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Why is this not objectionable?



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 20th 03, 11:54 PM
Sam Sloan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is this not objectionable?

Here is the full text of Tim Hanke's remark, "Bugger the Chinese". The
context was it came in a debate about the problem of entering Chinese
names in databases. The topic concerned the name of Chinese
Grandmaster Zhang Zhong. Was his family name Zhang or Zhong? Which
should come first?

As an ethnic slur, I consider it to be forgettable, except that Tim
Hanke does it all the time. Almost every day Hanke makes a racist or
sexist remark. Imagine what would happen if George W. Bush said that
he wanted to go mud-wrestling with Hillary Clinton. I am surprised
that you find nothing objectionable about Tim Hanke saying that he
wants to go mud-wrestling with Beatriz Marinello, his election
opponent:

From:Tim Hanke )
Subject: Zhang Zhong revisited
Newsgroups:rec.games.chess.misc
Date:2003-06-02 17:18:59 PST


"Bill Smythe" wrote ...
"Mark Houlsby" wrote:
Surely you meant to write: "Smythe Bill"?! :-)


No, but we Americans (and western Europeans) could reasonably make a
concession to the Chinese. When entering a Chinese name into a Western
database, such as the USCF membership list, enter the entire name in the
family-name field, and leave the given-name field blank. Such names would
appear correctly on both alphabetized lists and paychecks. On lists, they
would appear without commas. The lack of a comma could be an indicator that
the family name is the first name listed.


Bugger the Chinese. Next you will be telling us our calendar is all
wrong too, and this is really 4700, the Year of the Ram.

Tim Hanke (born in 4655, the Year of the Dog)
--
I am a candidate for the U.S. Chess Federation Executive Board in the
2003 election. Please visit my website at http://www.timothyhanke.net.

  #2  
Old July 21st 03, 12:38 AM
Chris Mattern
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is this not objectionable?

"Sam Sloan" wrote in message ...
Here is the full text of Tim Hanke's remark, "Bugger the Chinese". The


He won, you lost, get over it.

Chris Mattern


  #3  
Old July 21st 03, 12:42 AM
Jerome Bibuld
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is this not objectionable?

Heil Dubya!

One of the most racist (" ... As a racist slur, I consider it forgettable ...
") and sexist contributors to this bbs has the gall to pretend that it is
concerned over Tim Hanke's racism and sexism.

Heute Uhmuhrikkka, Afghanistan und Irak. Morgen die ganze Welt
gens una sumus
  #4  
Old July 21st 03, 09:29 PM
John Macnab
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is this not objectionable?

Matt Nemmers wrote:
"Sam Sloan" wrote in message
...
SNIP

As an ethnic slur, I consider it to be forgettable, except that Tim
Hanke does it all the time. Almost every day Hanke makes a racist or
sexist remark. Imagine what would happen if George W. Bush said that
he wanted to go mud-wrestling with Hillary Clinton. I am surprised
that you find nothing objectionable about Tim Hanke saying that he
wants to go mud-wrestling with Beatriz Marinello, his election
opponent:


SNIP

Get over it, Sloan.

You lost -- quit ****in' cryin' about it. Hanke beat you fair and square
and no amount of over-sensitive quibbling over semantics is going to change
that.

You're not Chinese and you'll never get married to Marinello, so WHAT IS
YOUR POINT??? Everyone knows what Tim said and nobody really gives a ****
except you PC commandos out there who want to make a mountain out of every
molehill on the course.

MN


Funny thing, freedom. You'd think every person were entitled to fairly
present an opinion. If you disagree with the post, make an argument.
If you dislike Sam Sloan, aren't you tired of saying it yet?

John

  #5  
Old July 29th 03, 11:42 PM
Don Mihokovich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is this not objectionable?

(Sam Sloan) wrote in message ...
Here is the full text of Tim Hanke's remark, "Bugger the Chinese". The
context was it came in a debate about the problem of entering Chinese
names in databases. The topic concerned the name of Chinese
Grandmaster Zhang Zhong. Was his family name Zhang or Zhong? Which
should come first?

As an ethnic slur, I consider it to be forgettable, except that Tim
Hanke does it all the time. Almost every day Hanke makes a racist or
sexist remark. Imagine what would happen if George W. Bush said that
he wanted to go mud-wrestling with Hillary Clinton. I am surprised
that you find nothing objectionable about Tim Hanke saying that he
wants to go mud-wrestling with Beatriz Marinello, his election
opponent:

From:Tim Hanke )
Subject: Zhang Zhong revisited
Newsgroups:rec.games.chess.misc
Date:2003-06-02 17:18:59 PST


"Bill Smythe" wrote ...
"Mark Houlsby" wrote:
Surely you meant to write: "Smythe Bill"?! :-)


No, but we Americans (and western Europeans) could reasonably make a
concession to the Chinese. When entering a Chinese name into a Western
database, such as the USCF membership list, enter the entire name in the
family-name field, and leave the given-name field blank. Such names would
appear correctly on both alphabetized lists and paychecks. On lists, they
would appear without commas. The lack of a comma could be an indicator that
the family name is the first name listed.


