event? 1960, 1-0 37
Fischer, Mar del Plata 1960, 1-0, 29
Najdorf, Varna Olympiad 1962, ½-½, 27
Limbos, Varna Olympiad 1962, 1-0, 37
Novopashin, 30th USSR Ch, Yerevan 1962,½-½, 21
Matanovic, Belgrade 1964, ½-½, 41
Krogius, Chigorin Memorial 1964, ½-½, 45
Kholmov, 31st USSR Ch playoff, 1964, 1-0, 25
Portisch, Budapest 1967, 1-0, 56
Bronstein, Moscow 1971, ½-½, 18
Ornstein, Nice Olympiad 1974, ½-½, 74
Pytel, Nice Olympiad 1974, 1-0, 39
Karpov, exhibition, Hamburg, 1982, 1-0, 84
Hermann, Bundesliga, 1985, 1-0, 31
Rivas Pastor, Linares 1985, ½-½, 13
Seirawan, Candidates Tournament 1985, 1-0, 32
Susan Polgar, Wellington 1988, 1-0, 42
J. Martinez, Oviedo rapid 1991, 1-0, 25
A. David, France, 1993, ½-½, 60
Xie Jun, Veterans-vs-Women 1994, ½-½, 25
Korchnoi, St. Petersburg rapid 1999, ½-½, 34
Fressinet, France, 2001, ½-½, 23
Adamapoulos, simul, Kalamata, 2002, ½-½, 14

This is an overall record of +15 -0 =13. Surprising to me that
Spassky seems never to have lost with the KG in serious play. And his
opponents include Averbakh, Bronstein, Fischer, Najdorf, Kholmov,
Portisch, Seirawan and Korchnoi, all-time greats every one.