A Chess forum. ChessBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » ChessBanter forum » Chess Newsgroups » rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General)
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Errors in Winter's New Book



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old July 23rd 03, 04:29 PM
Ian Burton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Errors in Winter's New Book

Edward Winter's latest book, A Chess Omnibus, is entertaining, but is not
the error-free tome one might expect from so demanding a personality. I
have yet to finish the book, but positions are transposed as early as page
7, and a position is missing a piece on page 145. Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.

Perhaps Winter should have his own house in order before attacking
Kasparov's.
--
Ian Burton
[Please Reply to Newsgroup]



  #2  
Old July 23rd 03, 05:29 PM
Joshua B. Lilly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Errors in Winter's New Book

The danger of being an Accuracy Fanatic is that people will put your own
works under more intense scrutiny!
Still, I think Winter is the best for chess history alive right now, though
he seems quite unfriendly and insulting in how he critiques the work of
others.

- Joshua B. Lilly




"Ian Burton" wrote in message
...
Edward Winter's latest book, A Chess Omnibus, is entertaining, but is not
the error-free tome one might expect from so demanding a personality. I
have yet to finish the book, but positions are transposed as early as page
7, and a position is missing a piece on page 145. Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.

Perhaps Winter should have his own house in order before attacking
Kasparov's.
--
Ian Burton
[Please Reply to Newsgroup]



  #3  
Old July 23rd 03, 07:45 PM
johnnyvegas
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Errors in Winter's New Book

"Ian Burton" wrote in message ...
Edward Winter's latest book, A Chess Omnibus, is entertaining, but is not
the error-free tome one might expect from so demanding a personality. I
have yet to finish the book, but positions are transposed as early as page
7, and a position is missing a piece on page 145. Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.

Perhaps Winter should have his own house in order before attacking
Kasparov's.


Perhaps you should be a tad more attentive.

Winter acknowledged the diagram switch on page 7 over a month ago in
his Chess Notes column at chesscafe.com.

Perhaps you should help us out with your next claim. There is nothing
wrong with page 145. The first diagram is taken from the 1912 BCM as
noted in the book, and the second diagram is accurate.
  #4  
Old July 24th 03, 04:48 AM
Parrthenon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Errors in Winter's New Book

EMPLOYING THE MAN'S OWN STANDARDS

By Larry Parr

The attempt to exculpate Edward Winter below is reasonable enough. A
man makes an error, he acknowledges it and eventually corrects it. Fine.

But the exculpation does not work if one employs Mr. Winter's standard
of criticism. Concerning GM Larry Evans, he repeatedly adduced errors that had
been acknowledged by the grandmaster or corrected in later editions of his
works.

By Mr. Winter's standard, which he has applied to his more widely read
enemies, his acknowledgment of error is insufficient. By his standard, as he
has practiced it, one may bring up the same errors of an enemy over and over
again without mentioning that they have been corrected.

Someone has said that Mr. Winter is the best around at chess history
just now. Nonsense. John Hilbert's volumes, though at times ponderous, are
real attempts at biography and history. They may be placed againt Mr. Winter's
works, which are compendia of archival material. The distinction is between an
historian or someone practicing history and someone who is, in truth, an
antiquarian. The difference is dealt with at length in Herbert Butterfield's
masterful Man on His Past.

There is also something called historical method -- a way of evaluating
evidence. For Mr. Winter the historical method is terra incognita. Readers
may consult my work on Mr. Winter at www.chesscity.com and look to the section
dealing with Mr. Winter's treatment of Richard Teichmann's career.

In the chesscity essays I also took a look at the incidence of error
in Mr. Winter's attack on GM Evans, "The Facts About Larry Evans." I
discovered a far higher rate of error, as I combed the article relentlessly,
than the amount of error that Mr. Winter attributed to GM Evans. To be sure,
the errors were generally trivial, though sloppy -- just the kind of
albatrosses that Mr. Winter tried to hang around GM Evans' reputation.

These essays, currently in e-book form at chesscity, are being
enlarged to appear in book form. There will be photographs of many of the
principals, including a brief look at Mr. Winter's school years and career.

Perhaps Winter should have his own house in order before attacking

Kasparov's. -- Ian Burton

"Perhaps you should be a tad more attentive.

Winter acknowledged the diagram switch on page 7 over a month ago in
his Chess Notes column at chesscafe.com.

Perhaps you should help us out with your next claim. There is nothing
wrong with page 145. The first diagram is taken from the 1912 BCM as noted in
the book, and the second diagram is accurate." -- johnnyvegas







  #5  
Old July 24th 03, 05:20 AM
Matt Nemmers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Errors in Winter's New Book

"Parrthenon" wrote in message
...
EMPLOYING THE MAN'S OWN STANDARDS

By Larry Parr


SNIP

Oh, dear Jesus.....not again.

