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  #11  
Old July 13th 03, 01:10 PM
Chapman billy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Because

In article
,
says...
You are being very delicate in not mentioning that
Finland was once part of the Swedish empire, along with
a large chunk of the Baltic; up until the Grand Duchy
gained the dubious privilege of being grabbed by Russia


Finland did not become a Grand duchy until after 1809.


Thank you for the clarification, I got a bit bored with
writing Finland, Finns,...


Many Europeans sympathised with the Finns in the Winter
War to the point of wishing to offer concrete aid; if one
wants to be cruel, perhaps the failure of the Narvik
expedition was a blessing in disguise in this respect.


The Narvik expedition started long after the Winter war was over.



In the planning stages of Narvik the plight of the Finns
was very much in the public eye. Here is what Churchill,
or one of his aids, wrote in volume one of "The Second
World War".


"All the resentment felt against the Soviet Government
for the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact was fanned into flame by
this latest exhibition of brutal bullying and aggression.
With this was also mingled scorn for the inefficiency
displayed by the Soviet troops and enthusiasm for the
gallant Finns. In spite of the Great War which had been
declared, there was a keen desire to help the Finns by
aircraft and other precious war material and by
volunteers from Britain, from the United States, and
still more from France. Alike for the munition supplies
and the volunteers there was only one possible route to
Finland. The iron-ore port of Narvik with its railroad
over the mountains to the Swedish iron mines acquired a
new sentimental if not strategic significance."

(volume I, p 429, Cassell 1948).

"I sympathised ardently with the Finns and supported all
proposals for their aid; and I welcomed this new and
favourable breeze as a means of achieving the major
strategic advantage of cutting off the vital iron-ore
supplies of Germany. If Narvik was to become a kind of
Allied base to supply the Finns, it would certainly be
easy to prevent the German ships loading ore at the port
and sailing safely down the leads to Germany."

(page 430).


Military expeditions have a habit of proceeding no matter
what the change in circumstance. Perhaps Burns put it
best:

But Mousie, thou art no thy lane,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft agley,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promised joy!

Regards,

Simon.


Ads
  #12  
Old July 14th 03, 03:55 AM
Nick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Because

"Mark Houlsby"
wrote in message ...
Tim Hanke wrote (to Mark Houlsby):
(snipped)
Even the Chinese are actually a patchwork of ethnicities, even though you
may consider them all to be short yellow people with slanted eyes....


On the contrary, I believe that Mark Houlsby *is* aware of the existence of
Yao Ming, a 226 cm (7'5") tall Chinese basketball star in the NBA.

As one of my political science professors noted in college (I was at
Harvard, but he was visiting for the term from MIT), many of the most
successful and stable Third World countries are former British colonies
which absorbed a semblance of British institutions. Stand up straight and
take some pride in your own country, man, this is a compliment to your
native culture.


India may have benefited somewhat from British colonisation, since it still
is a democracy. There remain, however, very serious problems both of
population and of an ecological nature in that country. I am pleased to know
number of Indians who, if they are typically resourceful and industrious,
may indicate that India could solve its problems. I do hope so....


'They left no noble monuments behind and no religion save a concept of
Englishness as a desirable code of behaviour--of chivalry, it might be
described, tempered by legalism.'
--V.S. Naipaul (1964, An Area of Darkness, p. 201; on the British in India)

Dear Mr. Houlsby,

I hope so too. But I am afraid that I may have to disillusion you further
about the historical record of British imperialism in India.

"For many years, British books on India formed a small but precise genre of
their own, involving the use of phrases like 'the heady smell of spices and
woodsmoke', and descriptive invocations of cruel maharajahs, sly holymen,
rebellious tribesmen and the heat of the Deccan, together with occasional
appearances by tigers, missionaries, memsahibs, gymkhanas, Kipling and tiffin.
This extended into histories of the edifice lately termed 'the Raj', and
although it is now rare to find imperial dogma articulated so openly, a
nostalgic subtext still hovers beneath the pages of many books, like a loyal
native bearer lurking discreetly under the verandah of one of M.M. Kaye's
bungalows.

The subcontinental response to this British-imagined India has been richly
impressive in the realms of fiction, but generally flimsy when it comes to
historical or biographical writing. Too often, a narrow, obfuscatory
nationalism has been the only way of facing the region's history, enabling
the father of the nation--be he Jinnah or Gandhi--to emerge dressed in a
spotless suit, sherwani or dhoti. There has been a consistent failure to
recognise or acknowledge the real role of Indian politicians in what happened
in the 1930s and forties. Although personally I believe that British rule in
India had a primarily destructive effect, it does not follow that the ousters
of the imperialists were therefore blameless, or that they do not share
responsibility for what took place. Even at its height, the European presence
in the subcontinent neer amounted to more than 0.05 per cent of the total
population. British rule in India was always a joint venture, which depended
heavily on collaboration.

While it lasted, it was an effective but shallow way of governing, which may
explain why all that remains of the Indian Empire half a century on is a
handful of fine buildings, a stagnant legal system and bureaucracy, and a
mutated language....

The British did *not*, as if often claimed, give India democracy, except in
a primitive form at the level of provincial government. The decision to grant
a universal franchise to the people of India (and from time to time to the
people of Bangladesh and Pakistan) was made by the relevant elites *after*
independence. The most durable legacy of the Indo-British encounter can be
found in the British Isles, in the form of two million citizens of
subcontinental descent--'the Asian community', as politicians say, although
whether a Bengali Muslim and a Gujurati Hindu really belong to the same
community must be open to question.

The story of India's journey to independence and division remains a contentious
and hugely sensitive area of history. In Britain it is viewed as an
embarrassment, in Bangladesh as a betrayal, in India as a mixed blessing, and
in Pakistan as a matter too tender even to be seriously discussed."

