Below is a decent game, But in the end Help Bot was a pawn ahead. I
found at move 17... Nf6xe4 Help Bot took the Pawn. Was there any way
for Normal Level to save that Pawn, As all moves were forced moves.

Game Played between help bot and normal at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
normal: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...732&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(normal) -- (help bot)

1. d2-d4{0} d7-d6{14}
2. Qd1-d3{138} g7-g6{52}
3. d4-d5{116} Bf8-g7{24}
4. Nb1-c3{92} Ng8-f6{46}
5. Ng1-f3{84} Ke8-g8{10}
6. e2-e4{180} c7-c5{112}
7. Bf1-e2{200} Nb8-a6{46}
8. Ke1-g1{82} Na6-c7{88}
9. h2-h3{158} Ra8-b8{64}
10. Bc1-e3{252} b7-b5{28}
11. a2-a3{224} a7-a5{140}
12. Ra1-a2{84} Bc8-d7{208}
13. Nf3-g5{278} b5-b4{22}
14. Nc3-b1{136} Bd7-b5{102}
15. Qd3-d1{84} h7-h6{26}
16. Be2-b5{80} Nc7-b5{22}
17. Ng5-f3{114} Nf6-e4{20}
18. Qd1-d3{158} Ne4-f6{28}
19. c2-c4{206} Nb5-c7{44}
20. b2-b3{132} Rb8-a8{36}
21. Be3-f4{192} Qd8-d7{60}
22. Ra2-e2{132} Rf8-e8{58}
23. Rf1-e1{112} Nc7-a6{54}
24. Re2-e3{158} Ra8-a7{64}
25. a3-a4{158} Na6-c7{38}
26. Re1-e2{168} Nc7-a8{12}
27. Nb1-d2{98} Na8-b6{32}
28. g2-g4{158} h6-h5{66}
29. g4-g5{84} Nf6-h7{26}
30. h3-h4{114} Nh7-f8{68}
31. Nd2-e4{88} Ra7-a8{114}
32. Ne4-g3{90} Ra8-d8{66}
33. Re3-e4{86} e7-e5{110}
34. d5-e6{114} Re8-e6{48}
35. Re2-d2{142} d6-d5{40}
36. c4-d5{124} Nb6-d5{62}
37. Bf4-e5{90} Nd5-c3{34}
38. Qd3-d7{118} Rd8-d7{10}
39. Be5-c3{132} Bg7-c3{40}
40. Rd2-d7{96} Nf8-d7{10}
41. Re4-e6{138} f7-e6{8}
42. Ng3-e4{138} Bc3-g7{158}
43. Nf3-d2{110} Bg7-e5{68}
44. Nd2-c4{82} Be5-c7{20}
45. f2-f3{102} Kg8-f8{78}
46. Nc4-b2{102} Kf8-e7{138}
47. Kg1-f2{156} e6-e5{6}
48. Nb2-d3{82} c5-c4{156}
49. b3-c4{154} Nd7-f8{192}
50. Kf2-e3{140} Nf8-e6{62}
51. Ne4-f6{92} Bc7-d6{210}
52. Ke3-e4{92} Ne6-c5{142}
53. Nd3-c5{102} Bd6-c5{6}
54. Ke4-e5{82} b4-b3{36}
55. Nf6-d5{122} Ke7-f7{44}
56. Nd5-c3{130} b3-b2{38}
57. f3-f4{158} Bc5-f2{74}
58. Nc3-b1{134} Bf2-h4{54}
59. c4-c5{190} Bh4-f2{92}
60. c5-c6{90} Bf2-b6{16}
61. Ke5-d6{108} h5-h4{24}
62. f4-f5{216} g6-f5{30}
63. Kd6-d7{114} h4-h3{20}
64. g5-g6{106} Kf7-g6{20}
65. Kd7-e6{88} h3-h2{30}
66. c6-c7{160} Bb6-c7{18}
67. Ke6-d7{86} Qh2-h1(Q)
68. Nb1-c3(100) Pf5-f4(34)
69. Nc3-b5(192) Qb2-b1(Q)
70. Kd7-c7(166)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
normal: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...732&game=Chess

Which are the moves you think GetClub had played wrongly and Why?

Help Bot was thinking 1-2 min / move So it was a Serious Game by Help
Bot and not a rapid game.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

These days Help Bot was easily winning against the normal Level. and
even once won against advance level.

While 2 weeks back he was beaten by even Beginner Level So There was a
Big Bug which was Overprotecting the King.

