"Alekhine's Parrot" (that quacking fowl Phil Innes) writes at the
_Chessville Weekly_:

"Coming up later this Year – Strongest ever US Tournament.

"September 19th to 28th sees a [so far] Category 15 tournament on US
soil in the 10 player SPICE CUP. Seven of the 10 invitees have
already signed up, and I understand average Elo is currently 2600."


Question: Is it really plausible to claim that this tournament is/will
be stronger than New York 1927, or the 1st and 2nd Piatigorsky Cups?
("Highest category" would be correct, but that's not what he wrote.)

On Mon, 12 May 2008 15:54:34 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


Question: Is it really plausible to claim that this tournament is/will
be stronger than New York 1927, or the 1st and 2nd Piatigorsky Cups?
("Highest category" would be correct, but that's not what he wrote.)

Precise language from Phil? That would indeed be anomalous.

wrote in message
...
"Alekhine's Parrot" (that quacking fowl Phil Innes) writes at the
_Chessville Weekly_:

"Coming up later this Year – Strongest ever US Tournament.

"September 19th to 28th sees a [so far] Category 15 tournament on US
soil in the 10 player SPICE CUP. Seven of the 10 invitees have
already signed up, and I understand average Elo is currently 2600."


Question: Is it really plausible to claim that this tournament is/will
be stronger than New York 1927, or the 1st and 2nd Piatigorsky Cups?
("Highest category" would be correct, but that's not what he wrote.)

---

Important News!

John Hillery thinks that any group of 10 US Players circa 1927 //averaged//
2600 ratings. ))))))

[quite apart from the fact that no ratings existed, even as retrofitted
numbers against other players in the world, that is some might claim!]

Sometimes I don't know where his talents begin - somewhere on the Yellow
Brick Road? Anyway, now we know what the JKH definition of 'plausible' is.
It is indeed possible that he thinks 1927 players could average 2600, and
that is enough to write into these newsgroups, with disparaging comments
like a newbie or a follower of clan-Murray.

As a journalist, surely John Hillery will want to substatiate his point by
mentioning even one fact; for example, a list of 10 players he proposes to
average 2600 from 1927, would seem to me to be a minimum proposition on his
part in order to be plausible.

Phil Innes

On May 15, 8:06*am, "Chess One" wrote:
wrote in message

...
"Alekhine's Parrot" (that quacking fowl Phil Innes) writes at the
_Chessville Weekly_:

"Coming up later this Year – Strongest ever US Tournament.

"September 19th to 28th sees a [so far] Category 15 tournament on US
soil in the 10 player SPICE CUP. *Seven of the 10 invitees have
already signed up, and I understand average Elo is currently 2600."

Question: Is it really plausible to claim that this tournament is/will
be stronger than New York 1927, or the 1st and 2nd Piatigorsky Cups?
("Highest category" would be correct, but that's not what he wrote.)

---

* * Important News!

John Hillery thinks that any group of 10 US Players circa 1927 //averaged//
2600 ratings. * ))))))

That is not what he is saying, Phil. By "US tournament," he clearly
means "a chess tournament played on US soil," and not "a tournament
limited to US citizens." The three events he refers to: New York 1927,
and the two Piatigorsky Cups (Los Angeles 1963 and Santa Monica 1966),
had only one or two American players each, out of six to 10 total
contestants.

[quite apart from the fact that no ratings existed, even as retrofitted
numbers against other players in the world, that is some might claim!]

Sometimes I don't know where his talents begin - somewhere on the Yellow
Brick Road? Anyway, now we know what the JKH definition of 'plausible' is.
It is indeed possible that he thinks 1927 players could average 2600, and
that is enough to write into these newsgroups, with disparaging comments
like a newbie or a follower of clan-Murray.

As a journalist, surely John Hillery will want to substatiate his point by
mentioning even one fact; for example, a list of 10 players he proposes to
average 2600 from 1927, would seem to me to be a minimum proposition on his
part in order to be plausible.