--Patrick French (1997, Liberty or Death, xxiv-xxv)

"'Right-wing' critics of liberalism in the Raj looked with satisfaction to the
journalism of Sir James Fitzjames Stephen, who in 1883 famously said that the
Raj was 'founded not on consent but on conquest'....Once Indian nationalism
became an even half-serious proposition, the Raj could not long endure.
Racist, by any standards, it undoubtedly was; economically exploitative too,
as nearly all modern historians wish to point out; but the British will to
govern by force had its limits when consent was absent. The massacre of
protestors at Amritsar by General Dyer--379 killed and 1200 wounded--on
13 April 1919, followed by a proclamation of martial law, was a disgrace from
which the British Raj never recovered its semi-legitimate self-estimation for
decency and justice. Thirty years before independence it sealed the Raj's
fate..."
--A.N. Wilson (The Victorians, pp. 500-1)

"India, of course, was the greatest captive market in world history, rising
from third to first place among consumers of British exports in the quarter
century after 1870. 'British rulers', writes Marcello de Cecco in his study
of the Victorian gold standard system, 'deliberately prevented Indians from
becoming skilled mechanics, refused contracts to Indian firms which produced
materials that could be got from England, and generally hindered the formation
of an autonomous industrial structure in India.' Thanks to a 'government
stores policy that reserved most government purchases to British products and
by the monopoly of British agency houses in organizing the import-export
trade', India was forced to absorb Britain's surplus of increasingly
obsolescent and noncompetitive industrial exports. By 1910 this included
two-fifths of the UK's finished cotton goods and three-fifths of its exports
of electrical products, railway equipment, books and pharmaceuticals. As a
result, observes de Cecco, Britain avoided, 'having to restructure her
industry and was able to invest capital in the countries where it gave the
highest return'. Thanks to India, 'British financiers were not compelled to
'tie' their loans to British exports because the Imperial outlet was always
available for British products....

But how, in an age of famine, could the subcontinent afford to subsidize its
conqueror's suddenly precarious commercial supremacy? In a word, it couldn't,
and India was forced-marched into the world market, as we shall see, by
revenue and irrigation policies that compelled farmers to produce for foreign
consumption at the price of their own food security....Between 1875 and 1900,
years that included the worst famines in Indian history, annual grain exports
*increased* from 3 million to 10 million tons: a quantity that, as Romesh
Dutt pointed out, was equivalent to the annual nutrition of 25 million people.
By the turn of the century, India was supplying nearly a fifth of Britain's
wheat consumption as well as allowing London grain merchants to speculate
during shortages on the Continent.

But Indian agriculture's even more decisive contribution to the imperial
system, from the East India Company's first *illegal* shipment of opium to
Canton, was the income it earned in the rest of the Eastern Hemisphere....
Indeed England's systematic exploitation of India depended in large part upon
India's commercial exploitation of China. The triangular trade between India,
China and Britain had a strategic economic importance in the Victorian world
system that transcended other far larger flows of commerce....By *forcibly*
enlarging the Chinese demand for the narcotic and, thus, the taxes collected
on its export, the two Opium Wars (1839-42 and 1856-58) and the punitive
Treaty of Tianjin (1858) revolutionized the revenue base of British India.
'Opium', says John Wong, 'serviced the cost of imperial expansion in India.'
Opium shipments from India reached a peak of 87000 chests in 1879, the biggest
drug transactions in world history....

'The sale of Bengal opium to China', Latham explains, 'was a great link in
the chain of commerce with which Britain had surrounded the world. The chain
worked like this: The United Kingdom paid the United States for cotton by bills
upon the Bank of England. The Americans took some of those bills to Canton
and swapped them for tea. The Chinese exchanged the bills for Indian opium.
Some of the bills were remitted to England as profit; others were taken to
India to buy additional commodities, as well as to furnish the money remittance
of private fortunes in India and the funds for carrying on the Indian
government at home.'...

Britain's dominant role in Chinese foreign trade, built by Victorian
narcotraficantes with gunboats, thus leveraged the whle free-trade imperium....
Moreover, China was *forced* at bayonet point to cede control over tariffs to
the British inspector-general of the Imperial Maritime Customs Administration,
a de facto imperial proconsul who 'came to enjoy more influence with the
Foreign Office than did the British Minister in Peking.'"

--Mike Davis (Late Victorian Holocausts, pp. 298-301)

"...William Digby, principal chronicler of the 1876 Madras famine, prophesized
on the eve of Queen Victoria's death that when 'the part played by the British
Empire in the nineteenth century is regarded by the historian fifty years
hence, the *unnecessary* deaths of millions of Indians would be its principal
and most notorious monument.' A most eminent Victorian, the famed naturalist
Alfred Russel Wallace, the codiscoverer with Darwin of the theory of natural
selection, passionately agreed. Like Digby, he viewed mass starvation as
*avoidable* political tragedy, not 'natural' disaster....how do we weigh
smug claims about the life-saving benefits of steam transportation and modern
grain markets when so many millions, especially in British India, died
alongside railroad tracks or on the steps of grain depots?"
--Mike Davis (Late Victorian Holocausts, pp. 8-9)

"(Sir Richard) Temple's perverse task was to make relief as repugnant and
ineffective as possible. In zealously following his instructions to the
letter, he became to Indian history what Charles Edward Trevelyan...had become
to Irish history: the personificatin of free market economics as a mask for
colonial genocide.

In a lightning tour of the famished countryside of the eastern Deccan, Temple
purged a half million people from relief work and forced Madras to follow
Bombay's precedent of requiring starving applicants to travel to dormitory
camps outside their locality for coolie labor on railroad and canal projects.
The deliberately cruel 'distance test' refused work to able-bodied adults and
older children within a ten-mile radius of their homes. Famished laborers
were also prohibited from seeking relief until 'it was certified that they had
become indigent, destitute, and capable of only a modicum of labour'....

In self-proclaimed Benthamite 'experiment' that eerily prefigured later Nazi
research on minimal human subsistence diets in concentration camps, Temple
cut rations for male coolies, whom he compared to 'a school full of refractory
children', down to one pound of rice per diem *despite* medical testimony
that ryots--once 'strapping fine fellows'--were now 'little more than animated
skeletons...utterly unfit for any work'. (Noting that felons traditionally
received two pounds of rice per day, one district official suggested that 'it
would be better to shoot down the wretches than to prolong their misery in
the way proposed'.)...In the event, the 'Temple wage', as it became known,
provided *less* sustenance for hard labor than the diet inside the infamous
Buchenwald concentration camp and less than half of them modern caloric
standard recommended for adult males by the Indian government....

Temple meanwhile proclaimed that he had put 'the famine under control'.
(Digby sourly responded that 'a famine can scarcely be sid to be adequately
controlled which leaves one-fourth of the people dead'.)...Exactly as medical
officials had warned, the 'Temple wage' combined with heavy physical labor
and dreadful sanitation turned the work camps into *extermination camps*....
Post-mortem examinations, moreover, showed that the chief cause of death...
was textbook starvation, with full-grown men reduced to under sixty pounds of
weight....

Temple's ferocious response to reports of mass mortality in the camps was to
blame the victims...'Nor will many be inclined to grieve for the fate which
they brought upon themselves, and which terminated lives of idleness and too
often of crime.'"

--Mike Davis (Late Victorian Holocausts, pp. 37-41)

During the Second World War, there was a great famine in Bengal, which
caused a few million deaths, toward which any British relief was much too
little and too late.

