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Alexander Zaitsev



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 18th 03, 07:32 AM
Roman M. Parparov
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Default Alexander Zaitsev

Nick wrote:
Alexander Zaitsev (1935-1971) was the first Soviet GM from Vladivostok.
His best result was his tie for first place in the 1968 Soviet Championship,
though he lost to GM Polugayevsky in the playoff. GM Zaitsev died of
thrombosis after an operation on his leg.

It has been hypothesized that GM Alexander Zaitsev might have become one of
the best Soviet GMs if he had been able to train and to compete regularly with
the stronger players available in Moscow or Leningrad. Would anyone care to
comment on that hypothesis? Thanks in advance.

--Nick


He was able to compete and he was one of the best, about that the 1968
result tells. Zaitsev was one of the many equals in Soviet chess in
between 1955-1975 among which the firsts were Botwinnik, Smyslov, Tal,
Petrosian and Spassky.

--
Roman M. Parparov - NASA EOSDIS project node at TAU technical manager.
Email: http://www.nasa.proj.ac.il
Phone/Fax: +972-(0)3-6405205 (work), +972-(0)64-669-189 (home)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The economy depends about as much on economists as the weather does on
weather forecasters.
-- Jean-Paul Kauffmann
  #4  
Old July 21st 03, 08:32 AM
Roman M. Parparov
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Default Alexander Zaitsev

Nick wrote:
Chapman billy wrote in message m...
In article
,
says...
Alexander Zaitsev (1935-1971) was the first Soviet GM from Vladivostok.
His best result was his tie for first place in the 1968 Soviet Championship,
though he lost to GM Polugayevsky in the playoff. GM Zaitsev died of
thrombosis after an operation on his leg.

It has been hypothesized that GM Alexander Zaitsev might have become one of
the best Soviet GMs if he had been able to train and to compete regularly
with the stronger players available in Moscow or Leningrad. Would anyone
care to comment on that hypothesis? Thanks in advance.


This was the same reason advanced to me by a leading figure in British chess
in a casual, but not confidential, conversation when I asked him why the
obviously highly talented Lev Psakhis had not progressed further. Someone who
won the Soviet Championship twice (once jointly with a young Garry Kasparov)
was plainly not weak.


Simon,

With all due respect to GM Lev Psakhis's past circumstances, GM Alexander
Zaitsev, in Vladivostok, was far more distant from the centres of Soviet chess.
If GM Zaitsev were still alive in Vladivostok today, however, then it might
be more convenient for him to compete against some Chinese GMs in Beijing.

--Nick


Liquidating the geographical illiteracy, there is no significant
difference between Krasnoyarsk and Vladivostok from the cultural closeness to
Moscow point of view.

Moreover, considering A. Zaitsev was similar in age to B. Spassky, I
doubt he would be competing much today.

And the most important thing, Zaitsev was not disadvantaged and had
plenty of competitions. He died early, that is what stopped him, not the
geography.

--
Roman M. Parparov - NASA EOSDIS project node at TAU technical manager.
Email:
http://www.nasa.proj.ac.il
Phone/Fax: +972-(0)3-6405205 (work), +972-(0)64-669-189 (home)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The economy depends about as much on economists as the weather does on
weather forecasters.
-- Jean-Paul Kauffmann
  #5  
Old July 22nd 03, 01:20 PM
Mhoulsby
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Default Alexander Zaitsev

From: "Roman M. Parparov"
Date: 22/07/03 07:02 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

Nick wrote:

What 'geographical illiteracy'? I knew the *exact location* of
Vladivostok. But I did not recall that GM Lev Psakhis was from
Krasnoyarsk (a fact that had *not* been mentioned previously in
this thread). Anyhow, I did *not* write anything about any
supposed 'significant difference between Krasnoyarsk and
Vladivostok from the *cultural closeness to Moscow* point of view'.
I did not mention anything at all about 'cultural closeness'.
What I did write was that 'GM Zaitsev, in Vladivostok, was far
more distant (geographically, of course) from the centres of Soviet
chess (Moscow and Leningrad)'. That happens to be a geographically
accurate statement, not a 'geographically illiterate' one.

What you still fail to realize, that Vladivostok and Krasnoyarsk
are just about in the same economical-geographical region of Russia,
and moreover you still fail to acknowledge that the culturual (pseudo)
isolation of L. Psakhis would be as bad as A. Zaitsev's.

Moreover, considering A. Zaitsev was similar in age to B. Spassky,
I doubt he would be competing much today.