Here are the contestants at New York 1927, with their 5-year peak
ratings as given by Dr. Elo in his book:

Capablanca: 2725
Alekhine: 2690
Nimzovitch: 2615
Vidmar: 2600
Spielmann: 2560
Marshall: 2570

That's an average of 2627, which would nudge it just into Category
16 (Elo 2626-2650). Probably a pretty reasonable estimate, perhaps a
mite high -- with the exception of the oldest player, Marshall, these
masters were all at or near their time of peak performance. So it's
quite plausible to suggest that New York 1927 might be the strongest
tournament ever held on US soil. It certainly was the the strongest up
to that time.
Checking the list of "the world's strongest tournaments" in Fox &
James' "The Even More Complete Chess Addict" (Faber and Faber, 1993),
we do indeed find NY 1927, and the two Piatigorsky Cups, given as the
strongest American events, all at an estimated Category 15
(2601-2625).

If this Spice Cup tournament surpasses them, it will be quite a
prestigious event.

On May 15, 10:17*am, wrote:
On May 15, 8:06*am, "Chess One" wrote:





wrote in message

...
"Alekhine's Parrot" (that quacking fowl Phil Innes) writes at the
_Chessville Weekly_:

"Coming up later this Year – Strongest ever US Tournament.

"September 19th to 28th sees a [so far] Category 15 tournament on US
soil in the 10 player SPICE CUP. *Seven of the 10 invitees have
already signed up, and I understand average Elo is currently 2600."

Question: Is it really plausible to claim that this tournament is/will
be stronger than New York 1927, or the 1st and 2nd Piatigorsky Cups?
("Highest category" would be correct, but that's not what he wrote.)

---

* * Important News!

John Hillery thinks that any group of 10 US Players circa 1927 //averaged//
2600 ratings. * ))))))

* That is not what he is saying, Phil. By "US tournament," he clearly
means "a chess tournament played on US soil," and not "a tournament
limited to US citizens." The three events he refers to: New York 1927,
and the two Piatigorsky Cups (Los Angeles 1963 and Santa Monica 1966),
had only one or two American players each, out of six to 10 total
contestants.

[quite apart from the fact that no ratings existed, even as retrofitted
numbers against other players in the world, that is some might claim!]

Sometimes I don't know where his talents begin - somewhere on the Yellow
Brick Road? Anyway, now we know what the JKH definition of 'plausible' is.
It is indeed possible that he thinks 1927 players could average 2600, and
that is enough to write into these newsgroups, with disparaging comments
like a newbie or a follower of clan-Murray.

As a journalist, surely John Hillery will want to substatiate his point by
mentioning even one fact; for example, a list of 10 players he proposes to
average 2600 from 1927, would seem to me to be a minimum proposition on his
part in order to be plausible.

* Here are the contestants at New York 1927, with their 5-year peak
ratings as given by Dr. Elo in his book:

Capablanca: *2725
Alekhine: * * * *2690
Nimzovitch: * *2615
Vidmar: * * * * *2600
Spielmann: * *2560
Marshall: * * * *2570

* That's an average of 2627, which would nudge it just into Category
16 (Elo 2626-2650). Probably a pretty reasonable estimate, perhaps a
mite high -- with the exception of the oldest player, Marshall, these
masters were all at or near their time of peak performance. So it's
quite plausible to suggest that New York 1927 might be the strongest
tournament ever held on US soil. It certainly was the the strongest up
to that time.
* Checking the list of "the world's strongest tournaments" in Fox &
James' "The Even More Complete Chess Addict" (Faber and Faber, 1993),
we do indeed find NY 1927, and the two Piatigorsky Cups, given as the
strongest American events, all at an estimated Category 15
(2601-2625).

* If this Spice Cup tournament surpasses them, it will be quite a
prestigious event.