"Jinnah stated in the Legislative Assembly in New Delhi that the British
were 'irresponsible' and 'incompetent' to have allowed the famine to develop,
and pointed out that Churchill's administration would not have remained in
office for twenty-four hours if people had been dying of starvation in their
thousands every week on the streets of Britain....Wavell wrote that he
considered the Cabinet's stand over food imports to Bengal to be nothing short
of 'scandalous', and threatened resignation if nothing was done to halt the
deaths from starvation....Under pressure from Wavell and Amery, Churchill
asked Roosevelt if he could borrow US ships to bring wheat from Australia....
The Americans refused to assist, for fear of damaging their own war effort....

In February 1944, when the worst of the crisis had passed, Wavell sent a
telegram to Amery which read: 'Bengal famine was one of the greatest disasters
that has befallen any people under British rule and damage to our reputation
here...is incalculable. Atempt by His Majesty's Government to prove on the
basis of admittedly defective statistics that we an do without help demanded
would be regarded here by all opinion British and Indian as utterly
indefensible...'"

--Patrick French (Liberty or Death, pp. 182-3)

'Heart of Smugness' by Maria Misra (23 July 2002, The Guardian):
'Unlike Belgium, Britain is still complacently ignoring the gory cruelties
of its empire.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...761626,00.html

Here are some reviews of 'Late Victorian Holocausts':

http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/...424896,00.html

http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/...436292,00.html

'I was born to destroy this evil government.'
--Mohandas Gandhi (1930, on the British Raj in India)

--Nick
  #13  
Old July 14th 03, 04:21 AM
Mhoulsby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Because

From: (Nick)
Date: 14/07/03 02:55 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

"Mark Houlsby"
wrote in message ...
Tim Hanke wrote (to Mark Houlsby):
(snipped)
Even the Chinese are actually a patchwork of ethnicities, even though you
may consider them all to be short yellow people with slanted eyes....


On the contrary, I believe that Mark Houlsby *is* aware of the existence of
Yao Ming, a 226 cm (7'5") tall Chinese basketball star in the NBA.


I am indeed aware of Yao Ming, but have become aware of him only as a result of
the discussion, in these groups a few months ago, of the TV commercial.

As one of my political science professors noted in college (I was at
Harvard, but he was visiting for the term from MIT), many of the most
successful and stable Third World countries are former British colonies
which absorbed a semblance of British institutions. Stand up straight and
take some pride in your own country, man, this is a compliment to your
native culture.


India may have benefited somewhat from British colonisation, since it still
is a democracy. There remain, however, very serious problems both of
population and of an ecological nature in that country. I am pleased to

know
number of Indians who, if they are typically resourceful and industrious,
may indicate that India could solve its problems. I do hope so....


'They left no noble monuments behind and no religion save a concept of
Englishness as a desirable code of behaviour--of chivalry, it might be
described, tempered by legalism.'
--V.S. Naipaul (1964, An Area of Darkness, p. 201; on the British in India)

Dear Mr. Houlsby,

I hope so too. But I am afraid that I may have to disillusion you further
about the historical record of British imperialism in India.


You may, or you may not.

"For many years, British books on India formed a small but precise genre of
their own, involving the use of phrases like 'the heady smell of spices and
woodsmoke', and descriptive invocations of cruel maharajahs, sly holymen,
rebellious tribesmen and the heat of the Deccan, together with occasional
appearances by tigers, missionaries, memsahibs, gymkhanas, Kipling and
tiffin.
This extended into histories of the edifice lately termed 'the Raj', and
although it is now rare to find imperial dogma articulated so openly, a
nostalgic subtext still hovers beneath the pages of many books, like a loyal
native bearer lurking discreetly under the verandah of one of M.M. Kaye's
bungalows.


Yes......

The subcontinental response to this British-imagined India has been richly
impressive in the realms of fiction, but generally flimsy when it comes to
historical or biographical writing. Too often, a narrow, obfuscatory
nationalism has been the only way of facing the region's history, enabling
the father of the nation--be he Jinnah or Gandhi--to emerge dressed in a
spotless suit, sherwani or dhoti. There has been a consistent failure to
recognise or acknowledge the real role of Indian politicians in what happened
in the 1930s and forties. Although personally I believe that British rule in
India had a primarily destructive effect,


.....much as I do.....

it does not follow that the ousters
of the imperialists were therefore blameless, or that they do not share
responsibility for what took place. Even at its height, the European
presence
in the subcontinent neer amounted to more than 0.05 per cent of the total
population. British rule in India was always a joint venture, which depended
heavily on collaboration.


Clearly.

While it lasted, it was an effective but shallow way of governing, which may
explain why all that remains of the Indian Empire half a century on is a
handful of fine buildings, a stagnant legal system and bureaucracy, and a
mutated language....

The British did *not*, as if often claimed, give India democracy, except in
a primitive form at the level of provincial government. The decision to
grant
a universal franchise to the people of India (and from time to time to the
people of Bangladesh and Pakistan) was made by the relevant elites *after*
independence. The most durable legacy of the Indo-British encounter can be
found in the British Isles, in the form of two million citizens of
subcontinental descent--'the Asian community', as politicians say, although
whether a Bengali Muslim and a Gujurati Hindu really belong to the same
community must be open to question.


Indeed.

The story of India's journey to independence and division remains a
contentious
and hugely sensitive area of history. In Britain it is viewed as an
embarrassment, in Bangladesh as a betrayal, in India as a mixed blessing, and
in Pakistan as a matter too tender even to be seriously discussed."

--Patrick French (1997, Liberty or Death, xxiv-xxv)

"'Right-wing' critics of liberalism in the Raj looked with satisfaction to
the
journalism of Sir James Fitzjames Stephen, who in 1883 famously said that the
Raj was 'founded not on consent but on conquest'....Once Indian nationalism
became an even half-serious proposition, the Raj could not long endure.
Racist, by any standards, it undoubtedly was; economically exploitative too,
as nearly all modern historians wish to point out; but the British will to
govern by force had its limits when consent was absent. The massacre of
protestors at Amritsar by General Dyer--379 killed and 1200 wounded--on
13 April 1919, followed by a proclamation of martial law, was a disgrace from
which the British Raj never recovered its semi-legitimate self-estimation for
decency and justice. Thirty years before independence it sealed the Raj's
fate..."
--A.N. Wilson (The Victorians, pp. 500-1)


Yes.

