On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:42:16 GMT, (Sam Sloan)
wrote:

[snipped]

Just for the case that someone likes to have a less onesided view and
a view that at least makes a bit of sense in contrast to the - once
again - completely ridiculous statement of the original poster, who
supports his view with a statement from one of the involved sides
(ROTFL).

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1149

btw.: Who really doubts the accusations of Pono's manager knowing only
some details of the things that happened in the last months or years?
At least I don't.

Andreas

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:22:36 +0100, Andreas Walkenhorst
wrote:


http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1149

btw.: Who really doubts the accusations of Pono's manager knowing only
some details of the things that happened in the last months or years?
At least I don't.

Andreas

What accusations? I do not see any.

It is clear that FIDE has the right to control its own World
Championship. Ponomariov on the other hand has been finishing last or
near the bottom of recent tournaments. In fact, Ponomariov has never
won a major grandmaster tournament in his entire life. He became the
FIDE World Champion essentially by luck.

FIDE has gone to exceptional lengths to accommodate Ponomariov. I do
not see how FIDE can go any further.

Sam Sloan

From: Andreas Walkenhorst
Date: 27/08/03 16:24 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:48:29 GMT, EZoto wrote:


http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1149

In my opinion it looks to me that Pono is just afraid of Kasparov. It
doesn't look like the issue is money so why the fuss? In my opinion
just ignore Pono and if Kasparov was a real man then play the match
you should have played. Play Shirov and the winner plays the winner
of Kramnik - Leko. There. Everythings settled.

Let me just ask some questions:

- If the winner of the final of the reunifiction match will be the new
champ (which IMO makes the Kasparov vs Pono match per definition a
semi final) why does FIDE insist on the position that the winner of
the match K vs P will be FIDE champ? Who profits from that position???

- If this *is* a Championship match (which FIDE claims), why does Pono
does not get the usual advantage of the champ (if the match is drawn
the old champ holds his title. In fact originally FIDE tried to settle
the contract the other way round: In case of a draw the challenger
(!!!!) should get the title)? Who profits from that position???

Concerning your argumentation: Why the heck should Pono fear Kasparov?
If he'd loose, the chess world will say that this was just normal.
If he'd win he will not only prove that he is a world class player,
but also would completely demolish Kasparovs reputation.
He has nothing to fear and nothing to loose, as he has time for other
shots at the chamionship, Kasparov probably not.

Ignore Pono? He is the champ. Even FIDE may be unable to ignore its
own champ. IMO ignoring Kasparov would be correct, as he did nothing
to qualify for this match. He refused to play Dortmund, though before
the K vs K match in London he signed a conrtract that he had to play
that tourney if he looses the match.

But as FIDE (not Pono!) seems to do anything to not let the match
happen (who profits from that???), I guess Kasparov will be champ
without a single move.

Now taking in account the most important motto "cui bono", "who
profits", IMO we have a hint who *really* fears that match.

Andreas


This is a sound argument. I cannot make a dint in it. Can anyone?

Mark

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:48:29 GMT, EZoto wrote:


http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1149

In my opinion it looks to me that Pono is just afraid of Kasparov. It
doesn't look like the issue is money so why the fuss? In my opinion
just ignore Pono and if Kasparov was a real man then play the match
you should have played. Play Shirov and the winner plays the winner
of Kramnik - Leko. There. Everythings settled.

Let me just ask some questions:

- If the winner of the final of the reunifiction match will be the new
champ (which IMO makes the Kasparov vs Pono match per definition a
semi final) why does FIDE insist on the position that the winner of
the match K vs P will be FIDE champ? Who profits from that position???

- If this *is* a Championship match (which FIDE claims), why does Pono
does not get the usual advantage of the champ (if the match is drawn
the old champ holds his title. In fact originally FIDE tried to settle
the contract the other way round: In case of a draw the challenger
(!!!!) should get the title)? Who profits from that position???

Concerning your argumentation: Why the heck should Pono fear Kasparov?
If he'd loose, the chess world will say that this was just normal.
If he'd win he will not only prove that he is a world class player,
but also would completely demolish Kasparovs reputation.
He has nothing to fear and nothing to loose, as he has time for other
shots at the chamionship, Kasparov probably not.

