-remove- (Mhoulsby) wrote in message ...
From: "Jerzy"
Date: 28/08/03 07:33 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:
"Nick" wrote in message
. com...
After 1945, many Polish veterans of the Second World War decided to remain
in the United Kingdom instead of returning to live in their homeland.

"For your freedom and ours:
We commit our bodies
To the soil of Italy,
Our souls to God,
And our hearts to Poland."
--(from a memorial to the fallen Polish soldiers)

Right Nick, I`ve just heard on the radio that today we are commemorating
Polish pilots that fought in the Battle of England in 1940 on your side.

Dear Jerzy,

To be more accurate, it's called the 'Battle of Britain'.

There were several squadrons of them. Over two thousand sacrificed their
lives in the air fight.

To be more accurate, more than 2000 Polish airmen may have been killed during
the entire war, but far fewer than 2000 were killed during the Battle of
Britain in 1940.

The most famous was of course squadron 303.

303 'Kosciuszko' Squadron--named in honour of Tadeusz Kosciuszko (1746-1817),
a national hero in Poland and the United States--was formed on 2 August 1940
in Northolt, England. 303 Squadron fought in the Battle of Britain from
31 August 1940 until 11 October 1940, shooting down 125 aeroplanes (as
officially confirmed kills), which made it the highest scoring RAF squadron
in the Battle of Britain. Out of the 38 pilots who then flew in the squadron,
34 were Polish, three were British officers, and the highest scoring fighter
pilot was a Czech, Josef Frantisek, who shot down 17 aeroplanes (more than
anyone else during the Battle of Britain) before his death on 8 October 1940.

Do you remember them today in England?

We most certainly do. The first time I visited the Polish club in my home
city of Newcastle-upon-Tyne was to play a chess match, some thirty years ago.
The Polish Squadron of the RAF was described in Guy Hamilton's 1969 movie
"The Battle Of Britain".

Dear Mr Houlsby,

For further viewing:
'Piece of Cake' (1988 British television miniseries based on the novel
by Derek Robinson on a RAF Hurricane squadron 1939-40)

There is no doubt that without its Polish pilots (and Canadians and
Hungarians

I presume that you meant 'Czechoslovakians' instead of 'Hungarians'.
Hungary later joined the Axis. For instance, in real life, Count Laszlo
Almasy (the hero of the novel and the film, 'The English Patient') was a
Hungarian, who planned secret missions for the Germans during the campaign
in North Africa.

and Indians

Actually, there were no Indian pilots in the RAF during the Battle of Britain.
Before the war, the British Raj distrusted all Indians to the extent that it
refused to permit any of them to have such advanced military training as a
fighter pilot course.

The contributions of the many Australians, New Zealanders, and South Africans
in the Royal Air Force should be mentioned. Also, some Americans enlisted in
Canada in order to fight for the Allies before the United States would enter
the war. Eventually, the RAF had at least one squadron of airmen from nearly
every Axis-occupied country in Europe.

although Poles comprised the greatest number of foreign nationals)

Only if 'foreign nationals' are regarded as persons outside the Commonwealth.

the RAF would, at the very least, have struggled to win the Battle of Britain
and would most probably have lost.

During the shooting of the 1969 film, "The Battle of Britain", Adolf Galland,
an expert consultant who had been a top German fighter ace during the battle,
became engaged in a passionate argument when he contended that the Luftwaffe
did *not* lose the Battle of Britain. Evidently, he believed that the
Luftwaffe should have won the battle eventually if it had continued fighting
it with improved tactics.

In general, the non-British pilots in the Royal Air Force were more skilled
than the British pilots at that time, and a disproportionately high number
of its leading fighter aces were not British.

"I am for war, if only to give you a chance to find out who your friends are."
--Gertrude Atherton (Senator North)

--Nick

"Roman M. Parparov" wrote in message
...

I meant that under Russian patronage the Orthodox population of Ukraine
would have an easier time than under Polish.

That`s right but the Pope has visited Ukraine and not Russia so far. So a
kind of mistrust is seen between Vatican and Russia not Vatican and Ukraine.
I can often hear even accusations on both sides and strange actions like
expelling catholic priests from Russia.



That`s right, Crimea is another unsolved question between Russia and
Ukraine
:-)
Russians treat it like a separate region from Ukraine but nowadays it`s
Ukrainian anyway.

The point is that Crimea was for a long time part of Russian Federation
within USSR. The population of Crimea is largely mixed - Russians,
Ukrainian, Tartar without any major group.

The problem is that many Russians still don`t recognize Crimea as part of
Ukraine :-)


The main problem in relationship between Russians and Ukrainians are
sentiments but in politics there are no sentiments only pragmatism.