"India, of course, was the greatest captive market in world history, rising
from third to first place among consumers of British exports in the quarter
century after 1870. 'British rulers', writes Marcello de Cecco in his study
of the Victorian gold standard system, 'deliberately prevented Indians from
becoming skilled mechanics, refused contracts to Indian firms which produced
materials that could be got from England, and generally hindered the
formation
of an autonomous industrial structure in India.' Thanks to a 'government
stores policy that reserved most government purchases to British products and
by the monopoly of British agency houses in organizing the import-export
trade', India was forced to absorb Britain's surplus of increasingly
obsolescent and noncompetitive industrial exports. By 1910 this included
two-fifths of the UK's finished cotton goods and three-fifths of its exports
of electrical products, railway equipment, books and pharmaceuticals. As a
result, observes de Cecco, Britain avoided, 'having to restructure her
industry and was able to invest capital in the countries where it gave the
highest return'. Thanks to India, 'British financiers were not compelled to
'tie' their loans to British exports because the Imperial outlet was always
available for British products....


Yes. It's worth noting that a significant consequence of the effective
implosion of the British Empire, and perhaps especially the loss of "The Jewel
In The Crown", was certainly one of the most significant, and perhaps *the*
most significant motor which led to the phenomenon which was known as
"decimalisation", that is [or was] the conversion of British currency from its
ancient imperial incarnation as "pounds shillings and pence" (£/s/d) (four
farthings to a penny, 12 pennies in a shilling, 20 shillings in a pound) to a
*decimal* currency of 100 "new pence" (as it was styled thirty-odd years ago)
to the pound. This was to pave the way to Britain's eventual adoption of the
euro, the currency of much of the rest of Europe. When most of Britain's trade
was with its empire, it made sense to maintain the imperial currency. Now that
most of its trade is with Europe and the USA, it makes economic sense to adopt
the euro which was deliberately pitched at roughly one euro to the US dollar.

But how, in an age of famine, could the subcontinent afford to subsidize its
conqueror's suddenly precarious commercial supremacy? In a word, it
couldn't,
and India was forced-marched into the world market, as we shall see, by
revenue and irrigation policies that compelled farmers to produce for foreign
consumption at the price of their own food security....Between 1875 and 1900,
years that included the worst famines in Indian history, annual grain exports
*increased* from 3 million to 10 million tons: a quantity that, as Romesh
Dutt pointed out, was equivalent to the annual nutrition of 25 million
people.
By the turn of the century, India was supplying nearly a fifth of Britain's
wheat consumption as well as allowing London grain merchants to speculate
during shortages on the Continent.

But Indian agriculture's even more decisive contribution to the imperial
system, from the East India Company's first *illegal* shipment of opium to
Canton, was the income it earned in the rest of the Eastern Hemisphere....
Indeed England's systematic exploitation of India depended in large part upon
India's commercial exploitation of China. The triangular trade between
India,
China and Britain had a strategic economic importance in the Victorian world
system that transcended other far larger flows of commerce....By *forcibly*
enlarging the Chinese demand for the narcotic and, thus, the taxes collected
on its export, the two Opium Wars (1839-42 and 1856-58) and the punitive
Treaty of Tianjin (1858) revolutionized the revenue base of British India.
'Opium', says John Wong, 'serviced the cost of imperial expansion in India.'
Opium shipments from India reached a peak of 87000 chests in 1879, the
biggest
drug transactions in world history....

'The sale of Bengal opium to China', Latham explains, 'was a great link in
the chain of commerce with which Britain had surrounded the world. The chain
worked like this: The United Kingdom paid the United States for cotton by
bills
upon the Bank of England. The Americans took some of those bills to Canton
and swapped them for tea. The Chinese exchanged the bills for Indian opium.
Some of the bills were remitted to England as profit; others were taken to
India to buy additional commodities, as well as to furnish the money
remittance
of private fortunes in India and the funds for carrying on the Indian
government at home.'...

Britain's dominant role in Chinese foreign trade, built by Victorian
narcotraficantes with gunboats, thus leveraged the whle free-trade
imperium....
Moreover, China was *forced* at bayonet point to cede control over tariffs to
the British inspector-general of the Imperial Maritime Customs
Administration,
a de facto imperial proconsul who 'came to enjoy more influence with the
Foreign Office than did the British Minister in Peking.'"

--Mike Davis (Late Victorian Holocausts, pp. 298-301)

"...William Digby, principal chronicler of the 1876 Madras famine,
prophesized
on the eve of Queen Victoria's death that when 'the part played by the
British
Empire in the nineteenth century is regarded by the historian fifty years
hence, the *unnecessary* deaths of millions of Indians would be its principal
and most notorious monument.' A most eminent Victorian, the famed naturalist
Alfred Russel Wallace, the codiscoverer with Darwin of the theory of natural
selection, passionately agreed. Like Digby, he viewed mass starvation as
*avoidable* political tragedy, not 'natural' disaster....how do we weigh
smug claims about the life-saving benefits of steam transportation and modern
grain markets when so many millions, especially in British India, died
alongside railroad tracks or on the steps of grain depots?"
--Mike Davis (Late Victorian Holocausts, pp. 8-9)

"(Sir Richard) Temple's perverse task was to make relief as repugnant and
ineffective as possible. In zealously following his instructions to the
letter, he became to Indian history what Charles Edward Trevelyan...had
become
to Irish history: the personificatin of free market economics as a mask for
colonial genocide.

In a lightning tour of the famished countryside of the eastern Deccan, Temple
purged a half million people from relief work and forced Madras to follow
Bombay's precedent of requiring starving applicants to travel to dormitory
camps outside their locality for coolie labor on railroad and canal projects.
The deliberately cruel 'distance test' refused work to able-bodied adults and
older children within a ten-mile radius of their homes. Famished laborers
were also prohibited from seeking relief until 'it was certified that they
had
become indigent, destitute, and capable of only a modicum of labour'....

In self-proclaimed Benthamite 'experiment' that eerily prefigured later Nazi
research on minimal human subsistence diets in concentration camps, Temple
cut rations for male coolies, whom he compared to 'a school full of
refractory
children', down to one pound of rice per diem *despite* medical testimony
that ryots--once 'strapping fine fellows'--were now 'little more than
animated
skeletons...utterly unfit for any work'. (Noting that felons traditionally
received two pounds of rice per day, one district official suggested that 'it
would be better to shoot down the wretches than to prolong their misery in
the way proposed'.)...In the event, the 'Temple wage', as it became known,
provided *less* sustenance for hard labor than the diet inside the infamous
Buchenwald concentration camp and less than half of them modern caloric
standard recommended for adult males by the Indian government....

Temple meanwhile proclaimed that he had put 'the famine under control'.
(Digby sourly responded that 'a famine can scarcely be sid to be adequately
controlled which leaves one-fourth of the people dead'.)...Exactly as medical
officials had warned, the 'Temple wage' combined with heavy physical labor
and dreadful sanitation turned the work camps into *extermination camps*....
Post-mortem examinations, moreover, showed that the chief cause of death...
was textbook starvation, with full-grown men reduced to under sixty pounds of
weight....