And it was giving out its pieces for slight protection of the King.
Now that Bug has been Corrected and Help Bot will get fierce
competition against the Beginner & Easy Levels.

So I suggest Help Bot to play with Beginner Level first instead of
Advance Level as the game will play much stronger now since the Bug
has been Removed.


Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On Apr 27, 1:57 am, Sanny wrote:

Below is a decent game, But in the end Help Bot was a pawn ahead. I
found at move 17... Nf6xe4 Help Bot took the Pawn. Was there any way
for Normal Level to save that Pawn, As all moves were forced moves.

Game Played between help bot and normal at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
normal: (White)
Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...732&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(normal) -- (help bot)

1. d2-d4{0} d7-d6{14}
2. Qd1-d3{138} g7-g6{52}


The Queen should not be "developed" before the
minor pieces without good reason. Sooner or later,
she will come under fire and be forced to retreat,
at a loss of time.


3. d4-d5{116} Bf8-g7{24}
4. Nb1-c3{92} Ng8-f6{46}
5. Ng1-f3{84} Ke8-g8{10}
6. e2-e4{180} c7-c5{112}
7. Bf1-e2{200} Nb8-a6{46}
8. Ke1-g1{82} Na6-c7{88}
9. h2-h3{158} Ra8-b8{64}
10. Bc1-e3{252} b7-b5{28}
11. a2-a3{224} a7-a5{140}
12. Ra1-a2{84} Bc8-d7{208}


The program often plays its Rooks to stupid
squares, as it did here. (If there is a tactical
problem with the pawn on b2, it should be
covered some other way.)


13. Nf3-g5{278} b5-b4{22}


This is where the program hung a pawn to a very
simple combination.


14. Nc3-b1{136} Bd7-b5{102}
15. Qd3-d1{84} h7-h6{26}
16. Be2-b5{80} Nc7-b5{22}
17. Ng5-f3{114} Nf6-e4{20}
18. Qd1-d3{158} Ne4-f6{28}
19. c2-c4{206} Nb5-c7{44}
20. b2-b3{132} Rb8-a8{36}
21. Be3-f4{192} Qd8-d7{60}
22. Ra2-e2{132} Rf8-e8{58}
23. Rf1-e1{112} Nc7-a6{54}


My computer thinks I threw away my advantage
with all these crazy Knight moves, but I see that
I still have a pawn more, regardless.


24. Re2-e3{158} Ra8-a7{64}
25. a3-a4{158} Na6-c7{38}
26. Re1-e2{168} Nc7-a8{12}
27. Nb1-d2{98} Na8-b6{32}
28. g2-g4{158} h6-h5{66}
29. g4-g5{84} Nf6-h7{26}
30. h3-h4{114} Nh7-f8{68}
31. Nd2-e4{88} Ra7-a8{114}
32. Ne4-g3{90} Ra8-d8{66}
33. Re3-e4{86} e7-e5{110}
34. d5-e6{114} Re8-e6{48}


Capturing on e6 was unwise, for it opens things
up for me-- the guy with the extra pawn. Better
to sit back and make me find some way to make
headway on my own.


35. Re2-d2{142} d6-d5{40}
36. c4-d5{124} Nb6-d5{62}
37. Bf4-e5{90} Nd5-c3{34}
38. Qd3-d7{118} Rd8-d7{10}
39. Be5-c3{132} Bg7-c3{40}


Here my computer thinks I was winning outright
if I had recaptured on c3 with the pawn-- creating
a very dangerous far-advanced passer. I saw it
as a potential weakness, possibly getting gobbled
up by the White King many moves hence.


40. Rd2-d7{96} Nf8-d7{10}
41. Re4-e6{138} f7-e6{8}
42. Ng3-e4{138} Bc3-g7{158}
43. Nf3-d2{110} Bg7-e5{68}
44. Nd2-c4{82} Be5-c7{20}
45. f2-f3{102} Kg8-f8{78}


Instead of p-f3, simply bring the King forward.


46. Nc4-b2{102} Kf8-e7{138}
47. Kg1-f2{156} e6-e5{6}


This was very bad for me, as the pawn now sits
on a square (e5) I needed for my pieces. I was
having some trouble making headway, without
hanging a pawn to some funky Knight-fork. I did
not see a simple trick: after ...Ne5 (somewhere
around here), my pawns are all protected from
capture by various pins or forks, before or after
any exchanges.