And that the Russians try still to treat Ukrainians as "lesser
brother"...

.... and Ukraine is called sometimes by Russians "little Russia" what is a
little bit deceptive.

Regards,
Jerzy

"Nick" wrote in message
om...

To be more accurate, it's called the 'Battle of Britain'.

Yes, the sun never sets on the British Empire ;-)


There were several squadrons of them. Over two thousand sacrificed
their
lives in the air fight.

To be more accurate, more than 2000 Polish airmen may have been killed
during
the entire war, but far fewer than 2000 were killed during the Battle of
Britain in 1940.

Thanks for correcting me. That`s exactly what I`ve heard on the radio but
distorted a little ;-)


The most famous was of course squadron 303.

303 'Kosciuszko' Squadron--named in honour of Tadeusz Kosciuszko
(1746-1817),
a national hero in Poland and the United States--was formed on 2 August
1940
in Northolt, England. 303 Squadron fought in the Battle of Britain from
31 August 1940 until 11 October 1940, shooting down 125 aeroplanes (as
officially confirmed kills), which made it the highest scoring RAF
squadron
in the Battle of Britain. Out of the 38 pilots who then flew in the
squadron,
34 were Polish, three were British officers, and the highest scoring
fighter
pilot was a Czech, Josef Frantisek, who shot down 17 aeroplanes (more than
anyone else during the Battle of Britain) before his death on 8 October
1940.

Nice statistics, Nick.
I must look it up in the book about the 303 squad written by Polish writer
Arkady Fiedler ;-)

In general, the non-British pilots in the Royal Air Force were more
skilled
than the British pilots at that time, and a disproportionately high number
of its leading fighter aces were not British.


I`ve heard about several aces in RAF of English origins but I`m not sure.
Anyway I`m not a historian ;-)

Regards,
Jerzy

(Nick) wrote in message . com...
-remove- (Mhoulsby) wrote in message ...
From: "Jerzy"
Date: 28/08/03 07:33 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:
Right Nick, I`ve just heard on the radio that today we are commemorating
Polish pilots that fought in the Battle of England in 1940 on your side.
There were several squadrons of them. Over two thousand sacrificed their
lives in the air fight.

To be more accurate, more than 2000 Polish airmen may have been killed during
the entire war, but far fewer than 2000 were killed during the Battle of
Britain in 1940.

29 Polish airmen of Fighter Command were killed during the Battle
of Britain.

Mark Houlsby wrote:
although Poles comprised the greatest number of foreign nationals)

Only if 'foreign nationals' are regarded as persons outside the Commonwealth.

Actually, during the Battle of Britain, there were slightly more
Polish fighter pilots in the Royal Air Force than the pilots from
any single nation of the Commonwealth, though not from the combined
nations of the Commonwealth.

Fighter Command's Aircrew in the Battle of Britain (abridged list)
('The Battle of Britain' by Richard Hough and Denis Richards, 191):

Nation: Flew Killed
Poland 141 29
New Zealand 129 14
Canada 90 20
Czechoslovakia 87 7
Belgium 24 6
South Africa 22 9
Australia 21 14
France 13 0
Ireland 9 0
United States 7 1

Mark Houlsby wrote:
the RAF would, at the very least, have struggled to win the Battle of
Britain and would most probably have lost.
...
In general, the non-British pilots in the Royal Air Force were more skilled
than the British pilots at that time, and a disproportionately high number
of its leading fighter aces were not British.

During the Battle of Britain, the Operational Training Units needed
to pass out the new British pilots as quickly as possible, which
inevitably impaired their skills in combat:

"The supply of replacement pilots was more important still and was
rapidly becoming the most critical aspect of Fighter Command's
continuing defence. Between 8 and 18 August no fewer than 154 pilots
had been lost, killed, missing or so gravely wounded as to be out of
the Battle. During that same period the OTUs produced few more than
a third of this number. They had, it transpired later, made no effort
to accelerate the final training course, to pack in more flying hours
per day, or to increase the facilities for firing practice. It was
just as if peace still prevailed, except that the extent of the
course was *severely shortened*....

The crisis was compounded by the quality and experience of those
lost, including a large number of squadron and flight commanders,
and the dangerous inexperience of those replacing them. Taking a
random sample in 1988 of the many survivors who reported to their
OTU training after the Battle began, the average was eleven days,
which could mean six to nine hours (several of them less) in the
air. 'I fired my guns once into cloud', was a typical comment;
and few of them had any air-to-air gunnery practice, or experience
with the reflector gunsight.