Temple's ferocious response to reports of mass mortality in the camps was to
blame the victims...'Nor will many be inclined to grieve for the fate which
they brought upon themselves, and which terminated lives of idleness and too
often of crime.'"

--Mike Davis (Late Victorian Holocausts, pp. 37-41)

During the Second World War, there was a great famine in Bengal, which
caused a few million deaths, toward which any British relief was much too
little and too late.

"Jinnah stated in the Legislative Assembly in New Delhi that the British
were 'irresponsible' and 'incompetent' to have allowed the famine to develop,
and pointed out that Churchill's administration would not have remained in
office for twenty-four hours if people had been dying of starvation in their
thousands every week on the streets of Britain....Wavell wrote that he
considered the Cabinet's stand over food imports to Bengal to be nothing
short
of 'scandalous', and threatened resignation if nothing was done to halt the
deaths from starvation....Under pressure from Wavell and Amery, Churchill
asked Roosevelt if he could borrow US ships to bring wheat from Australia....
The Americans refused to assist, for fear of damaging their own war
effort....

In February 1944, when the worst of the crisis had passed, Wavell sent a
telegram to Amery which read: 'Bengal famine was one of the greatest
disasters
that has befallen any people under British rule and damage to our reputation
here...is incalculable. Atempt by His Majesty's Government to prove on the
basis of admittedly defective statistics that we an do without help demanded
would be regarded here by all opinion British and Indian as utterly
indefensible...'"

--Patrick French (Liberty or Death, pp. 182-3)

'Heart of Smugness' by Maria Misra (23 July 2002, The Guardian):
'Unlike Belgium, Britain is still complacently ignoring the gory cruelties
of its empire.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...761626,00.html

Here are some reviews of 'Late Victorian Holocausts':

http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/...424896,00.html

http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/...436292,00.html

'I was born to destroy this evil government.'
--Mohandas Gandhi (1930, on the British Raj in India)

--Nick


Yes. I think I knew all of this already.

Mark
  #15  
Old August 5th 03, 04:45 AM
Nick
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Chapman billy wrote in message m...
In article ,
says...
...
The Narvik expedition started long after the Winter war was over.


In the planning stages of Narvik the plight of the Finns was very much
in the public eye. Here is what Churchill, or one of his aids, wrote in
volume one of "The Second World War".

"All the resentment felt against the Soviet Government
for the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact was fanned into flame by
this latest exhibition of brutal bullying and aggression.
With this was also mingled scorn for the inefficiency
displayed by the Soviet troops and enthusiasm for the
gallant Finns. In spite of the Great War which had been
declared, there was a keen desire to help the Finns by
aircraft and other precious war material and by
volunteers from Britain, from the United States, and
still more from France. Alike for the munition supplies
and the volunteers there was only one possible route to
Finland. The iron-ore port of Narvik with its railroad
over the mountains to the Swedish iron mines acquired a
new sentimental if not strategic significance."
(volume I, p 429, Cassell 1948).

"I sympathised ardently with the Finns and supported all
proposals for their aid; and I welcomed this new and
favourable breeze as a means of achieving the major
strategic advantage of cutting off the vital iron-ore
supplies of Germany. If Narvik was to become a kind of
Allied base to supply the Finns, it would certainly be
easy to prevent the German ships loading ore at the port
and sailing safely down the leads to Germany."
(page 430).


Dear Simon,

Here are some comments about Allied plans to intervene with regard to Finland:

"On 30 November 1939, the Soviet Union had invaded Finland. Public opinion
displayed widespread sympathy for the 'plucky little Finns' whose initial
military successes aroused admiration. This conflict had no bearing on the
wider war, since Finland was not at war with Germany, and the Allies were not
at war with Russia. In France, where anti-Communist feeling was strong, many
people convinced themselves that hitting at Russia by helping the Finns also
represented an oblique way of weakening Germany. The Northern Department of
the Foreign Office, which was quite anti-Soviet, shared this view on the
grounds that Germany was receiving considerable economic aid from Russia.
Generally, however, in Britain, where anti-Communism was less intense than in
France, such arguments had less appeal, and the idea of intervening on behalf
of the Finns would have gone no further had it not also offered the prospect
of undermining Germany's war economy by cutting off its imports of iron ore
from Sweden. In the winter months, when the Baltic froze, most of those
exports went via the Norwegian port of Narvik. From the start of the war,
the First Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill, had wanted to play mines
in the waters off Narvik. This proposal had been rejected by the British War
Cabinet, but it was now overtaken by an even more ambitious proposal, namely
to send an expedition to Scandinavia. Its *pretext* would be to assist the
Finns, but the *real objective* would be to seize the Swedish iron ore fields
en route.

At an SWC meeting on 5 February, the British rejected what Cadogan described
as France's 'silly scheme' for an expedition to the Finnish port of Petsamo,
on the grounds it would bring the Allies into direct conflict with the Soviet
Union, but they did accept an alternative French plan for an expedition to
Narvik, having first requested the approval of neutral Norway and Sweden....
Not surprisingly Norway and Sweden, desperate to preserve their neutrality,
refused their consent. The British assumed that this meant the operation could
not proceed. The French claimed it had been agreed to go ahead regardless.
Daladier became increasingly incensed at British procrastination."

--Julian Jackson (The Fall of France, 2003, Oxford University Press, p. 81)

Military expeditions have a habit of proceeding no matter what the change in
circumstance....


"Meanwhile Daladier's own position became more precarious as the situation of
the Finns worsened. At the start of February, without consulting the British,
Daladier recklessly and desperately promised Finland 100 planes and 50000 men
by the end of the month, without having any idea where they would come from.
After the signature of the Soviet-Finnish armistice, Daladier was unable to
avoid a parliamentary debate. His speech in Parliament on 13 March contained
some remarks so wild that they were struck off the record; it was rumoured
that he had been drinking....On 20 March, Daladier called a motion of
confidence. Although he won by 239 votes to 1, there were 300 abstentions.
These included members of both the pro- and anti-war factions. Daladier
felt that he had no alternative but to resign."
--Julian Jackson (The Fall of France, p. 124)

--Nick
  #16  
Old August 10th 03, 01:14 AM
Nick
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(Sigvaldi Eggertsson) wrote in message . com...
(PJDBAD) wrote in message ...
The spin on the Finns is that they weren't allies of Germany but
cobelligerents against a common enemy, the Soviet Union. I'm willing to
buy into the idea that there is a difference between the two.


When the Finns, in the late summer of 1941, stopped upon reaching the
old border, most people were ready to buy the idea, but when they went
on to more conquests (dreams of "Greater Finland" etc.) few considered
them to be more than mere allies of the Nazis.