Ignore Pono? He is the champ. Even FIDE may be unable to ignore its
own champ. IMO ignoring Kasparov would be correct, as he did nothing
to qualify for this match. He refused to play Dortmund, though before
the K vs K match in London he signed a conrtract that he had to play
that tourney if he looses the match.

But as FIDE (not Pono!) seems to do anything to not let the match
happen (who profits from that???), I guess Kasparov will be champ
without a single move.

Now taking in account the most important motto "cui bono", "who
profits", IMO we have a hint who *really* fears that match.

Andreas

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:45:48 GMT, (Sam Sloan)
wrote:

[snip]

What accusations? I do not see any.

maybe you should read everything at the link.

It is clear that FIDE has the right to control its own World
Championship. Ponomariov on the other hand has been finishing last or
near the bottom of recent tournaments. In fact, Ponomariov has never
won a major grandmaster tournament in his entire life. He became the
FIDE World Champion essentially by luck.

Sorry, but this argumentation is nonsense. Pono is champ. Full stop.
And if you tell me that it was luck that he got champ (which is
completely irrelevant btw), I guess you should play over his games.
If you tell me that he did not win world class tourneys (which is
completely irrelevant btw), I may remind you that he just did not play
*many* of them. and - at least - in Dos Hermanos, FIDE officials
insisted to talk to him about the match *during* (!!) his games.
Really good for the concentration I guess.

FIDE has gone to exceptional lengths to accommodate Ponomariov. I do
not see how FIDE can go any further.

Accomodate Pono? When the only thing that FIDE does is share Kasparovs
positions? This is just ridiculous.

Andreas

Pono is champ of what?
World-class player? Sure, of course.
Getting a bum rap here? Yeah, he is.
Does he have some good points? All right, yep.
Is he being treated like an inferior? Yeah, I suppose.
Was the KO tournament of speedgames he won very strong? Yeah.
World Champion? Now we`ve moved from legitimate questions to joke
territory. Yeah, KO tournaments of speedgames are cute and all, but who in
their right mind would take that as a serious method to determine a WORLD
CHAMPION? What`s next, chess champion determined by crazyhouse or shuffle
chess? How about 1 minute bullet? Sounds like we`re moving in that
direction if we accept FIDE`s KO thing as a world championship match. I
find it good for a few laughs, it cracks me up that they expect people to
take it seriously. Then I want to cry when I realise people actually do.

The one thing I`ll say is, Kasparov is no more World Champion right now than
Ponomariov is. Kasparov is an EX-World Champ, but this treating him special
DISTURBS ME greatly. It harkens back in my mind to the days of Botvinnik,
and I don`t like seeing Kaspy get preferential treatment like this. He`s
the best player of all time but he LOST. Alekhine was better than Euwe but
when he lost he LOST. Because of the FIDE Elo list that Kasparov gets this
treatment? This is a dangerous can of worms to open and I`m not at all
comfortable with how they`re handling this. I don`t think Kasparov OR
Ponomariov should have gotten any kind of preferential treatment in this
matter, neither is World Champion right now or the determined challenger
(Leko). And that whole Dortmund thing to determine the challenger was very
selective and inappropriate also, I don`t like any of this crap.

They gotta move back to candidates cycles, they have to. That`s the best
thing I think can happen.


PS: As an aside, people seem to accept a Kasparov-Kramnik rematch as a
given. I just want to say, I think Leko will surprise everyone and though I
think Kramnik`s peak strength is better than Leko`s, people counting the
Hungarian out are taking a risky position!




"Andreas Walkenhorst" wrote in message
...

Sorry, but this argumentation is nonsense. Pono is champ. Full stop.
And if you tell me that it was luck that he got champ (which is
completely irrelevant btw), I guess you should play over his games.
If you tell me that he did not win world class tourneys (which is
completely irrelevant btw), I may remind you that he just did not play
*many* of them. and - at least - in Dos Hermanos, FIDE officials
insisted to talk to him about the match *during* (!!) his games.
Really good for the concentration I guess.