'I tried to take up my new pilots once or twice before taking
them on ops', one squadron commander, James Leathart, claimed.
'It was like sentencing them to death if I didn't, and not far
short of it even if I did. They hadn't a clue about high-speed
combat or deflection shooting or holding fire until 200 yards...'"

--Richard Hough and Denis Richards (The Battle of Britain, 200-1)

'Death, where is thy sting?'

--Nick

From: (Nick)
Date: 29/08/03 02:58 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

(Nick) wrote in message
.com...
-remove- (Mhoulsby) wrote in message
...
From: "Jerzy"
Date: 28/08/03 07:33 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:
Right Nick, I`ve just heard on the radio that today we are commemorating
Polish pilots that fought in the Battle of England in 1940 on your side.
There were several squadrons of them. Over two thousand sacrificed
their
lives in the air fight.

To be more accurate, more than 2000 Polish airmen may have been killed
during
the entire war, but far fewer than 2000 were killed during the Battle of
Britain in 1940.

29 Polish airmen of Fighter Command were killed during the Battle
of Britain.

Mark Houlsby wrote:
although Poles comprised the greatest number of foreign nationals)

Only if 'foreign nationals' are regarded as persons outside the
Commonwealth.

Actually, during the Battle of Britain, there were slightly more
Polish fighter pilots in the Royal Air Force than the pilots from
any single nation of the Commonwealth, though not from the combined
nations of the Commonwealth.

Fighter Command's Aircrew in the Battle of Britain (abridged list)
('The Battle of Britain' by Richard Hough and Denis Richards, 191):

Nation: Flew Killed
Poland 141 29
New Zealand 129 14
Canada 90 20
Czechoslovakia 87 7
Belgium 24 6
South Africa 22 9
Australia 21 14
France 13 0
Ireland 9 0
United States 7 1

Mark Houlsby wrote:
the RAF would, at the very least, have struggled to win the Battle of
Britain and would most probably have lost.
...
In general, the non-British pilots in the Royal Air Force were more skilled
than the British pilots at that time, and a disproportionately high number
of its leading fighter aces were not British.

During the Battle of Britain, the Operational Training Units needed
to pass out the new British pilots as quickly as possible, which
inevitably impaired their skills in combat:

"The supply of replacement pilots was more important still and was
rapidly becoming the most critical aspect of Fighter Command's
continuing defence. Between 8 and 18 August no fewer than 154 pilots
had been lost, killed, missing or so gravely wounded as to be out of
the Battle. During that same period the OTUs produced few more than
a third of this number. They had, it transpired later, made no effort
to accelerate the final training course, to pack in more flying hours
per day, or to increase the facilities for firing practice. It was
just as if peace still prevailed, except that the extent of the
course was *severely shortened*....

The crisis was compounded by the quality and experience of those
lost, including a large number of squadron and flight commanders,
and the dangerous inexperience of those replacing them. Taking a
random sample in 1988 of the many survivors who reported to their
OTU training after the Battle began, the average was eleven days,
which could mean six to nine hours (several of them less) in the
air. 'I fired my guns once into cloud', was a typical comment;
and few of them had any air-to-air gunnery practice, or experience
with the reflector gunsight.

'I tried to take up my new pilots once or twice before taking
them on ops', one squadron commander, James Leathart, claimed.
'It was like sentencing them to death if I didn't, and not far
short of it even if I did. They hadn't a clue about high-speed
combat or deflection shooting or holding fire until 200 yards...'"

--Richard Hough and Denis Richards (The Battle of Britain, 200-1)

'Death, where is thy sting?'

--Nick

Interesting, Nick. I am well aware that many Hungarians fought in the
wehrmacht.

Of course, Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding's principal concern during the
Battle of Britain was a shortage of trained pilots, if the RAF had been able to
muster fewer than a critical number, the Luftwaffe would have won. With this in
mind, I was conviced (evidently wrongly) that some Hungarian *refugees* had
served in the RAF during the battle, an idea which your statistics effectively
refute.

Mark

-remove- (Mhoulsby) wrote in message ...
(snipped)
There is no doubt that without its Polish pilots (and Canadians and Hungarians
and Indians... although Poles comprised the greatest number of foreign
nationals) the RAF would, at the very least, have struggled to win the Battle
Of Britain and would most probably have lost.

Some historical inaccuracies in that statement have been corrected earlier
in this thread.

According to the RAF Battle of Britain Museum (Hendon, England), during the
Battle of Britain (1940), Fighter Command had a total of 2863 airmen (503 of
them were killed in the Battle) flying on its operations. Of these airmen,
2316 (403 were killed) were from the United Kingdom, and 547 (100 were killed)
were not from the United Kingdom.