Regards,

Matt


  #6  
Old July 24th 03, 08:42 AM
NoMoreChess
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Errors in Winter's New Book

..
The attempt to exculpate Edward Winter below is reasonable enough. A
man makes an error, he acknowledges it and eventually corrects it.



If true, this places Mr. Winter one step ahead of certain others hereabout --
others who flatly refuse to admit when they have erred. Others who have
recklessly plunged ahead, despite repeatedly being told they were going in the
wrong direction. Of course, I won't name names. You know who you are.



Concerning GM Larry Evans, he [Winter] repeatedly adduced errors that had
been acknowledged by the grandmaster or corrected in later editions of his
works.



Better was...forgiving those errors corrected in later editions of a book;
but it is still fair to note the frequency of such errors, when attempting to
assess the general quality of a writer's work.

As for the stuff in C.L., the harm is already done. A corrected spelling of
some name, or a correction to some date which was originally given wrong, is
rarely going to undo any small harm done. I have virtually never gone back
and checked an article in a past issue, to make right some such typo. But
then, I would not quote and requote such details from any such article, as
"proof" of anything, for I am aware of the offhand and careless way in which
they are sometimes written. I get the distinct impression that many GM's feel
they are underpaid for these articles (and maybe they are -- I wouldn't know),
and so put forth precious little work.



[longwinded ad hominem against Edward Winter snipped]




These essays, currently in e-book form at chesscity, are being
enlarged to appear in book form.



Ah, then the "assassination" of one critic of Mr. Evans will be complete!
Will this, I wonder, "erase" Mr. Evans' many trivial spelling errors? Poor
Mr. Parr will have his work cut out for him, if he expects to "eliminate" every
critic of Mr. Evans in this same, lame-brained manner.




There will be photographs of many of the
principals,



Mr. Evans was quite handsome as a young man. But then, that was fifty years
ago.



Perhaps Winter should have his own house in order before attacking

Kasparov's.



Two alleged diagram errors are being comapred to charges of outright
plagiarism, faulty "GM" analysis easily "cooked" by Fritz, and a multitude of
factual errors in the bios?
Grasping at straws, you are.



A few relevant links:

chesscity.com rhetoric.com

chesscafe.com nitpickers-paradise.com

feuds-neverending.com

tucows.com (for an e-book reader!)






  #7  
Old July 24th 03, 03:12 PM
Joshua B. Lilly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Errors in Winter's New Book

Who didn`t see this coming?



"Parrthenon" wrote in message
...
EMPLOYING THE MAN'S OWN STANDARDS

By Larry Parr

The attempt to exculpate Edward Winter below is reasonable enough.

A
man makes an error, he acknowledges it and eventually corrects it. Fine.

But the exculpation does not work if one employs Mr. Winter's

standard
of criticism. Concerning GM Larry Evans, he repeatedly adduced errors

that had
been acknowledged by the grandmaster or corrected in later editions of his
works.

By Mr. Winter's standard, which he has applied to his more widely

read
enemies, his acknowledgment of error is insufficient. By his standard, as

he
has practiced it, one may bring up the same errors of an enemy over and

over
again without mentioning that they have been corrected.

Someone has said that Mr. Winter is the best around at chess

history
just now. Nonsense. John Hilbert's volumes, though at times ponderous,

are
real attempts at biography and history. They may be placed againt Mr.

Winter's
works, which are compendia of archival material. The distinction is

between an
historian or someone practicing history and someone who is, in truth, an
antiquarian. The difference is dealt with at length in Herbert

Butterfield's
masterful Man on His Past.

There is also something called historical method -- a way of

evaluating
evidence. For Mr. Winter the historical method is terra incognita.

Readers
may consult my work on Mr. Winter at www.chesscity.com and look to the

section
dealing with Mr. Winter's treatment of Richard Teichmann's career.

In the chesscity essays I also took a look at the incidence of

error
in Mr. Winter's attack on GM Evans, "The Facts About Larry Evans." I
discovered a far higher rate of error, as I combed the article

relentlessly,
than the amount of error that Mr. Winter attributed to GM Evans. To be

sure,
the errors were generally trivial, though sloppy -- just the kind of
albatrosses that Mr. Winter tried to hang around GM Evans' reputation.

These essays, currently in e-book form at chesscity, are being
enlarged to appear in book form. There will be photographs of many of the
principals, including a brief look at Mr. Winter's school years and

career.

Perhaps Winter should have his own house in order before attacking

Kasparov's. -- Ian Burton

"Perhaps you should be a tad more attentive.