48. Nb2-d3{82} c5-c4{156}
49. b3-c4{154} Nd7-f8{192}
50. Kf2-e3{140} Nf8-e6{62}
51. Ne4-f6{92} Bc7-d6{210}
52. Ke3-e4{92} Ne6-c5{142}


The King cannot come forward like this, because
a trade of pieces on c5 leaves Black with just two
pieces remaining-- one of which is forever tied to
watching the passed pawn on b3. General Zhou:
you stand here and just watch that nasty pawn; I
will take my men and win the war all by myself?!


53. Nd3-c5{102} Bd6-c5{6}
54. Ke4-e5{82} b4-b3{36}
55. Nf6-d5{122} Ke7-f7{44}
56. Nd5-c3{130} b3-b2{38}
57. f3-f4{158} Bc5-f2{74}
58. Nc3-b1{134} Bf2-h4{54}
59. c4-c5{190} Bh4-f2{92}
60. c5-c6{90} Bf2-b6{16}
61. Ke5-d6{108} h5-h4{24}
62. f4-f5{216} g6-f5{30}
63. Kd6-d7{114} h4-h3{20}
64. g5-g6{106} Kf7-g6{20}
65. Kd7-e6{88} h3-h2{30}
66. c6-c7{160} Bb6-c7{18}
67. Ke6-d7{86} Qh2-h1(Q)
68. Nb1-c3(100) Pf5-f4(34)
69. Nc3-b5(192) Qb2-b1(Q)
70. Kd7-c7(166)


Hey, hey-- the program sees a checkmate
coming long before I can, these days! It stopped
the game here.


-- help bot

* Hey, hey-- the program sees a checkmate
coming long before I can, these days! *It stopped
the game here.

Yes, It is Master Level and sees Mate in 8 Moves or about 16 ply deep.

When this game was played there was a bug that have been removed now,
Let me know how you face it now.

I saw the game where it was drawn as you had only 2 Bishops left.

Game Played between help bot and master at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
master: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...867&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(help bot) -- (master)

1. f2-f4{12} d7-d5{356}
2. g2-g3{54} Ng8-f6{894}
3. Bf1-g2{28} Nb8-c6{516}
4. Ng1-f3{74} Nf6-g4{520}
5. Ke1-g1{134} g7-g6{380}
6. h2-h3{114} Ng4-f6{450}
7. d2-d3{62} Bf8-g7{598}
8. Qd1-e1{210} Ke8-g8{384}
9. c2-c3{162} Qd8-d6{420}
10. e2-e4{150} d5-e4{438}
11. d3-e4{16} Qd6-d3{386}
12. e4-e5{202} Nf6-e4{446}
13. Nb1-d2{56} Bc8-f5{324}
14. g3-g4{530} Ne4-d2{324}
15. Qe1-d2{40} Bf5-e4{658}
16. Qd2-d3{38} Be4-d3{668}
17. Rf1-d1{24} Bd3-e2{670}
18. Rd1-e1{336} Be2-f3{356}
19. Bg2-f3{6} Ra8-d8{336}
20. Bc1-e3{568} Rd8-d3{360}
21. Ra1-d1{64} Rd3-d1{494}
22. Re1-d1{18} Rf8-d8{500}
23. Rd1-d8{34} Nc6-d8{666}
24. Be3-a7{64} b7-b6{332}
25. Ba7-b8{146} Nd8-e6{388}
26. f4-f5{70} Ne6-g5{542}
27. Bf3-g2{84} Bg7-e5{412}
28. h3-h4{44} g6-f5{484}
29. h4-g5{20} f5-g4{322}
30. a2-a4{42} h7-h5{328}
31. g5-h6{46} Kg8-h7{556}
32. b2-b4{48} Kh7-h6{344}
33. a4-a5{30} b6-a5{1208}
34. b4-a5{8} Be5-c3{672}
35. Bb8-c7{32} f7-f5{1200}
36. a5-a6{62} Bc3-d4{634}
37. Kg1-f1{42} Kh6-g5{430}
38. Bc7-b8{30} Bd4-e3{408}
39. a6-a7{32} Be3-a7{670}
40. Bb8-a7{6} f5-f4{368}
41. Bg2-e4{36} e7-e5{980}
42. Ba7-b6{76} Kg5-f6{346}
43. Kf1-e2{76} Kf6-f7{522}
44. Be4-f5{34} g4-g3{452}
45. Bf5-e4{88} Kf7-e7{414}
46. Bb6-c5{30} Ke7-f6{628}
47. Bc5-d6{42} Kf6-e6{474}
48. Bd6-c7{46} Ke6-f6{642}
49. Ke2-f3{24} Kf6-e6{662}
50. Kf3-g4{16} Ke6-f6{336}
51. Be4-d5{36} f4-f3{374}
52. Kg4-g3{36} Kf6-f5{612}
53. Kg3-f3{18} e5-e4{486}
54. Kf3-e3{40} Kf5-g6{402}
55. Ke3-e4{22}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
master: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...867&game=Chess

How do you think the Game is playing against you?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On Apr 30, 2:50 am, Sanny wrote:

Hey, hey-- the program sees a checkmate
coming long before I can, these days! It stopped
the game here.