So slightly under 20% of the participating airmen (and the fatalities) were
not British. On average, the non-British airmen were more skilled than the
British airmen, many of whom had been hastily trained before being flung into
the Battle. Hence, the non-British airmen probably accounted for at least 25%
and perhaps more than 30% of Fighter Command's effective strength. Without
their vital contributions, the margin between victory and defeat would have
been erased, and the Luftwaffe should have been able to win the battle of
attrition in the skies over Britain in 1940.

http://www.guardiancentury.co.uk/194...128255,00.html

'Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.'
--Winston Churchill (21 August 1940)

--Nick

(Nick) wrote in message . com...
From: "Jerzy"
Date: 28/08/03 07:33 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:
Right Nick, I`ve just heard on the radio that today we are commemorating
Polish pilots that fought in the Battle of England in 1940 on your side.
There were several squadrons of them. Over two thousand sacrificed their
lives in the air fight. The most famous was of course squadron 303.

303 'Kosciuszko' Squadron--named in honour of Tadeusz Kosciuszko (1746-1817),
a national hero in Poland and the United States--was formed on 2 August 1940
in Northolt, England. 303 Squadron fought in the Battle of Britain from
31 August 1940 until 11 October 1940, shooting down 125 aeroplanes (as
officially confirmed kills), which made it the highest scoring RAF squadron
in the Battle of Britain. Out of the 38 pilots who then flew in the squadron,
34 were Polish, three were British officers, and the highest scoring fighter
pilot was a Czech, Josef Frantisek, who shot down 17 aeroplanes (more than
anyone else during the Battle of Britain) before his death on 8 October 1940.

Actually, the Royal Air Force officially recognised its highest scoring fighter
pilot in the Battle of Britain as James ('Ginger') Lacey (1917-1989), a NCO
who was flying the Hawker Hurricane (then the most common RAF fighter type),
with 18 confirmed victories. At the war's end, Lacey was credited with a total
of 28 confirmed victories in air combat.

During the shooting of the 1969 film, "The Battle of Britain", Adolf Galland,
an expert consultant who had been a top German fighter ace during the battle,
became engaged in a passionate argument when he contended that the Luftwaffe
did *not* lose the Battle of Britain. Evidently, he believed that the
Luftwaffe should have won the battle eventually if it had continued fighting
it with improved tactics.

Adolf Galland (1912-1996) became the Luftwaffe's General der Jagdflieger.
At the war's end, Galland (who had been demoted to take command of JV 44,
an elite unit of pilots flying the Me-262 jet fighter) was credited with a
total of 104 confirmed victories in air combat.

For further reading:

"The Battle of Britain: the Making of a Film" by Leonard Mosley
"Die Ersten und die Letzten" ("The First and the Last") by Adolf Galland
"Adolf Galland: the Authorised Biography" by David Baker

(William Falkner (1826-1889) and William Faulkner (1897-1962) are different.)

"War on paper and war on the field are as different as darkness from light,
fire from water, or heaven from earth."
--William Falkner (The Little Brick Church)

--Nick

"Nick" wrote in message
om...

Actually, the Royal Air Force officially recognised its highest scoring
fighter
pilot in the Battle of Britain as James ('Ginger') Lacey (1917-1989), a
NCO
who was flying the Hawker Hurricane (then the most common RAF fighter
type),
with 18 confirmed victories. At the war's end, Lacey was credited with a
total
of 28 confirmed victories in air combat.

That`s what I heard but wasn`t quite sure.


During the shooting of the 1969 film, "The Battle of Britain", Adolf
Galland,
an expert consultant who had been a top German fighter ace during the
battle,
became engaged in a passionate argument when he contended that the
Luftwaffe
did *not* lose the Battle of Britain. Evidently, he believed that the
Luftwaffe should have won the battle eventually if it had continued
fighting
it with improved tactics.

Adolf Galland (1912-1996) became the Luftwaffe's General der Jagdflieger.
At the war's end, Galland (who had been demoted to take command of JV 44,
an elite unit of pilots flying the Me-262 jet fighter) was credited with a
total of 104 confirmed victories in air combat.

For further reading:

"The Battle of Britain: the Making of a Film" by Leonard Mosley
"Die Ersten und die Letzten" ("The First and the Last") by Adolf Galland
"Adolf Galland: the Authorised Biography" by David Baker

Interesting but I`m afraid we have gone a little Off Topic ;-)

Regards,
Jerzy

-remove- (Mhoulsby) wrote in message ...
From: "Jerzy"
Message-id:
Right Nick, I`ve just heard on the radio that today we are commemorating
Polish pilots that fought in the Battle of England in 1940 on your side.
There were several squadrons of them. Over two thousand sacrificed their
lives in the air fight. The most famous was of course squadron 303.
Do you remember them today in England?