Dear Mr. Eggertsson,

Your post was interesting. When you wrote that "*few* considered them to be
more than mere allies of the Nazis", to which people(s) did your "few" refer?

As far as I know, there remains much sensitivity in Finland today about its
participation in the Continuation War (1941-44). Naturally, the Finns prefer
to place as much distance as possible between their objectives and those of
Hitler during that war against their common enemy, the Soviet Union. My
impression is that there were some Finnish nationalists who dreamed of
annexing East Karelia, but I am not certain of how influential they were
in determining Finland's national policies.

As far as I know, during the Continuation War, the military collaboration
between the Finns and the Germans was substantial, though not quite complete.
Finland declined the German invitation to join a direct assault on Leningrad,
but the Finnish forces were an integral part of that city's terrible blockade.
The Finns provided logistical support for the German attempt to capture or to
interdict Murmansk, a vital Soviet seaport for convoys from the United Kingdom.
Finnish and German units often fought alongside in combined operations, and
individual Finnish and German soldiers tended to work well together. And some
Finnish volunteers fought in the Waffen-SS, under direct German command.

Although the Finns (apart from those in the Waffen-SS) were not generally
motivated by the Nazi ideology that tended to dehumanise the Soviet peoples
as vermin, given their bitter memories of the Winter War (1939-40), the Finns
also tended to fight the Soviet soldiers ruthlessly and to treat the Soviet
civilians who were suspected of aiding partisans with hardly any more mercy
than the Germans. In Axis-occupied territories, Soviet civilians feared
military reprisals from the Finns as well as those from the Germans.

In fairness to the Finns, it was difficult for them to adopt a more independent
position because they depended nearly completely, apart from reusing captured
Soviet arms, on the Germans to supply their heavy weapons. For example, late
in the war, the Germans finally agreed to provide the Ilmavoimat (Finnish Air
Force) with some modern Messerschmitt Bf-109G fighters, which the veteran
Finnish pilots then proceeded to fly with much success.

Of course, Finland's most important achievement of the Continuation War--at
the cost of many lives and some territory (vis-a-vis the 1939 border)--was
simply in preserving its national independence.

"The cruelty of memory manifests itself in remembering what is dispelled in
forgetfulness."
--Naguib Mahfouz

--Nick
  #17  
Old August 12th 03, 05:32 AM
Nick
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Chapman billy wrote in message m...
In article ,
says...
Simon,
Thanks for writing. I appreciate your mentioning a fact that you thought
that I had overlooked. Actually, I already knew that Scandinavia properly
comprises Denmark, Norway, and Sweden, though in informal usage Finland
has been included.


Nick,
Thank you for your response. It is a shame that so many contributors appear
to be unclubbable men;


Bourbon: Shame and eternal shame, nothing but shame!
Let us die in honour: once more back again...
--Shakespeare (Henry V)

Dear Simon,

Yes, I would like to encourage more women to contribute to these 'discussions',
but this newsgroup's atmosphere sometimes has not been too welcoming.

For example, NoMoreChess posted an apparent 'joke' about how to rape a woman:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?G2EF21675

Evidently, there are some major differences among the writers here with
respect to what conventions and norms--if any--should govern their behaviour.
You and I (and many others) seem to be more or less in accord about the
requirement for some basic rules of conduct. On the other hand, there are
some writers who apparently believe: "This is Usenet--anything goes."

For example, in the thread, "Will anybody who voted for Sam Sloan dare to
to speak up?" (21 July 2003), Briarroot wrote to Mark Houlsby
"...Rules of the newsgroup? ROTFLMAO Does little man want his mama?..."

In the thread, "A new enemy of Lev Khariton" (9 July 2003), Briarroot wrote
to me: "Now this I readily admit to. You deserve to be insulted, roundly
and repeatedly. I consider it my duty to expose you..."

Someone else has advised me: "That's why God created killfiles."

so perhaps this is a cri de coeur for more soldiers of the monstrous
regiment to trumpet in this group?


I found it quite refreshing to enjoy a civilised discussion with you and
Mr. Eggertsson here in this sub-thread.

Anyhow, I don't see the harm in an occasional off topic post.


We have been writing in an undeclared off-topic thread (created by Bill Smythe).

Here's my view of some chess newsgroups:

rec.games.chess.politics is a de facto USCF politics group, which I don't
follow because I have no interest in USCF politics and minimal interest
in the sociology/pathology of that part of United States political culture.
Unfortunately, RGCP participants seem to cross-post too frequently here.

rec.games.chess.analysis is the place for technical discussions of chess.

rec.games.chess.misc is the place for general conversations, which need not
be restricted to chess, that might take place at a chess club in real life.

I thought it best to find out indirectly whether you were seeking to anneal
the meaning of what Tim Hanke wrote,


Tim Hanke is not a historian, and I don't take him seriously as a writer on
history. What I write about history is not altered by whatever he writes.

"The historian has much to answer for. History--that is, written history--has
made and unmade States, given courage to the oppressed and undermined the
oppressor, has justified aggression and overridden law."
--C.V. Wedgwood (Velvet Studies, p. 154)

or whether you were being careless in lobbing Nordic Finland into Scandinavia.
Most people who have called the Finns Scandinavian that I have come across
genuinely have been unaware of the inaccuracy; somewhat implausible in your
particular instance, but then you usually take great pains to achieve your
desired effect in your postings.


Some of the effects of my posts have definitely not been desired or intended
by me. I have been frustrated by some persistent misreadings of my posts.

Yet thanks very much for expressing your recognition that at least I 'usually
take great pains' in my writing to make my meanings clear enough to the able
and willing reader. Within the limits of my time and space and knowledge and
energy (I tend to be less attentive at the end of a long day), I attempt to
be as accurate as practicable. Given those limits, sometimes I have to
simplify a complex issue, and occasionally my memory falls short of perfection.
(For instance, based on a collection of his best games, I once wrote that
C.H.O'D Alexander had died in 1973, when he actually had died in 1974.)

Also, I have been (and perhaps I still am) the target of a campaign of personal
defamation from a few extreme right-wing Americans--Tim Hanke, StanB, and
Briarroot--who apparently vehemently object on political grounds to my writing
about history. They have made ludicrous attempts to distort my writings.

For example, in the thread, "If chess pieces could talk" (5 August 2003),
StanB wrote that my phase "*only* the most ignorant or prejudiced Americans"
implies that I must be referring to "many Americans", which was his phrase.
StanB then denounced me as an anti-American bigot. So I wondered why StanB
believed that "many Americans" (his phrase) were included among "only the
most ignorant or prejudiced Americans". StanB did not respond.