Bugger the Chinese. Next you will be telling us our calendar is all
wrong too, and this is really 4700, the Year of the Ram.

Tim Hanke (born in 4655, the Year of the Dog)

__________________________________________

I have been a critic of Tim's approach to certain subjects (e.g.
admitted "cultural prejudice; at least during the election), but find
it interesting that this question is coming from the King of the
Objectionable.

So how about this "sexual" stuff from Sloan's websites? Is it
objectionable?

Caution: Don't click these links if you are under the age of 18,
and/or offended by "adult" material. Even those not offended by
"adult" material will be offended by some of this, including but not
limited to Sam's "how2rape":

http://www.anusha.com/how2rape.htm
http://www.samsloan.com/pornplot.htm
http://www.samsloan.com/threesom.htm
http://www.samsloan.com/ininlaw.htm
http://www.samsloan.com/got-her.htm
http://www.samsloan.com/catholic.htm
http://www.samsloan.com/chantabu.htm
http://www.samsloan.com/arraign.htm
http://www.ishipress.com/trobrian.htm
http://www.anusha.com/girlspic.htm

I reluctantly post these links just in case there are readers out
there who don't know about Sam's writings. Unfortunately, Sam will
probably love that I posted this because it will get him the website
"hits" he lives for.

KIdDon
  #6  
Old August 20th 03, 06:15 AM
Nick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is this not objectionable?

"Matt Nemmers" wrote in message news:[email protected]
"Sam Sloan" wrote in message
...
SNIP
As an ethnic slur, I consider it to be forgettable, except that Tim
Hanke does it all the time. Almost every day Hanke makes a racist or
sexist remark. Imagine what would happen if George W. Bush said that
he wanted to go mud-wrestling with Hillary Clinton. I am surprised
that you find nothing objectionable about Tim Hanke saying that he
wants to go mud-wrestling with Beatriz Marinello, his election opponent:

SNIP

Get over it, Sloan.
You lost--quit ****in' cryin' about it. Hanke beat you fair and square and
no amount of over-sensitive quibbling over semantics is going to change that.


Mr. Nemmers,

I have no interest in USCF politics. Yet I would agree with you that Sam
Sloan's post sounded mostly like the whining of a loser who was still finding
it too hard to accept the fact that he had lost in the USCF election.

You're not Chinese and you'll never get married to Marinello, so WHAT IS
YOUR POINT???


I don't know what was Sam Sloan's point. But here's what I believe:

I believe in the humanistic principle of 'gens una sumus'.
I am a human being. The Chinese are human beings, my brothers and sisters
in our family of humanity. I believe that treating every person with
common respect--being opposed to racism--simply means being pro-human.

Perhaps you find that difficult to understand?

Everyone knows what Tim said


Is that why you completely snipped Tim Hanke's "Bugger the Chinese" comment
to Bill Smythe (which was quoted in Sam Sloan's post)?

and nobody really gives a ****


Evidently, you don't find anything "objectionable" about Tim Hanke's comment.
And you seem to believe that no one else should find anything objectionable
about it too. On behalf of whom did you believe that you were writing?
Every USCF member? Every American? Every human being?

"First they came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me."
--Martin Niemoller (1945, on the Nazis in Germany)

except you PC commandos out there who want to make a mountain out of every
molehill on the course.


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."
--United States of America's Declaration of Independence (July 4, 1776)

Unfortunately, too many Americans today seem to regard treating people of
a perceived different (or "inferior") race or culture with common courtesy
as a demeaning exercise in "political correctness".

The Chinese communities in the United States have been extremely politically
marginalized, and they have practically no political influence. (Only one
Chinese American--Rep. David Wu of Oregon--has ever been elected to the
United States Congress.) Accordingly, it's hardly surprising that most
anti-Chinese slurs tend to be condoned in the media and in daily life.

Consider what the response might have been to Tim Hanke's comment, "Bugger X",
if X had not been just "the Chinese", but a much more influential group in the
United States, one with enough power to command basic expressions of respect.

Almost all Americans seem to believe that it's a good thing to say: "We hold
these truths to be self-evident, that all men (and women) are created equal."
Some Americans seem to believe that it's a better thing to practice what that
means instead of just saying it. Other Americans seem to believe that it's
enough just to say it, on certain patriotic occasions, and perhaps that only
"PC commandos" (Matt Nemmers's term) should feel that anything more ought to
be done about it in daily life.