Just for the sake of fuller information, here are the Patigorsky Cup
contestants, and their 5-year peak Elo ratings (or Jan 1978 rating
where Elo does not give a 5-year peak):

1963:

Keres 2670
Petrosian 2680
Najdorf 2635
Olafsson 2530 (as of 1/1/1978)
Reshevsky 2680
Gligoric 2620
Benko 2570
Panno 2580 (1/1/1978)

1966:

Spassky 2680
Fischer 2780 (1/11978)
Larsen 2620 (1/1/1978)
Portisch 2630 (1/1/1978)
Unzicker 2590
Petrosian 2680
Reshevsky 2680
Najdorf 2635
Ivkov 2570
Donner 2500

wrote in message
...
On May 15, 8:06 am, "Chess One" wrote:
wrote in message

...
"Alekhine's Parrot" (that quacking fowl Phil Innes) writes at the
_Chessville Weekly_:

"Coming up later this Year – Strongest ever US Tournament.

"September 19th to 28th sees a [so far] Category 15 tournament on US
soil in the 10 player SPICE CUP. Seven of the 10 invitees have
already signed up, and I understand average Elo is currently 2600."

Question: Is it really plausible to claim that this tournament is/will
be stronger than New York 1927, or the 1st and 2nd Piatigorsky Cups?
("Highest category" would be correct, but that's not what he wrote.)

---

Important News!

John Hillery thinks that any group of 10 US Players circa 1927
//averaged//
2600 ratings. ))))))

That is not what he is saying, Phil.

**What is he saying Taylor?

By "US tournament," he clearly
means "a chess tournament played on US soil," and not "a tournament
limited to US citizens."


**I see. Not to soil the citizens? And this is clear? Well... let him
protest it then. I think the context I provided was sufficiently clear, and
not some Kasparov v Anand affair in the 2 towers.

The three events he refers to: New York 1927,
and the two Piatigorsky Cups (Los Angeles 1963 and Santa Monica 1966),
had only one or two American players each, out of six to 10 total
contestants.

**I see what you say he sees.

[quite apart from the fact that no ratings existed, even as retrofitted
numbers against other players in the world, that is some might claim!]

Sometimes I don't know where his talents begin - somewhere on the Yellow
Brick Road? Anyway, now we know what the JKH definition of 'plausible' is.
It is indeed possible that he thinks 1927 players could average 2600, and
that is enough to write into these newsgroups, with disparaging comments
like a newbie or a follower of clan-Murray.

As a journalist, surely John Hillery will want to substatiate his point by
mentioning even one fact; for example, a list of 10 players he proposes to
average 2600 from 1927, would seem to me to be a minimum proposition on
his
part in order to be plausible.

Here are the contestants at New York 1927, with their 5-year peak
ratings as given by Dr. Elo in his book:

Capablanca: 2725
Alekhine: 2690
Nimzovitch: 2615
Vidmar: 2600
Spielmann: 2560
Marshall: 2570

** The famous retrospective analysis of ratings! Including non US players!
By golly! If he had protested the same himself, then the hair he splits
would be, en claire, non? Mais non, simple le bitch, ensemble.

**My list of participants are all US citisens, and actually as strong as
these players, without regression analysis.

That's an average of 2627, which would nudge it just into Category
16 (Elo 2626-2650). Probably a pretty reasonable estimate, perhaps a
mite high -- with the exception of the oldest player, Marshall, these
masters were all at or near their time of peak performance. So it's
quite plausible to suggest that New York 1927 might be the strongest
tournament ever held on US soil. It certainly was the the strongest up
to that time.


**I see my error. Its like talking of America and having Canadians and
Mexicans object that they also live on the continent now named America.

Checking the list of "the world's strongest tournaments" in Fox &
James' "The Even More Complete Chess Addict" (Faber and Faber, 1993),
we do indeed find NY 1927, and the two Piatigorsky Cups, given as the
strongest American events, all at an estimated Category 15
(2601-2625).

**Mit auslander!

If this Spice Cup tournament surpasses them, it will be quite a
prestigious event.

