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Stalemate counts as a draw?



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 27th 17, 04:06 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
Rainer[_2_]
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Posts: 29
Default Stalemate counts as a draw?

On 27/01/2017 16:10, Kerry Liles wrote:
On 1/26/2017 7:11 PM, Rainer wrote:
On 26/01/2017 18:30, The Horny Goat wrote:

[...] which is why you get arcane rules like the
K+2N v K+P rule on which are and aren't drawn.

(If the poor arbiter is faced with one of these he/she had BETTER have
a rulebook or web browser handy as nobody will remember the exact
shape of the jagged line across the board! In 30+ years of directing
I've never seen anything like that)


Are you referring to the Troitsky line? It indicates when K+2N can force
a win against K+P but it has nothing to do with the rules of chess.
Arbiters don't have to know about it.

Cheers,
Rainer


When you say "Arbiters don't have to know about it" are you claiming
that arbiters do not have to know whether it is possible there is a win
in a given position? I am not 100% up to date on FIDE rules and nuances,
but if a player claims a draw due to 'insufficient mating material' such
a discussion could be the result, no?


There is no 'insufficient mating material' rule.

There is the 'dead position' rule which states that "(5.2.b) the game is
drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate
the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves."

Forced wins don't matter, only possible wins do. Under the dead position
rule, even K+2N v K or K+N v K+P are no draws, the less so K+2N v K+P.

Cheers,
Rainer
  #12  
Old January 28th 17, 01:09 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
Paul
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Posts: 82
Default Stalemate counts as a draw?

On Thursday, January 26, 2017 at 5:30:46 PM UTC, The Horny Goat wrote:
....

As also opposed to K+B vs K or K+N vs K where it's an immediate draw.

....

Why is this an "immediate draw"? Checkmate by either side is possible,
although unlikely.

Paul
  #13  
Old January 28th 17, 09:01 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
The Horny Goat
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Posts: 42
Default Stalemate counts as a draw?

On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 01:11:12 +0100, Rainer
wrote:

On 26/01/2017 18:30, The Horny Goat wrote:

[...] which is why you get arcane rules like the
K+2N v K+P rule on which are and aren't drawn.

(If the poor arbiter is faced with one of these he/she had BETTER have
a rulebook or web browser handy as nobody will remember the exact
shape of the jagged line across the board! In 30+ years of directing
I've never seen anything like that)


Are you referring to the Troitsky line? It indicates when K+2N can force
a win against K+P but it has nothing to do with the rules of chess.
Arbiters don't have to know about it.


Yes I was - and I have just re-read the drawn game portion of the 2014
rules and find the 2014 rules have been stripped down from went before
(which is probably a good thing).

Two points that are interresting
- if you claim a draw under the 50 move rule or any of the other
clauses you are deemed to be offering a draw and you cannot withdraw
your claim once made - so if you were suddenly to see a forced mate in
4 on the board your opponent would be entitled to say 'I accept your
offer' whether o not your draw claim was actually valid.

- in a draw offer situation a mate on the board overrides everything.
So in a 50 move claim you see a forced mate at move 52 too bad - but a
mate on move 50 is a win as a mate immediately ends the game.
  #14  
Old January 28th 17, 09:07 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
The Horny Goat
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Posts: 42
Default Stalemate counts as a draw?

On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 10:10:39 -0500, Kerry Liles
wrote:


When you say "Arbiters don't have to know about it" are you claiming
that arbiters do not have to know whether it is possible there is a win
in a given position? I am not 100% up to date on FIDE rules and nuances,
but if a player claims a draw due to 'insufficient mating material' such
a discussion could be the result, no?


That's what he was saying.

Again the drawn game section of the 2014 FIDE rules is much less
complicated than before but is still based on the 'helpmate' principle
- meaning that a game is won even if no sane defence could produce a
win. For instance Bb1, Pa7 K anywhere vs K on a8 would still be a win
because well you know the king MIGHT walk to a1 allowing the pawn to
queen you never know!

Actually in all seriousness there are all kinds of positions which
would be won on time even though there was no way the game could
actually be won (ex. imagine all 8 pawns on both sides completely
locked and both kings shuffling back and forth on their own side of
the board. Theoretically such a game could go a very long time without
a draw even though neither side could ever penetrate and win.

To summarize: the rules definitely do NOT expect best or even good
play by both players!
  #15  
Old January 28th 17, 09:11 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
The Horny Goat
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Posts: 42
Default Stalemate counts as a draw?