Yes, It is Master Level and sees Mate in 8 Moves or about 16 ply deep.

When this game was played there was a bug that have been removed now,
Let me know how you face it now.


I "face it now" by trading down to an elementary win,
only to have the game wrongly adjudicated as a draw
because somebody at GetClub doesn't know much
about chess. :D


KBB vs. K is a forced win, just like KR vs. K is.



-- help bot




I saw the game where it was drawn as you had only 2 Bishops left.

Game Played between help bot and master at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
master: (Black)
Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...867&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(help bot) -- (master)

1. f2-f4{12} d7-d5{356}
2. g2-g3{54} Ng8-f6{894}
3. Bf1-g2{28} Nb8-c6{516}
4. Ng1-f3{74} Nf6-g4{520}
5. Ke1-g1{134} g7-g6{380}
6. h2-h3{114} Ng4-f6{450}
7. d2-d3{62} Bf8-g7{598}
8. Qd1-e1{210} Ke8-g8{384}
9. c2-c3{162} Qd8-d6{420}
10. e2-e4{150} d5-e4{438}
11. d3-e4{16} Qd6-d3{386}
12. e4-e5{202} Nf6-e4{446}
13. Nb1-d2{56} Bc8-f5{324}
14. g3-g4{530} Ne4-d2{324}
15. Qe1-d2{40} Bf5-e4{658}
16. Qd2-d3{38} Be4-d3{668}
17. Rf1-d1{24} Bd3-e2{670}
18. Rd1-e1{336} Be2-f3{356}
19. Bg2-f3{6} Ra8-d8{336}
20. Bc1-e3{568} Rd8-d3{360}
21. Ra1-d1{64} Rd3-d1{494}
22. Re1-d1{18} Rf8-d8{500}
23. Rd1-d8{34} Nc6-d8{666}
24. Be3-a7{64} b7-b6{332}
25. Ba7-b8{146} Nd8-e6{388}
26. f4-f5{70} Ne6-g5{542}
27. Bf3-g2{84} Bg7-e5{412}
28. h3-h4{44} g6-f5{484}
29. h4-g5{20} f5-g4{322}
30. a2-a4{42} h7-h5{328}
31. g5-h6{46} Kg8-h7{556}
32. b2-b4{48} Kh7-h6{344}
33. a4-a5{30} b6-a5{1208}
34. b4-a5{8} Be5-c3{672}
35. Bb8-c7{32} f7-f5{1200}
36. a5-a6{62} Bc3-d4{634}
37. Kg1-f1{42} Kh6-g5{430}
38. Bc7-b8{30} Bd4-e3{408}
39. a6-a7{32} Be3-a7{670}
40. Bb8-a7{6} f5-f4{368}
41. Bg2-e4{36} e7-e5{980}
42. Ba7-b6{76} Kg5-f6{346}
43. Kf1-e2{76} Kf6-f7{522}
44. Be4-f5{34} g4-g3{452}
45. Bf5-e4{88} Kf7-e7{414}
46. Bb6-c5{30} Ke7-f6{628}
47. Bc5-d6{42} Kf6-e6{474}
48. Bd6-c7{46} Ke6-f6{642}
49. Ke2-f3{24} Kf6-e6{662}
50. Kf3-g4{16} Ke6-f6{336}
51. Be4-d5{36} f4-f3{374}
52. Kg4-g3{36} Kf6-f5{612}
53. Kg3-f3{18} e5-e4{486}
54. Kf3-e3{40} Kf5-g6{402}
55. Ke3-e4{22}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
master: (Black)
Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...867&game=Chess

How do you think the Game is playing against you?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

* I "face it now" by trading down to an elementary win,
only to have the game wrongly adjudicated as a draw
because somebody atGetClubdoesn't know much
aboutchess. *:D

* KBB vs. K is a forced win, just like KR vs. K is.

I know KBB vs K is forced win.