**Yes.

I hope Mr. Hillery and the CJA will wake up to it too, though it was 80-some
years ago since any regressed analysis of player strength could be compared,
something is happening here which should not cause caustic commentary, but
some applause, no? Especially since the players are US ones. From the list:-

Capablanca: 2725
Alekhine: 2690
Nimzovitch: 2615
Vidmar: 2600
Spielmann: 2560
Marshall: 2570

Was only Marshall a US citizen at the time?

Phil Innes

On May 12, 3:54 pm, wrote:

"Alekhine's Parrot" (that quacking fowl Phil Innes) writes at the
_Chessville Weekly_:

"Coming up later this Year – Strongest ever US Tournament.

:-)

Question: Is it really plausible to claim that
this tournament is/will be stronger than
New York 1927, or the 1st and 2nd Piatigorsky Cups?

Or New York 1924:

1. Lasker
2. Capablanca
3. Alechin

etc.

What are the names of the present
participants of the strongest ever US
tournament again? Louder, please :-)

Wlod

"Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)" wrote in message
...
On May 12, 3:54 pm, wrote:

"Alekhine's Parrot" (that quacking fowl Phil Innes) writes at the
_Chessville Weekly_:

"Coming up later this Year – Strongest ever US Tournament.

:-)

Question: Is it really plausible to claim that
this tournament is/will be stronger than
New York 1927, or the 1st and 2nd Piatigorsky Cups?

Or New York 1924:

1. Lasker
2. Capablanca
3. Alechin

etc.

**Well, anyone can do etc eteras, but all three were foreigners, and these
compared to six people now nationals. You write as if this is comparison.

What are the names of the present
participants of the strongest ever US
tournament again? Louder, please :-)

**To what end, Wlod? I have the player list, but what exactly is the
argument you wish me to engage by mentioning them?

**If you choose to make some point about /retrospective/ ratings of 3
players compared with current ratings, make it! Otherwise you have the same
foolery in you as the Hillery, who challenged the issue without even as much
'fact' as yourself. You will also have to compass all players in your point,
btw, since the event is averaged over all players. Go for it!

Phil Innes




Wlod

wrote in message
...
On May 15, 10:17 am, wrote:
On May 15, 8:06 am, "Chess One" wrote:





wrote in message

...
"Alekhine's Parrot" (that quacking fowl Phil Innes) writes at the
_Chessville Weekly_:

"Coming up later this Year – Strongest ever US Tournament.

"September 19th to 28th sees a [so far] Category 15 tournament on US
soil in the 10 player SPICE CUP. Seven of the 10 invitees have
already signed up, and I understand average Elo is currently 2600."

Question: Is it really plausible to claim that this tournament is/will
be stronger than New York 1927, or the 1st and 2nd Piatigorsky Cups?
("Highest category" would be correct, but that's not what he wrote.)

---

Important News!

John Hillery thinks that any group of 10 US Players circa 1927
//averaged//
2600 ratings. ))))))

That is not what he is saying, Phil. By "US tournament," he clearly
means "a chess tournament played on US soil," and not "a tournament
limited to US citizens." The three events he refers to: New York 1927,
and the two Piatigorsky Cups (Los Angeles 1963 and Santa Monica 1966),
had only one or two American players each, out of six to 10 total
contestants.

[quite apart from the fact that no ratings existed, even as retrofitted
numbers against other players in the world, that is some might claim!]

Sometimes I don't know where his talents begin - somewhere on the Yellow
Brick Road? Anyway, now we know what the JKH definition of 'plausible'
is.
It is indeed possible that he thinks 1927 players could average 2600,
and
that is enough to write into these newsgroups, with disparaging comments
like a newbie or a follower of clan-Murray.

As a journalist, surely John Hillery will want to substatiate his point
by
mentioning even one fact; for example, a list of 10 players he proposes
to
average 2600 from 1927, would seem to me to be a minimum proposition on
his
part in order to be plausible.