I would tend to agree, though GM Viktor Korchnoi (born in 1931)
still competes regularly at a high level of tournaments. Anyhow,
I did *not* write anything about *how often* GM Alexander Zaitsev
might be competing if he were still alive today. What I did write
was that 'if GM Zaitsev were still alive in Vladivostok today,
however, then it might be more convenient for him to compete against
some Chinese GMs in Beijing' because Beijing is closer (geographically)
than Moscow to Vladivostok. Today, of course, unlike during his actual
chess career, GM Alexander Zaitsev could have had the option of playing
on the internet.


Considering it was extremely easy for well-established GMs to move to
Moscow or Leningrad, I doubt that A. Zaitsev would be limited to
Beijing.


Dear Roman,

Once again I take it upon myself characteristically to barge into one of your
debates here.

This time, however, it is not to support your argument.

With respect, I submit that you seem to be behaving in an uncharacteristically
disingenuous manner.

We both know that in the past I have accused you of being uncharacteristically
disingenuous: on that occasion (your reply to the troll Dr. Hypermodern) I was
*completely wrong* and was pleased that you took the trouble to correct my
mistake.

On this occasion, it appears to me that, for a second time, you are
misinterpreting what Nick has written and, if I may say so, your tone seems
disagreeable (once again, I may be wrong about that).

What Nick wrote is this:

"If GM Zaitsev were still alive in Vladivostok *TODAY*, however, then
it might be more convenient for him to compete against some Chinese GMs in
Beijing."

The added emphasis is mine, of course.

Your retort:

"Considering it *WAS* extremely easy for established GMs to move to Moscow or
Leningrad..." (once again, the added emphasis is mine) implicitly harks back to
the Soviet era when many more GMs were pretty much guaranteed a living.

Your argument presupposes that, *had he lived*, Alexander Zaitsev would have
moved either to Moscow or Leningrad *during the Soviet era, when it was a smart
career move*.

Intrinsically, this is not at all an unreasonable presuppostion.

Do please note, however, that Nick was doing no more than *presupposing* what
Alexander Zaitsev *might* do *if* he was alive today in Vladivostok.

In other words, your argument is clear to me.

What is not clear to me is whether Nick's argument (*If* he was alive today *in
Vladivostok*) has been clear to you, either before or after this post. It's
been clearly presented *three times* now.

Any thoughts?

Best
Mark
  #6  
Old July 23rd 03, 05:13 PM
Kevin Croxen
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Default Alexander Zaitsev




I suppose one potential test of the "Vladivostok-Beijing" theory would be
to examine the playing patterns of whatever current Vladivostok players
there are who are becoming strong enough to merit more than regional
attention.

Are these hypothetical strong present-day Vladivostok players going in
greater numbers to Moscow or to Beijing for additional experience? Or, are
they just sitting tight and playing only in Vladivostok? Or, finally, are
are there currently just no Vladivostok players of more than local
significance?

--Kevin
  #7  
Old July 24th 03, 12:07 AM
Mark Houlsby
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Default Alexander Zaitsev

(Kevin Croxen) wrote in message ...
I suppose one potential test of the "Vladivostok-Beijing" theory would be
to examine the playing patterns of whatever current Vladivostok players
there are who are becoming strong enough to merit more than regional
attention.

Are these hypothetical strong present-day Vladivostok players going in
greater numbers to Moscow or to Beijing for additional experience? Or, are
they just sitting tight and playing only in Vladivostok? Or, finally, are
are there currently just no Vladivostok players of more than local
significance?

--Kevin


Kevin,

At the risk of seeming outrageously sycophantic, your posts are
usually
thought-provoking, and this one is no exception.

In truth, I cannot answer any of your questions, because, alas, I do
not possess
the prerequisite knowledge.

It would be most interesting, for me at least, to learn the answers,
so if anyone out there is less ignorant in this regard, please post...

An observation: this thread seems to have become a by now traditional
battle for Nick, with respect to his having to cajole others into
reading more carefully (in this case: Roman Parparov, who is,
justifiably, one of the most respected members of these groups).

I fully appreciate that you, too, seem to have observed this very
phenomenon - any credible answers to your questions, while they would
not settle the matter, would certainly do no harm to the prospects of
its being settled.

It seems to me (and I may be wrong, but in this case I don't believe
so) that this has become a question of what *one particular dead guy*
might or might not be doing if he was alive today...

The deceased and the subjunctive make prolific bedfellows....

Thanks for your post.

Mark
  #9  
Old July 24th 03, 01:54 PM
Mhoulsby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Alexander Zaitsev

From: (Nick)
Date: 24/07/03 00:36 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

-remove- (Mhoulsby) wrote in message
... (to Roman Parparov):
Dear Roman,
Once again I take it upon myself characteristically to barge into one of

your
debates here.