We most certainly do. The first time I visited the Polish club in my home
city of Newcastle-upon-Tyne was to play a chess match, some thirty years ago.

Dear Mr Houlsby,

On 15 August 1940, the Luftwaffe launched a surprise raid against targets near
Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

"To support the fierce, predictable raids in the south with surprise raids on
airfields and industrial targets in the north-east appears to have been a
sudden inspiration emanating from Goering's Chief of Intelligence, Oberst
Josef 'Beppo' Schmidt. He was confident that all Fighter Command's resources
had been concentrated in the southern Groups and that the north-east was wide
open to attack....

For the Luftwaffe, this northern operation was stricken with grievous
misfortunes. The plan was, in addition to the Danish force ('some sixty
Ju-88 bombers'), for some seventy Norway-based He 111 bombers, escorted by a
Gruppe of twenty-one Me 110s...to attack airfields in the Tyne-Tees area....
As a feint, a force of Heinkel seaplanes was to precede the operation by flying
towards the Scottish coast north of Edinburgh to draw any unlikely fighters
north and away from the main attacks.

'But the German bombers made a serious navigational error: they made landfall
seventy-five miles too far north, thus almost coinciding with the point of the
mock attack. 'Thanks to this error'...'the mock attack achieved the opposite
of what we intended. The British fighter defence force was not only alerted in
good time, but made contact with the genuine attacking force.'...

Dowding in his 'Despatch' made this comment on Stumpff's surprise assault on
the north-east: '...the bombers received such a drubbing that the experiment
was not repeated'."

--Richard Hough and Denis Richards (The Battle of Britain, pp. 173-4)

Inaccuracy in locating the target has not been confined to Usenet "flame wars".

'England, that dear land of mists.'
--Charlotte Bronte (Villette)

--Nick

From: (Nick)
Date: 28/09/03 00:47 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

-remove- (Mhoulsby) wrote in message
...
From: "Jerzy"
Message-id:
Right Nick, I`ve just heard on the radio that today we are commemorating
Polish pilots that fought in the Battle of England in 1940 on your side.
There were several squadrons of them. Over two thousand sacrificed their
lives in the air fight. The most famous was of course squadron 303.
Do you remember them today in England?

We most certainly do. The first time I visited the Polish club in my home
city of Newcastle-upon-Tyne was to play a chess match, some thirty years
ago.

Dear Mr Houlsby,

On 15 August 1940, the Luftwaffe launched a surprise raid against targets
near
Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

"To support the fierce, predictable raids in the south with surprise raids on
airfields and industrial targets in the north-east appears to have been a
sudden inspiration emanating from Goering's Chief of Intelligence, Oberst
Josef 'Beppo' Schmidt. He was confident that all Fighter Command's resources
had been concentrated in the southern Groups and that the north-east was wide
open to attack....

For the Luftwaffe, this northern operation was stricken with grievous
misfortunes. The plan was, in addition to the Danish force ('some sixty
Ju-88 bombers'), for some seventy Norway-based He 111 bombers, escorted by a
Gruppe of twenty-one Me 110s...to attack airfields in the Tyne-Tees area....
As a feint, a force of Heinkel seaplanes was to precede the operation by
flying
towards the Scottish coast north of Edinburgh to draw any unlikely fighters
north and away from the main attacks.

'But the German bombers made a serious navigational error: they made landfall
seventy-five miles too far north, thus almost coinciding with the point of
the
mock attack. 'Thanks to this error'...'the mock attack achieved the opposite
of what we intended. The British fighter defence force was not only alerted
in
good time, but made contact with the genuine attacking force.'...

Dowding in his 'Despatch' made this comment on Stumpff's surprise assault on
the north-east: '...the bombers received such a drubbing that the experiment
was not repeated'."

--Richard Hough and Denis Richards (The Battle of Britain, pp. 173-4)

Inaccuracy in locating the target has not been confined to Usenet "flame
wars".

'England, that dear land of mists.'
--Charlotte Bronte (Villette)

--Nick


Right. The effects of that air raid can still be clearly discerned in the fact
that in several rows of terraced houses in Jesmond, a district near to the
centre of the city (shall we call these "files"...?) there is one "rank" along
which several houses, on several different streets, may be seen to have been
rebuilt, after the air raid, with different bricks from those used in the rest
of the terraces.

"Women are from Venus, Men are from Mytholmroyd" (John Morrison)