Here are the contestants at New York 1927, with their 5-year peak
ratings as given by Dr. Elo in his book:

** Taylor covers for Hillery, who is shy of answering questions put to him
about his own utterances, and talks instead of ratings before there were
ratings! Retrogressive and guessed at ratings of a previous era.

Capablanca: 2725
Alekhine: 2690
Nimzovitch: 2615
Vidmar: 2600
Spielmann: 2560
Marshall: 2570

That's an average of 2627, which would nudge it just into Category
16 (Elo 2626-2650). Probably a pretty reasonable estimate, perhaps a
mite high -- with the exception of the oldest player, Marshall, these
masters were all at or near their time of peak performance. So it's
quite plausible to suggest that New York 1927 might be the strongest
tournament ever held on US soil. It certainly was the the strongest up
to that time.

** If indeed we were to speculate on regressions, and only say 'plausible'.
Sure!

Checking the list of "the world's strongest tournaments" in Fox &
James' "The Even More Complete Chess Addict" (Faber and Faber, 1993),
we do indeed find NY 1927, and the two Piatigorsky Cups, given as the
strongest American events, all at an estimated Category 15
(2601-2625).

**Hardly candid. Should it not be mentioned that these are regressive and
estimated ratings? Or maybe that is too much for this conversation to
withstand.

**For players with ratings, it is uncontested. For degrees of speculation
there is resort to untested performance, as if the named players above could
compete at the same level as those with similar rating today.

If this Spice Cup tournament surpasses them, it will be quite a
prestigious event.

Just for the sake of fuller information, here are the Patigorsky Cup
contestants, and their 5-year peak Elo ratings (or Jan 1978 rating
where Elo does not give a 5-year peak):

** What has this to do with the price of fish? These players with ratings
never played en group in the USA to achieve the current category level. It
merely establishes world ratings in 63 and 66, as some sort of benchmark.

**Phil Innes

1963:

Keres 2670
Petrosian 2680
Najdorf 2635
Olafsson 2530 (as of 1/1/1978)
Reshevsky 2680
Gligoric 2620
Benko 2570
Panno 2580 (1/1/1978)

1966:

Spassky 2680
Fischer 2780 (1/11978)
Larsen 2620 (1/1/1978)
Portisch 2630 (1/1/1978)
Unzicker 2590
Petrosian 2680
Reshevsky 2680
Najdorf 2635
Ivkov 2570
Donner 2500

Chess One wrote:
wrote in message
...
On May 15, 10:17 am, wrote:
On May 15, 8:06 am, "Chess One" wrote:





wrote in message

...
"Alekhine's Parrot" (that quacking fowl Phil Innes) writes at the
_Chessville Weekly_:

"Coming up later this Year � Strongest ever US Tournament.

"September 19th to 28th sees a [so far] Category 15 tournament on US
soil in the 10 player SPICE CUP. Seven of the 10 invitees have
already signed up, and I understand average Elo is currently 2600."

Question: Is it really plausible to claim that this tournament is/will
be stronger than New York 1927, or the 1st and 2nd Piatigorsky Cups?
("Highest category" would be correct, but that's not what he wrote.)

---

Important News!

John Hillery thinks that any group of 10 US Players circa 1927
//averaged//
2600 ratings. ))))))

That is not what he is saying, Phil. By "US tournament," he clearly
means "a chess tournament played on US soil," and not "a tournament
limited to US citizens." The three events he refers to: New York 1927,
and the two Piatigorsky Cups (Los Angeles 1963 and Santa Monica 1966),
had only one or two American players each, out of six to 10 total
contestants.

[quite apart from the fact that no ratings existed, even as retrofitted
numbers against other players in the world, that is some might claim!]

Sometimes I don't know where his talents begin - somewhere on the Yellow
Brick Road? Anyway, now we know what the JKH definition of 'plausible'
is.
It is indeed possible that he thinks 1927 players could average 2600,
and
that is enough to write into these newsgroups, with disparaging comments
like a newbie or a follower of clan-Murray.