But when Computer has 2 Bishops extra and it will never be able to
find a win. So the game will never end.

I has giving these cases as Draw.

KBB vs K

KNN vs K

KNB vs K

KB vs K

KN vs K

KN vs KB

KN vs KR

KB vs KR

In all above cases game will end in a draw.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

On May 1, 1:22 am, Sanny wrote:

I "face it now" by trading down to an elementary win,
only to have the game wrongly adjudicated as a draw
because somebody atGetClubdoesn't know much
aboutchess. :D

KBB vs. K is a forced win, just like KR vs. K is.

I know KBB vs K is forced win.

But when Computer has 2 Bishops extra and it will never be able to
find a win. So the game will never end.


Ah, but it wasn't the GetClub program which had
the two Bishops; it was *me*.

Generally speaking, I can mate with a K&Q very
quickly and easily. With K&R just as easily, but
it may take a little longer. With KBB I have to
work more, to coordinate three men instead of
only two. But all of these are elementary wins,
even for me.

However, I will admit that with KBN, there is a
chance I could overstep the fifty moves rule, *if*
the program is an excellent defender. Another
theoretical win which I cannot always prevail in
would be K&Q vs. K&R-- if the program is
using the endgame table-bases.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Now, let me ask you honestly: why is it that
in every instance where something like this
happens, the result is slanted in favor of the
GetClub program-- and never the other way?
The answer is obvious: you cheat.

When mere incompetence is the problem,
the results are *random*, favoring either side
in no particular pattern. At GetClub, the
result is always a free win or draw for your
program. Just look at the reported win/loss
record for "help bot" and "nomorechess", for
instance: *numerous* losses and draws
which were in reality, not lost or drawn at all.
Yet I cannot think of a single case where I
was "given" a free win, in a losing position.
Coincidence? Not hardly.


-- help bot

help bot wrote:
On Apr 30, 2:50 am, Sanny wrote:

Hey, hey-- the program sees a checkmate
coming long before I can, these days! It stopped
the game here.
Yes, It is Master Level and sees Mate in 8 Moves or about 16 ply deep.

When this game was played there was a bug that have been removed now,
Let me know how you face it now.


I "face it now" by trading down to an elementary win,
only to have the game wrongly adjudicated as a draw
because somebody at GetClub doesn't know much
about chess. :D


KBB vs. K is a forced win, just like KR vs. K is.

Provided that the bishops are of opposite colours.

I expect it would almost be a helpmate too given Getclubs tendency to
have its king cowering in one corner of the board.

Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Sanny wrote:
I "face it now" by trading down to an elementary win,
only to have the game wrongly adjudicated as a draw
because somebody atGetClubdoesn't know much
aboutchess. :D

KBB vs. K is a forced win, just like KR vs. K is.

I know KBB vs K is forced win.

But when Computer has 2 Bishops extra and it will never be able to
find a win. So the game will never end.

If it is the computer with the extra material then it has to offer a
draw because it doesn't know how to win. But it cannot claim a draw
against a human opponent with that same extra material just because it
doesn't know how to win. You could always add tablebases to sort this
out onces and for all.

Or a few extra heuristics in the evaluation when the number of pieces on
the board are 5 or less and special cases for Kxx against lone K.
KBBk and KBNk are probably the most important gaps here. KNNNk although
a theoretical win requires a perverse set of circumstances to arise in
real play.

I has giving these cases as Draw.

KBB vs K

KNB vs K

But these are both mostly clear wins for a half decent human player
against any defence. They would be a routine win against Getclub because
it has no understanding of how the mating net is constructed.


KNN vs K

KB vs K

KN vs K

KN vs KB

KN vs KR

KB vs KR

In all above cases game will end in a draw.

Generally true except in the KR case where there may sometimes be a pin,
check or forced move that results in the capture of the N or B (which is
worth looking for before declaring it drawn). Reducing to KRk.

Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

* When mere incompetence is the problem,
the results are *random*, favoring either side
in no particular pattern. *AtGetClub, the
result is always a free win or draw for your
program. *Just look at the reported win/loss

Ok what about.

1. Humans can take as much time as needed?
2. Human can take help of Opening Books?
3. Humans can take help from other Chess Computers?

So Humans have a lot of opportunity to cheat the poor GetClub Program.

If you win the game with good margin it will never be able to cheat
you. Only when the game ends in a Draw It can take little Benefit.

It will only devlare a difficult drawish game to a Draw. And with Draw
games you do not loose Ratings.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html