FIDE has gone to exceptional lengths to accommodate Ponomariov. I do
not see how FIDE can go any further.

Accomodate Pono? When the only thing that FIDE does is share Kasparovs
positions? This is just ridiculous.

Andreas

"Joshua B. Lilly" wrote in message
news:3f4b90e9_1@newsfeed...
[snip]
They gotta move back to candidates cycles, they have to. That`s the best
thing I think can happen.

If that's your point, I completely agree. This was a way to determine the WC
that to me seemed appropriate and - if this is possible - fair (at least
much fairer than the current way).

Anyway, I guess there are some points I guess, that question the whole
argumentation:
When Anand won the FIDE WC, nobody whined about his luck, and the unfair
system, and all those things. Public opinion was that he deserved it. So
could it be possible that all this whining is about the "wrong" person that
won the title? Could it be that all all those "conditions" and "terms"
arguments are just hiding the fact that many chess players and journalists
are fan of this or that player and as their favorite did not become WC, they
now are arguing about this and that part of the cycle?
Isn't it interesting that all those claims about terms and conditions
appeared when Karpov (still the most hated living person in chess among the
ordinary patzer I guess) got FIDE WC, competely disappeared when everybody's
darling Anand got the title and re-appeared when Pono (whose reputation
seems to be already demolished by the Kasparov-Press as I call it) got
champ?

The situation is as it is. One may claim that FIDE is corrupt, or that chess
is bigger than FIDE, or that the title does not belong to FIDE or whatever
comes into ones mind.
But it is just a mere fact - as Kasparov proved - only an organization like
FIDE can organize chess championships on the long term.
This means that there's only one way that ensures that the title of the
World Chess Champion will survive (which I really doubt currently): Play it
under the aegide of FIDE.

And a last question, that once again is about "cui bono": Assumed there will
be no match at all ( I doubt that FIDE is able to find sponsors for a match
Ivanchuk vs Kasparov), and there will be no "World Chess Champion": Who will
profit from that again?
So Kasparov was able to put himself into a situation where he will be the
winner, no matter what happens.
But with *one* single, simple exception: If there will be a match vs Pono,
and if he looses that match. But I guess he will find ways to avoid that.
Not the loosing of the match, but the event itself.

Andreas

When Anand won the annual FIDE KO tournament, I think I did not even know
his name, I didn`t know what FIDE was, and I didn`t know the rules of chess
(the person who "taught" me chess originally, showed me the Rooks moved like
Bishops and vice versa; no kidding. Imagine how powerful fianchettos were
in our little games!). If I DID know then what I know now, I would have
said the same stuff about him as about Ponomariov. Sure, I like Anand more,
but that`s irrelevant since I believe this is universal, no matter how nice
he is, he was NEVER World Champion. Even if I`d cheer for him to win a real
World Championship match, he never has. Anyone who considered Anand World
Champion is, as far as I`m concerned, morally obliged to recognise
Ponomariov as such, unless they`ve completely reversed their view on the
whole thing. Anand was in no way "more legitimate" than Ponomariov. 0
legitimacy as World Champ = 0 legitimacy as World Champ in my book, being a
fan of one or the other has nothing to do with it.

I think Kasparov has a couple more years of profitibility left. He`ll
retire with a healthy pension when all`s said and done, but I think once
he`s no longer clearly the best (probably not far off at all now) his
assholish and childish behaviour will make him very unpopular. Right now he
gets away with murder (not literally like Kirsan, I mean figuratively)
because he`s THE BEST. Probably age will reduce him before someone better
comes along, but probably someone in the next 25 years or so will peak at a
strength superior to Kasparov`s best, impossible though that may seem to me
now. Of course, I probably would have said "nobody can possibly surpass
Fischer`s peak!" back in his heyday, it must have seemed impossible to most
chess fans in those days that he would ever be surpassed.

Kasparov`s in a win-win situation. Pardon my language, but he`s shown
himself time and time again that when the bull**** starts flying, he`s not
afraid to roll in it if he can climb out with a fistfull of dollars, though
he stinks to high heaven through almost every situation he`s involved with.