As a journalist, surely John Hillery will want to substatiate his point
by
mentioning even one fact; for example, a list of 10 players he proposes
to
average 2600 from 1927, would seem to me to be a minimum proposition on
his
part in order to be plausible.

Here are the contestants at New York 1927, with their 5-year peak
ratings as given by Dr. Elo in his book:

** Taylor covers for Hillery, who is shy of answering questions put to him
about his own utterances, and talks instead of ratings before there were
ratings! Retrogressive and guessed at ratings of a previous era.

Capablanca: 2725
Alekhine: 2690
Nimzovitch: 2615
Vidmar: 2600
Spielmann: 2560
Marshall: 2570

That's an average of 2627, which would nudge it just into Category
16 (Elo 2626-2650). Probably a pretty reasonable estimate, perhaps a
mite high -- with the exception of the oldest player, Marshall, these
masters were all at or near their time of peak performance. So it's
quite plausible to suggest that New York 1927 might be the strongest
tournament ever held on US soil. It certainly was the the strongest up
to that time.

** If indeed we were to speculate on regressions, and only say 'plausible'..
Sure!

Checking the list of "the world's strongest tournaments" in Fox &
James' "The Even More Complete Chess Addict" (Faber and Faber, 1993),
we do indeed find NY 1927, and the two Piatigorsky Cups, given as the
strongest American events, all at an estimated Category 15
(2601-2625).

**Hardly candid. Should it not be mentioned that these are regressive and
estimated ratings? Or maybe that is too much for this conversation to
withstand.

**For players with ratings, it is uncontested. For degrees of speculation
there is resort to untested performance, as if the named players above could
compete at the same level as those with similar rating today.

If this Spice Cup tournament surpasses them, it will be quite a
prestigious event.

Just for the sake of fuller information, here are the Patigorsky Cup
contestants, and their 5-year peak Elo ratings (or Jan 1978 rating
where Elo does not give a 5-year peak):

** What has this to do with the price of fish? These players with ratings
never played en group in the USA to achieve the current category level. It
merely establishes world ratings in 63 and 66, as some sort of benchmark.

**Phil Innes

1963:

Keres 2670
Petrosian 2680
Najdorf 2635
Olafsson 2530 (as of 1/1/1978)
Reshevsky 2680
Gligoric 2620
Benko 2570
Panno 2580 (1/1/1978)

1966:

Spassky 2680
Fischer 2780 (1/11978)
Larsen 2620 (1/1/1978)
Portisch 2630 (1/1/1978)
Unzicker 2590
Petrosian 2680
Reshevsky 2680
Najdorf 2635
Ivkov 2570
Donner 2500



Phil, are you capable of discussing the matter sensibly, or is
spitting clouds of ink your only talent?

1) "U.S. tournament" means exactly what is says, a tournament held in
the U.S. The residence or citizenship of the players is completely
irrelevant. Your attempt to bring this up indicates that either you
don't understand the question or don''t have an answer.

2) New York 1927 did not have ten players. You are probably thinking
of New York 1924 (though that had 11). Can you really expect your
opinions to be taken seriously when you lack a grasp of the facts?
Note that I deliberately did not mention New York 1924 because, while
the top half (maybe 2/3) was very strong, there several relatively
weak players at the bottom bringing the average down.

3) The question is not _rating_, it's _playing strength_. (I made that
point in my original post, but apparently it went over your head.)
Those retroactive calculations are certainly suggestive, but you are
correct (mirabile dictu) that they are not dispositive. It's a
question of informed judgment. I'm quite willing to consider differing
opinions on this -- but only from those qualified to hold an opinion.
Frankly, Phil, that doesn''t include you. You're a fairly weak player
(low Expert), and your comments make it clear that you are profoundly
ignorant of chess history. (Have you even played though the games of
those three tournaments?) Most people keep quiet when they know
nothing of a subject, not wanting to make fools of themselves. In your
case, that horse has clearly left the barn.