Dear Mr. Houlsby,

Actually, I did *not* regard myself as being engaged in a 'debate' with Roman
Parparov, apart from defending myself against his unwarranted assumption that
I am 'geographically illiterate'. I expect that Mr. Parparov knows more than
I do about the lives of Soviet chess-players, and I do appreciate his view,
which evidently differs from GM Andrew Soltis's view, on GM Alexander
Zaitsev's
chess career and potential. Let's hope that someone who actually knew the
late
GM Alexander Zaitsev may express his or her views here too.

This time, however, it is not to support your argument.
With respect, I submit that you seem to be behaving in an

uncharacteristically
disingenuous manner....


Unfortunately, Roman Parparov tended to criticise what I did *not* write
instead of addressing what I did write. In fairness to Mr. Parparov,
however,
I am not certain whether he was 'behaving in an uncharacteristically
disingenuous manner', as you wrote 'with respect', or whether he simply kept
misreading my posts. As you know, misreading other people's posts is an all
too common affliction here.

--Nick


Dear Mr. Bourbaki,

Not for the first time, you are absolutely correct: I do, indeed, know that
"...misreading other people's posts" is an all-too-common affliction here.

For example, Kevin's surname is spelt: "CroxEn", not "CroxOn"....

Best
Mark
  #10  
Old July 24th 03, 04:36 PM
Kevin Croxen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Alexander Zaitsev

In article , Nick wrote:
(Kevin Croxen) wrote in message ...
I suppose one potential test of the "Vladivostok-Beijing" theory would be to
examine the playing patterns of whatever current Vladivostok players there
are who are becoming strong enough to merit more than regional attention.


Dear Mr. Croxon,

You might have drawn some inferences that go beyond what I intended to suggest.

Here's what I wrote:
"If GM Zaitsev were still alive in Vladivostok today, however, then it might
be more convenient for him to compete against some Chinese GMs in Beijing."


Exactly so. Therefore, one might reason, if it were more convenient for
our hypothetical modern-day living Zaitsev to compete in Beijing than
Moscow, it must also be more convenient for actual living Vladivostok
players to play in Beijing than Moscow. Since chess players, like anyone
else, tend to follow the path of least resistance to greatest rewards, we
might see some evidence of an increased presence of Vladivostok players in
Beijing. If there is, in fact, no evidence of Vladivostok players in
Beijing while they continue to turn up in Moscow, one would be forced to
conclude that either there are no players in Vladivostok of sufficient
strength to compete in a foreign country, as opposed to Moscow, or that it
is in fact not convenient for strong, developing players to hop over the
border to Beijing, in preference to Moscow, and that our hypothetical
modern-day living, playing, Zaitsev would also not have found it
convenient to do so.

What we lack is knowledgeable information about the strength of the
current upper echelon of Vladivostok players, and, as it were, the
"migratory pattern" of these players.


Though it does all begin to sound like a web project: "The Virtual
Zaitsev". Perhaps Tim can incorporate it into his next project after the
chess trivia game --a chess version of "The Sims".



I did not foresee that my casual conjecture about what one individual GM from
Vladivostok *might* do if he were still alive today could be misconstrued as
a formal "'Vladivostok-Beijing' theory" about what all sufficiently strong
chess-players in Vladivostok are or should be doing now.

Here's what I thought at that time:
There are many GMs in Moscow; there are some GMs in Beijing. Vladivostok
is much closer (geographically) to Beijing than to Moscow. So it *might* be
more convenient for a GM from Vladivostok to travel to a tournament in Beijing.

I did not contact Aeroflot in order to confirm the latest specific details of
travel arrangements from Vladivostok to Beijing.


Of course not. We can reserve that step for the eventual article we
publish in "Quarterly of Chess History".


Are these hypothetical strong present-day Vladivostok players going in
greater numbers to Moscow or to Beijing for additional experience? Or, are
they just sitting tight and playing only in Vladivostok? Or, finally, are
there currently just no Vladivostok players of more than local significance?


Given the tendencies of some writers here to address what I did *not* write,
here's some more 'grist for the mill'. When I wrote, "If GM Zaitsev were still
alive in Vladivostok today", I did *not* write anything about the possibility
that a living Alexander Zaitsev might no longer be playing chess. Perhaps
sometime during the hypothetical period (after his real death), 1972-2003,
Zaitsev could have visited Beijing and fallen in love with xiangqi (Chinese
chess) or weiqi (go).

By the way, Vladivostok (which means 'Ruler of the East' in Russian; Mao Zedong
objected to its 'imperialist name') has been compared to San Francisco (or
Wellington, New Zealand) on account of its many hills and seaside views.

--Nick

 




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