"Andreas Walkenhorst" wrote in message
...

"Joshua B. Lilly" wrote in message
news:3f4b90e9_1@newsfeed...
[snip]
They gotta move back to candidates cycles, they have to. That`s the best
thing I think can happen.

If that's your point, I completely agree. This was a way to determine the
WC
that to me seemed appropriate and - if this is possible - fair (at least
much fairer than the current way).

Anyway, I guess there are some points I guess, that question the whole
argumentation:
When Anand won the FIDE WC, nobody whined about his luck, and the unfair
system, and all those things. Public opinion was that he deserved it. So
could it be possible that all this whining is about the "wrong" person
that
won the title? Could it be that all all those "conditions" and "terms"
arguments are just hiding the fact that many chess players and journalists
are fan of this or that player and as their favorite did not become WC,
they
now are arguing about this and that part of the cycle?
Isn't it interesting that all those claims about terms and conditions
appeared when Karpov (still the most hated living person in chess among
the
ordinary patzer I guess) got FIDE WC, competely disappeared when
everybody's
darling Anand got the title and re-appeared when Pono (whose reputation
seems to be already demolished by the Kasparov-Press as I call it) got
champ?

The situation is as it is. One may claim that FIDE is corrupt, or that
chess
is bigger than FIDE, or that the title does not belong to FIDE or whatever
comes into ones mind.
But it is just a mere fact - as Kasparov proved - only an organization
like
FIDE can organize chess championships on the long term.
This means that there's only one way that ensures that the title of the
World Chess Champion will survive (which I really doubt currently): Play
it
under the aegide of FIDE.

And a last question, that once again is about "cui bono": Assumed there
will
be no match at all ( I doubt that FIDE is able to find sponsors for a
match
Ivanchuk vs Kasparov), and there will be no "World Chess Champion": Who
will
profit from that again?
So Kasparov was able to put himself into a situation where he will be the
winner, no matter what happens.
But with *one* single, simple exception: If there will be a match vs Pono,
and if he looses that match. But I guess he will find ways to avoid that.
Not the loosing of the match, but the event itself.

Andreas

Andreas Walkenhorst wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:45:48 GMT, (Sam Sloan)
wrote:

[snip]

What accusations? I do not see any.

maybe you should read everything at the link.

It is clear that FIDE has the right to control its own World
Championship. Ponomariov on the other hand has been finishing last or
near the bottom of recent tournaments. In fact, Ponomariov has never
won a major grandmaster tournament in his entire life. He became the
FIDE World Champion essentially by luck.

Sorry, but this argumentation is nonsense. Pono is champ. Full stop.
And if you tell me that it was luck that he got champ (which is
completely irrelevant btw), I guess you should play over his games.
If you tell me that he did not win world class tourneys (which is
completely irrelevant btw), I may remind you that he just did not play
*many* of them. and - at least - in Dos Hermanos, FIDE officials
insisted to talk to him about the match *during* (!!) his games.
Really good for the concentration I guess.

FIDE has gone to exceptional lengths to accommodate Ponomariov. I do
not see how FIDE can go any further.

Accomodate Pono? When the only thing that FIDE does is share Kasparovs
positions? This is just ridiculous.

Andreas
_________________________________
It looks like a showdown in the negotiations is scheduled for high
noon tomorrow. It's time for the World #12 to step up to the plate if
he wants a shot at the World #1.