On 18 April 1942, sixteen American B-25 "Mitchell" medium bombers attacked
targets in Japan in what became known as the famous "Doolittle Raid". The
bombers ran out of fuel before they were able to land safely on the Chinese
airfields. Consequently, most of the American airmen were forced down into
Chinese territory under Japanese military occupation. With the invaluable
help of many Chinese, which was given at great risk to their own lives and
those of their families, nearly all of the American airmen were able to elude
the Japanese pursuit and eventually reach safety behind the Chinese lines.

But the Chinese people would suffer from extremely terrible reprisals by the
the Imperial Japanese Army, whose soldiers routinely slaughtered every person
in any village that they even suspected might have assisted the Americans. Some
American historians have estimated that the Japanese massacred 250000 Chinese
civilians as a consequence of the Doolittle Raid. Evidently, many Americans
today can still remember the daring of the American "Doolittle Raiders", but
few of them would know (or perhaps even care) about the far greater sacrifices
of the Chinese people, which were essential in keeping those American airmen
alive and out of Japanese captivity. Yet the surviving "Doolittle Raiders"
can still remember how much they owe to their Chinese friends and benefactors.

"I had no idea how friendly they (the Chinese) were. I couldn't get anyone
to understand what I was saying, not matter, what I did, beyond that we were
from America. It was rough. Then this young man came in--Tung-Sheng Liu--and
he could speak a little English, and he asked if he could be of some help?
I said, 'Yes, you sure can. Help keep us away from the Japanese.' He said,
'I'll do my very best', and with great disregard for his own safety, he stayed
with us and directed us away from places that, if I had been on my own, we
would have walked right in and wound up in the hands of the Japanese. I know
it for a fact. So I believe to this day that he saved my life, my skin, and
that of my crew, and I thank him for it every time I see him. He makes more
modest assertions about it, but I can't say too much about him."
--Trav Hoover (quoted in "The First Heroes" by Craig Nelson, p. 193)

After the war, Tung-Sheng Liu emigrated to the United States and became an
engineer. In recognition of his courage in saving American lives during the
war, the "Doolittle Raiders" voted to make Tung-Sheng Liu an honorary member,
and he has attended nearly all of their reunions.

Whenever Tim Hanke next thinks of saying, "Bugger the Chinese", perhaps he
should first think of Tung-Sheng Liu.

'Were uneasiness of conscience measured by extent of crime, human history
had been different.'
--George Eliot (Daniel Deronda)

--Nick
  #7  
Old August 21st 03, 05:16 AM
The Masked Bishop
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is this not objectionable?

I am surprised
that you find nothing objectionable about Tim Hanke saying that he
wants to go mud-wrestling with Beatriz Marinello, his election opponent


Well, *I* want to go mud-wrestling with Jennifer Shahade, but only after
we've tanked down a a quart of tequila together. She can wear a white
Queen's crown, I'll wear my black Bishop's miter, and she can mate my sorry
ass right there in the muck...

Hope that's not too objectionable, Sammy. Not that your lovely website, with
all them photos of underage Asian prosties you proudly caption as having
donged, is completely Reader's Digest...


  #8  
Old August 21st 03, 06:35 PM
Quad City Chess
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is this not objectionable?

(Nick) wrote in message . com...

Mr. Nemmers,

I have no interest in USCF politics. Yet I would agree with you that Sam
Sloan's post sounded mostly like the whining of a loser who was still finding
it too hard to accept the fact that he had lost in the USCF election.

You're not Chinese and you'll never get married to Marinello, so WHAT IS
YOUR POINT???


I don't know what was Sam Sloan's point. But here's what I believe:

I believe in the humanistic principle of 'gens una sumus'.
I am a human being. The Chinese are human beings, my brothers and sisters
in our family of humanity. I believe that treating every person with
common respect--being opposed to racism--simply means being pro-human.

Perhaps you find that difficult to understand?


Not hard to understand at all, Nick. And I respect your right to
believe and say whatever you wish.

I believe in freedom. I don't advocate racism, sexism, or
(necessarily) any other -ism you can think of; however, I believe in a
person's right to believe any and all of those. Do I think it's
right? No. Do I think that actions taken because of racist or sexist
beliefs are right? No. But people are free to believe and think
whatever they want. That's the beauty of living here in these United
States.


Everyone knows what Tim said


Is that why you completely snipped Tim Hanke's "Bugger the Chinese" comment
to Bill Smythe (which was quoted in Sam Sloan's post)?