On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 17:06:07 +0100, Rainer
wrote:

There is the 'dead position' rule which states that "(5.2.b) the game is
drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate
the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves."

Forced wins don't matter, only possible wins do. Under the dead position
rule, even K+2N v K or K+N v K+P are no draws, the less so K+2N v K+P.


Note the wording - it does NOT assume best play - thus Black Ka8, Na7,
Nb8, White Kc7,Pb6 is still a win for white when Pb7 mate is the next
move even though no black would ever maneuver his pieces in that way.

Similarly K+2N vs K can't be claimed a draw under this rule since 2
N's CAN mate - just not by force against best play.
  #16  
Old January 28th 17, 09:13 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
The Horny Goat
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Posts: 42
Default Stalemate counts as a draw?

On Sat, 28 Jan 2017 05:09:51 -0800 (PST), Paul
wrote:

On Thursday, January 26, 2017 at 5:30:46 PM UTC, The Horny Goat wrote:
...

As also opposed to K+B vs K or K+N vs K where it's an immediate draw.

...

Why is this an "immediate draw"? Checkmate by either side is possible,
although unlikely.


Correct. This rule is designed to allow a draw claim for K + B or N vs
K. As you say mate is certainly constructable though not forceable by
best or even good play.
  #17  
Old January 28th 17, 10:19 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
Ken Blake[_3_]
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Posts: 10
Default Stalemate counts as a draw?

On Sat, 28 Jan 2017 13:13:07 -0800, The Horny Goat
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2017 05:09:51 -0800 (PST), Paul
wrote:

On Thursday, January 26, 2017 at 5:30:46 PM UTC, The Horny Goat wrote:
...

As also opposed to K+B vs K or K+N vs K where it's an immediate draw.

...

Why is this an "immediate draw"? Checkmate by either side is possible,
although unlikely.


Correct. This rule is designed to allow a draw claim for K + B or N vs
K. As you say mate is certainly constructable though not forceable by
best or even good play.



Correct? Care to show us those four checkmates positions by both
sides?
  #18  
Old January 29th 17, 06:27 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
Quadibloc
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Posts: 541
Default Stalemate counts as a draw?

On Wednesday, January 25, 2017 at 2:22:08 PM UTC-7, Peter Percival wrote:
Does stalemate count as a draw?


Of course - and this is noted in just about every introductory book about Chess.

John Savard
  #19  
Old January 29th 17, 05:11 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
Paul
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Posts: 82
Default Stalemate counts as a draw?

On Saturday, January 28, 2017 at 10:19:27 PM UTC, Ken Blake wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jan 2017 13:13:07 -0800, The Horny Goat
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2017 05:09:51 -0800 (PST), Paul
wrote:

On Thursday, January 26, 2017 at 5:30:46 PM UTC, The Horny Goat wrote:
...

As also opposed to K+B vs K or K+N vs K where it's an immediate draw.
...

Why is this an "immediate draw"? Checkmate by either side is possible,
although unlikely.


Correct. This rule is designed to allow a draw claim for K + B or N vs
K. As you say mate is certainly constructable though not forceable by
best or even good play.



Correct? Care to show us those four checkmates positions by both
sides?


I misread the post I was replying to as "K + B vs K + N". This is, of
course, not necessarily a draw.

My comment was wrong and that's why I tried to delete it. It's deleted from
Google groups.

Paul
  #20  
Old January 29th 17, 06:11 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
Ken Blake[_3_]
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Posts: 10
Default Stalemate counts as a draw?

On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 09:11:27 -0800 (PST), Paul
wrote:

On Saturday, January 28, 2017 at 10:19:27 PM UTC, Ken Blake wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jan 2017 13:13:07 -0800, The Horny Goat
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2017 05:09:51 -0800 (PST), Paul
wrote:

On Thursday, January 26, 2017 at 5:30:46 PM UTC, The Horny Goat wrote:
...

As also opposed to K+B vs K or K+N vs K where it's an immediate draw.
...

Why is this an "immediate draw"? Checkmate by either side is possible,
although unlikely.

Correct. This rule is designed to allow a draw claim for K + B or N vs
K. As you say mate is certainly constructable though not forceable by
best or even good play.



Correct? Care to show us those four checkmates positions by both
sides?


I misread the post I was replying to as "K + B vs K + N". This is, of
course, not necessarily a draw.

My comment was wrong ...




OK, no big problem. I suspected something like that.

 




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