Winter acknowledged the diagram switch on page 7 over a month ago in
his Chess Notes column at chesscafe.com.

Perhaps you should help us out with your next claim. There is nothing
wrong with page 145. The first diagram is taken from the 1912 BCM as noted

in
the book, and the second diagram is accurate." -- johnnyvegas









  #8  
Old July 24th 03, 06:48 PM
Anders Thulin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Errors in Winter's New Book



Ian Burton wrote:

The first diagram on page 145 *is* incorrect. There is no mate on g7 or g8.


Mate? Do I miss something? Why should there be one?

The text asks why Wahltuch in the position

6bk/1p6/1r5p/3p4/3P4/3P2Q1/4r3/K7 w - - 0 60

against Griffith (Richmond, 1912) chose Qg7+ over Qxg8+ -- both moves draw,
and seem to be the only moves that does so.

In the diagram, White is probably missing a rook. If the diagram was taken
from a 1912 BCM, it was taken mistakenly or it was taken with little care.


Assuming there *is* a Rook missing, right?

Would Waltuch have drawn with an extra rook? According to the crosstable
in Gaige, he drew his game against Griffith, so there's nothing inconsistent
that far.

--
Anders Thulin http://www.algonet.se/~ath

  #9  
Old July 25th 03, 12:13 AM
Larry Tapper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Errors in Winter's New Book

Larry Parr writes:

Someone has said that Mr. Winter is the best around at chess history
just now. Nonsense. John Hilbert's volumes, though at times ponderous, are
real attempts at biography and history. They may be placed againt Mr.
Winter's works, which are compendia of archival material. The distinction is between an historian or someone practicing history and someone who is, in
truth, an antiquarian. The difference is dealt with at length in Herbert
Butterfield's masterful Man on His Past.


I think that the distinction Parr is making here is a reasonable one;
and possibly Winter himself would admit that there is some justice in
it. Winter is a miniaturist who rarely tries to undertake sustained
historical examination of some theme or personality, in the way
Hilbert does.

However, antiquarians and historians can both say that they've earned
the right to contrast themselves with a third group of chess writers,
those who are merely hacks. These of course are the main targets of
Winter's ire. The question then is how much sloppy writing,
inattention to detail, uncritical repetition of old material, and
carelessness with sources is enough to make one a hack. While many
readers think that Winter's hack detector is too finely calibrated at
times, there's no doubt in my mind that he scores quite a few telling
points.

LT
  #10  
Old July 25th 03, 04:14 AM
Parrthenon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Errors in Winter's New Book


THE UNDERLYING ISSUE

By Larry Parr


Larry Tapper concedes the obvious, indeed well-known, distinction between
historians and antiquarians.

Mr. Tapper then writes, "However, antiquarians and historians can both say that
they've earned the right to contrast themselves with a third group of chess
writers, those who are merely hacks. These of course are the main targets of
Winter's ire."

In terms of having devoted an entire, high-profile article to GM Larry Evans,
one may argue that Mr. Winter's "main" target is the 5-time U.S. champion.

Readers are once again directed to my e-book on the subject of Mr. Winter's
attack at http://www.chesscity.com where he identified some 25 errors made by
GM Evans, digging back as far as 50 years for his material, covering some 10
million words of prose authored by the grandmaster.

I did my own error search in Mr. Winter's essay and found a higher incidence of
niggling mistakes than those he attributed to GM Evans. I provide the precise
numbers in my e-book. Even as a cranky antiquarian of cold contumely, churning
out mannered, third-rate Victorian prose, Mr. Winter failed in that essay IF we
judge him by his own standards.

There was something more, though, in the Winter attack on GM Evans. There was
also outright dishonesty in which he misrepresented sources to claim an error.
This ploy is also documented at length at my essay at http://www.chesscity.com
-- a ploy amounting to Mr. Winter manufacturing an error that he could then pin
on GM Evans. Filthy stuff -- made all the more unclean by the man writing in
frost rather than heat.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
christmas-tournament 2003: a 15 rounds tournament on 1200 mhz and 40/120 time control Thorsten Czub rec.games.chess.computer (Computer Chess) 0 January 18th 04 10:02 PM
Kasparov's book, computers etc henri Arsenault rec.games.chess.analysis (Chess Analysis) 15 September 25th 03 04:25 PM
Good books? 47 Ronin rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) 9 July 22nd 03 09:18 PM
Kasparov Interview about Book ! Mig rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) 2 July 22nd 03 09:16 AM
The Everything Chess Basics Book Miriling rec.games.chess.politics (Chess Politics) 0 July 20th 03 01:17 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 2.4.0
Copyright 2004-2017 ChessBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.