No, I just felt that reiterating it in a post it's already been
included in numerous times before was unnecessary.


and nobody really gives a ****


Evidently, you don't find anything "objectionable" about Tim Hanke's comment.
And you seem to believe that no one else should find anything objectionable
about it too. On behalf of whom did you believe that you were writing?
Every USCF member? Every American? Every human being?


No, I don't find it very objectionable. Maybe over in the UK the term
"bugger" is derogatory, but here in the good ol' U.S. of A it just
sounds stupid.

Also, I don't think that summing up a government's stance on a
particular issue by saying something like "Bugger the Chinese" relates
any kind of attitude towards the people of that country as
individuals. I don't feel the need to psychoanalyze every phrase
people utter on Usenet and judge whether or not their language is
racist or objectionable. A

Additonally, I was speaking on behalf of myself and what I believed
the majority of this forum was thinking when I told Sloan that "nobody
really gives a ****." Sloan has the right to complain, I have the
right to tell him to shut up, and you have the right to think that I
am wrong.

except you PC commandos out there who want to make a mountain out of every
molehill on the course.


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."
--United States of America's Declaration of Independence (July 4, 1776)

Unfortunately, too many Americans today seem to regard treating people of
a perceived different (or "inferior") race or culture with common courtesy
as a demeaning exercise in "political correctness".

The Chinese communities in the United States have been extremely politically
marginalized, and they have practically no political influence. (Only one
Chinese American--Rep. David Wu of Oregon--has ever been elected to the
United States Congress.) Accordingly, it's hardly surprising that most
anti-Chinese slurs tend to be condoned in the media and in daily life.

Consider what the response might have been to Tim Hanke's comment, "Bugger X",
if X had not been just "the Chinese", but a much more influential group in the
United States, one with enough power to command basic expressions of respect.

Almost all Americans seem to believe that it's a good thing to say: "We hold
these truths to be self-evident, that all men (and women) are created equal."
Some Americans seem to believe that it's a better thing to practice what that
means instead of just saying it. Other Americans seem to believe that it's
enough just to say it, on certain patriotic occasions, and perhaps that only
"PC commandos" (Matt Nemmers's term) should feel that anything more ought to
be done about it in daily life.


SNIPPED historical analogy

Nick, I just don't think that every little so-called "slur" uttered by
a single individual needs (or deserves) a spokesman to come out and
defend the race, creed, religion, or the myriad other groups out there
who might be offended by it. It is these people I refer to as "PC
commandos" -- the ones that think those they perceive are picked on
are too small and weak to stand up for themselves so they need to do
it for them. People that take things and themselves way too
seriously. Don't have time for that. If I tried to change the mind
of every person who disagreed with me in this free country I wouldn't
have any time for myself, and I resent those who think their belief
system or way of thinking is "better" than mine and try to force it
down my throat. I don't do that to anyone and I don't tolerate it
from others. I just speak my peace and those that want to agree or
disagree may do so of their own free will. But either way, I'm not
losing any sleep over it.


Whenever Tim Hanke next thinks of saying, "Bugger the Chinese", perhaps he
should first think of Tung-Sheng Liu.


Perhaps you should think about that statement and if it was really
worth the thought and effort you put into telling us how wrong you
think it is. Maybe Tim meant it sarcastically or as a joke. (Or do
we not joke about that...?) Maybe he really doesn't like the Chinese?
Maybe he has an adopted Chinese cousin and just doesn't like China's
government's stance on a particular issue? Maybe he was just in a
testy mood that day?

I know, I know....what do you care about any of that? You don't.
Just as you shouldn't care what Hanke says about the Chinese or any
other -ese for that matter. It doesn't affect his ability to serve as
VP of Finance or on the USCF's Executive Board, which is what brought
this all up, so why does his statement get you all fired up? I don't
know and I don't care, but I just thought I'd give you my take on the
whole issue.

Agree, disagree, or flame-spray as you like. Just know that I believe
you have every right to think and say whatever you want about me and
my opinions -- but won't lose any sleep over it one way or the other.

Take care.

Regards,

Matt



--Nick

  #9  
Old August 22nd 03, 02:58 AM
Nick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is this not objectionable?

"The Masked Bishop" wrote in message gy.com...
Sam Sloan wrote:
I am surprised that you find nothing objectionable about Tim Hanke saying
that he wants to go mud-wrestling with Beatriz Marinello, his election
opponent

(snipped)
Hope that's not too objectionable, Sammy. Not that your lovely website, with
all them photos of underage Asian prosties you proudly caption as having
donged, is completely Reader's Digest...


I hope that everyone understands that I was *not* supporting Sam Sloan and
I am *not* defending the contents of his website.

--Nick
 




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