I did not write that Finland is part of Scandinavia. My intention (which
was understood by Sigvaldi Eggertsson in his response) was to suggest one
reason why Sweden did not join the Allies. If Sweden had done that, then
it would have gone to war against its neighbour, Finland, which would have
been quite unwelcome to many Swedes. Finland has a substantial Swedish
minority, and the Swedes traditionally have felt close to the Finns. For
example, with the approval of their government, many Swedes volunteered to
fight for Finland in its 1939-40 'Winter War' against the Soviet Union.
And most Swedes seemed sympathetic toward Finland in its 1941-44
'Continuation War' against the Soviet Union.


You are being very delicate in not mentioning that Finland was once part of
the Swedish empire, along with a large chunk of the Baltic...


Sweden's King Charles XII conquered much Russian territory until his decisive
defeat at the Battle of Poltava in 1709.

For further reading:
"The Battle of Poltava: the Birth of the Russian Empire" by Peter Englund

The Finns had to wait until the Russian Revolution before being able to slip
their moorings and begin their voyage as an independent state; unfortunately
not without a vicious civil war.


During the Winter War (1939-40), the Soviets hoped to divide the Finns by
exploiting any lasting bitterness from Finland's civil war. But the
solidarity of Finnish nationalism was too strong to be subverted.

It is my impression that the Norwegians bear the brunt of the Swedes'
"Irish" (for want of a better word) jokes...


Yes, as I recall, there's one about a Norwegian who uses sandpaper as a map.

All in all Finland has an impressive record as an independent state: you
doubtless recall the bilateral trade agreements with the Soviet Union, and
the potentially disastrous impact upon the Finnish economy when that empire
collapsed. Yet the Finns managed to pull themselves round.


Yes, it was already impressive that Finland--unlike Estonia, Latvia, and
Lithuania--was able to preserve its national independence during the 1940s.

Of course, another reason why Sweden did not join the Allies was that
Hitler never got around to invading Sweden.


As long as Germany was assured of adequate supplies of iron ore and ball
bearings from Sweden, Hitler did not believe that there was a strategic
necessity for invasion.

"Lire et relire l'histoire; c'est la seule philosophie."
--Napoleon

--Nick
  #18  
Old August 13th 03, 06:09 AM
Nick
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-remove- (Mhoulsby) wrote in message ...
From:
(Nick)
Date: 14/07/03 02:55 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:
(snipped)
"For many years, British books on India formed a small but precise genre of
their own, involving the use of phrases like 'the heady smell of spices and
woodsmoke', and descriptive invocations of cruel maharajahs, sly holymen,
rebellious tribesmen and the heat of the Deccan, together with occasional
appearances by tigers, missionaries, memsahibs, gymkhanas, Kipling and
tiffin. This extended into histories of the edifice lately termed 'the Raj',
and although it is now rare to find imperial dogma articulated so openly, a
nostalgic subtext still hovers beneath the pages of many books, like a loyal
native bearer lurking discreetly under the verandah of one of M.M. Kaye's
bungalows."

--Patrick French (1997, Liberty or Death, xxiv)

Dear Mr. Houlsby,

I did not intend to imply that you were ignorant about the
historical record of British imperialism in India. Yet books
are still being published that tend to present a highly idealised
narrative of British imperialism, such as 'Empire' by Niall
Ferguson (2002), a companion book to a British television series.

"'Right-wing' critics of liberalism in the Raj looked with satisfaction to
the journalism of Sir James Fitzjames Stephen, who in 1883 famously said
that the Raj was 'founded not on consent but on conquest'....Once Indian
nationalism became an even half-serious proposition, the Raj could not long
endure. Racist, by any standards, it undoubtedly was; economically
exploitative too, as nearly all modern historians wish to point out; but
the British will to govern by force had its limits when consent was absent.
The massacre of protestors at Amritsar by General Dyer--379 killed and
1200 wounded--on 13 April 1919, followed by a proclamation of martial law,
was a disgrace from which the British Raj never recovered its
semi-legitimate self-estimation for decency and justice.
Thirty years before independence it sealed the Raj's fate..."
--A.N. Wilson (The Victorians, pp. 500-1)


'Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim gun, and they have not.'
--Hilaire Belloc

On 8 July 1920, Winston Churchill spoke in the House of Commons
to denounce General Dyer. Notwithstanding a vote of support in
the House of Lords, General Dyer was forced into early retirement,
though he would be consoled by a fund of more than 26000 pounds
(a fortune in 1920), which had been donated on his behalf by
Britons who approved of what he had done at Amritsar.

On 13 March 1940, the Amritsar Massacre was partially 'avenged'.
Sir Michael O'Dwyer, who, as the Governor of the Punjab, had
fully supported General Dyer's bloody actions, was assassinated
in London by Udham Singh, a Sikh who reportedly had been among
those Indians who were fired upon in 1919. (Udham Singh might
have been intimately connected with one of those killed.)
After being convicted for murder, Udham Singh was hanged on
31 July 1940. In 1975, Udham Singh's exhumed remains were
returned to his homeland. In 1996, a college of Punjab
Technical University was named in Udham Singh's honour.

Some Irish nationalists approved of Udham Singh's deed.

"The same article (in a British newspaper) refers to the
Indian hero Udham Singh who was executed in London in 1940
for the shooting of Sir Michael O'Dwyer who had been governor
of the Punjab at the time of the Amritsar Massacre. We are
proud to have the name of this Indian hero linked with those
of Dunne and O'Sullivan (two Irishman who had been executed
for killing a British Field Marshal), even though the intention
in linking them was to defame them. Our only regret in the
incident is that it should have been an Irishman who had sold
himself to our national enemy, who had by his part in the
butchery and oppression of the Indian people so richly deserved
the punishment meted out to him by Udham Singh."
--Ant Eireannach Aontaithe (United Irishman) (July-August 1949)

During the Second World War, there was a great famine in Bengal, which
caused a few million deaths, toward which any British relief was much too
little and too late.

"Jinnah stated in the Legislative Assembly in New Delhi that the British
were 'irresponsible' and 'incompetent' to have allowed the famine to develop,
and pointed out that Churchill's administration would not have remained in
office for twenty-four hours if people had been dying of starvation in their
thousands every week on the streets of Britain....Wavell wrote that he
considered the Cabinet's stand over food imports to Bengal to be nothing
short of 'scandalous', and threatened resignation if nothing was done to
halt the deaths from starvation....Under pressure from Wavell and Amery,
Churchill asked Roosevelt if he could borrow US ships to bring wheat from
Australia....The Americans refused to assist, for fear of damaging their
own war effort....
--Patrick French (Liberty or Death, pp. 182-3)


As a child in Bengal, Amartya Sen witnessed the wartime famine.
Today, Amartya Sen is the Master of Trinity College, Cambridge
University.

'There are Englishmen who reproach themselves with having
governed the country badly. Why? Because the Indians show
no enthusiasm for their rule. I claim that the English have
governed India very well, but their error is to expect
enthusiasm from the people they administer.'
--Adolf Hitler

'I have never left room for any doubt of my belief that the
existence of this (British) empire is an inestimable factor of
value for the whole of human cultural and economic life. By
whatever means Great Britain has acquired her colonial
territories--and I know that they were those of force and often
brutality--nevertheless, I know full well that no other empire
has ever come into being in any other way, and that in the final
resort it is not so much the methods that are taken into account
in history as success, and not the success of the methods as such,
but rather the general good which the methods yield. Now there
is no doubt that the Anglo-Saxon people have accomplished
immeasurable colonizing work in the world. For this work I have
a sincere admiration....'
--Adolf Hitler (28 April 1939, speech to the Reichstag)

'Heart of Smugness' by Maria Misra (23 July 2002, The Guardian):
'Unlike Belgium, Britain is still complacently ignoring the gory cruelties
of its empire.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...761626,00.html

"If the history of British rule in India were to be condensed
into a single fact, it is this: there was no increase in India's
per capita income from 1757 to 1947. Indeed, in the last half
of the nineteenth century, income probably declined by more than
50 percent....Moreover in the age of Kipling, that 'glorious
imperial half century' from 1872 to 1921, the life expectancy of
ordinary Indians fell by a staggering 20 percent, a deterioration
in human health probably without precedent in the subcontinent's
long history of war and invasion."
--Mike Davis (Late Victorian Holocausts, pp. 311-2)

"Davis has given us a book of substantial contemporary relevance
as well as great historical interest."
--Amartya Sen (winner of the 1998 Nobel Prize in Economics)

Here are some reviews of 'Late Victorian Holocausts':

http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/...424896,00.html

http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/...436292,00.html


"He seemed to appeal for protection in the insult that had
befallen him, and they, in instinctive homage, rose to their feet.
But every human act in the East is tainted with officialism, and
while honouring him they condemned Aziz and India. Fielding
realised this, and he remained seated. It was an ungracious, a
caddish thing to do, perhaps an unsound thing to do, but he felt
he had been passive long enough, and that he might be drawn into
the wrong current if he did not make a stand."
--E.M. Forster (A Passage to India)

--Nick
  #19  
Old August 13th 03, 05:39 PM
Ybbun
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All this about english being spoken correctly... it's the sort of
stuff up with which I can not put.
  #20  
Old August 15th 03, 10:34 PM
Chapman billy
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Default Because

In article
,
says...
In the thread, "A new enemy of Lev Khariton" (9 July 2003), Briarroot wrote
to me: "Now this I readily admit to. You deserve to be insulted, roundly
and repeatedly. I consider it my duty to expose you..."


Dear Nick,

It would be better if these mini-wars ended.

Someone else has advised me: "That's why God created killfiles."


I believe that was William Hyde, my apologies to Mr. Hyde
if I am unwittingly maligning him. I must confess I have
a "killfile" with Sam Sloan as its only member. I can
accept much, but he writes things that could interfere
with the ability of others to earn a livelihood; he
asserts that a person is dead when he has no reliable
source, something that could easily upset a close friend
or relation of the "deceased"; and he broadcasts the
contact details, home address, phone number, and email
address, of others without their permission. IMO Matt
Nemmers has him well summed up, albeit in more brutal
language than I would use.


I found it quite refreshing to enjoy a civilised discussion with you and
Mr. Eggertsson here in this sub-thread.


So did I, it is a pity that I can't see any more posts
from Mr. Eggertsson as he appears quite well clued up.


Here's my view of some chess newsgroups:


rec.games.chess.politics is a de facto USCF politics group, which I don't
follow because I have no interest in USCF politics and minimal interest
in the sociology/pathology of that part of United States political culture.
Unfortunately, RGCP participants seem to cross-post too frequently here.


I had a brief look at it and ran a mile.

rec.games.chess.analysis is the place for technical discussions of chess.


My suspicion is that the standard is rather low, which is
why I've never checked.

rec.games.chess.misc is the place for general conversations, which need not
be restricted to chess, that might take place at a chess club in real life.


There's some truth in the club analogy, if one adds the
proviso that it is after the match is over, at least
where I am concerned.

I thought it best to find out indirectly whether you were seeking to anneal
the meaning of what Tim Hanke wrote,


Tim Hanke is not a historian, and I don't take him seriously as a writer on
history. What I write about history is not altered by whatever he writes.


Tim Hanke certainly isn't a historian, but he does appear
to have read a fair bit. I should be extremely surprised
if he did not know about Sweden's neutrality during
WWII, and the iron ore shipments, further than that I
cannot say.

Also, I have been (and perhaps I still am) the target of a campaign of personal
defamation from a few extreme right-wing Americans--Tim Hanke, StanB, and
Briarroot--who apparently vehemently object on political grounds to my writing
about history. They have made ludicrous attempts to distort my writings.


My inclination in this group is to keep the peace, so I
must remain on the fence, comfortable or otherwise.

You are being very delicate in not mentioning that Finland was once part of
the Swedish empire, along with a large chunk of the Baltic...


Sweden's King Charles XII conquered much Russian territory until his decisive
defeat at the Battle of Poltava in 1709.


That was a disaster, but much of Sweden's Baltic
territory was Swedish long before he came on the throne.
Besides he concentrated upon his "serious" opponent
(Poland) after Narva, a mistake he came to regret.

It is my impression that the Norwegians bear the brunt of the Swedes'
"Irish" (for want of a better word) jokes...


Yes, as I recall, there's one about a Norwegian who uses sandpaper as a map.


Ah well, let's try and provoke the Finns. The following
joke has been attributed to Krushchev, although whether
this is true I cannot say. To understand it one must bear
in mind the Finnish reputation for extreme taciturnity.

Three Finns went hunting together early one morning.
After three hours they came across some animal tracks,
the first Finn turned to his companions and said: "look!
a bear." Hours later the frustrated Finns gave up the
silent hunt and started to head home. En route they
noticed some more tracks, "a fox", said number two. The
hunt was renewed with equal vigour, and less sound if
that were possible, but with no more success than the
first time round. At the end of a thoroughly unsatisfying
day, the third Finn furiously addressed his companions:
"I'm never going hunting with you two again, you talk too
much!"

By the way, you may have to substitute more suitable
animals for hunting. I know as much about hunting as I do
about ballroom dancing.


Regards,

Simon.
 




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