The FIDE response from www.fide.com can be found he

FIDE RESPONSE TO THE STATEMENT BY THE ORGANISING COMMITTEE OF THE
PONOMARIOV-KASPAROV WORLD CHESS CHAMPIONSHIP MATCH

Our attention has been drawn to the statements purportedly credited to
the Organising Committee of the Ponomariov-Kasparov World Chess
Championship match regarding the conditions which the World Champion
wants FIDE to accept before he will agree to sign the players'
agreement for the match. The Organising Committee claimed in its
statement that the 4 proposals of World Champion Ponomariov were
officially sent to the FIDE President on 23 August 2003 without a
written reply. For the avoidance of doubt, FIDE maintains that no
official letter addressed to the FIDE President has been received in
the Secretariat neither has one been sent from the Organisers to the
FIDE President's office in Moscow. We can confirm that unofficially,
the information from the Organisers was received in the office of the
President of Kalmykia in Elista, but without any signatures on the
document, which was not on the official letterhead of the Organising
Committee, in which the 4 proposals of World Champion R. Ponomariov
were enumerated. In spite of this unofficial approach, FIDE
communicated with the Manager of Mr. Ponomariov Mr. Silvio Danailov
and the Organising Committee and informed them of FIDE's response to
these 4 proposals, which is again highlighted below in this document.
Meanwhile, World Champion R. Ponomariov has not communicated his
requests officially to FIDE, neither has he signed his players'
contract within the deadline stipulated by the Presidential Board.

FIDE believes as a matter of principle, that the Organising Committee
for any of its matches for the World Chess Championship should not be
seen to take sides on behalf of any of the players involved in the
Championship. Therefore, it is unfortunate that the Yalta 2003
Organising Committee is seen to be taking sides with World Champion R.
Ponomariov in a matter that is strictly between the player and FIDE.

While FIDE appreciates that this unfortunate situation may have a
reason due to misunderstanding, it also has the feeling that this
situation has created confusion for World Champion R. Ponomariov,
therefore in a last effort to save the match the FIDE President has
decided to grant a further extension until 1200 noon Thursday 28
August 2003 to World Champion R. Ponomariov to sign and fax his
player's agreement to the FIDE Secretariat.

The FIDE Presidential Board at its recent meeting in Abuja, Nigeria,
17 August 2003 emphasised that its duty, in line with the Prague
Agreement, is to protect the overall authority of FIDE with regard to
the World Chess Championship title. Therefore, for principle reasons,
FIDE is giving for the last time, the following answers to the
proposals of World Champion Ruslan Ponomariov, a process which it has
fully documented since December 2002:

1. With regard to the request of World Champion Ruslan Ponomariov for
the exclusion from his contract of any reference to the possibility
for FIDE to replace the players of the match, FIDE rejects this
proposal. This is based on the grounds that should such a proposal be
accepted FIDE would run the risk that the World Champion or indeed any
of the players can hold it to ransom on any frivolous reason. FIDE
maintains that it should be able to act whenever necessary and as a
matter of principle, when any of the players is in fundamental breach
of the contract or regulations for the match.

2. FIDE welcomes the request of World Champion R. Ponomariov for the
regulations for the World Chess Championship match as approved by the
Presidential Board to be complied with. The only change is in the
schedule for the match, where an extra free day is introduced in the
event of the tie. This change, the basis of which has been
communicated to World Champion R. Ponomariov and the Yalta Organising
Committee, has been approved by the Presidential Board and is in line
with the Regulations for the 2003 Ponomariov-Kasparov World Chess
Championship match.

3. With regard to the issue of the appointment of a Russian-speaking
Arbiter, FIDE has already accepted that one of the Arbiters that the
President will appoint shall be from the list of 3 nominees submitted
by World Champion R. Ponomariov.

4. FIDE understands and has already accepted that it is in the
interest of fair play that the accredited laboratory for the
anti-doping tests should be in a neutral country, not in Russia or the
Ukraine.

In all of its negotiations with the players, FIDE has tried to
maintain a fair balance between the two players. Contrary to the
impression, which the recent statements have tried to portray, the
FIDE leadership has accepted a lot of proposals of World Champion R.
Ponomariov. At the same time, it has rejected nearly all of the
proposals of Grandmaster Garry Kasparov, who incidentally has signed
his players' agreement without any conditions. We hope that if he
really wants to play this match, World Champion R. Ponomariov will now
proceed and sign his player's agreement without any further
reservations. For the avoidance of doubt, FIDE will insist that the
hosting of any of its events shall be done with a strict sense of
neutrality and fairness by the Organisers. Accordingly, FIDE shall
demand that the hosting of the Ponomariov-Kasparov World Chess
Championship match, starting 18 September 2003 in Yalta is done
without any compromise of its principles of fairness to both players.
After the deadline of 12 noon Thursday 28 August 2003 the FIDE
President shall issue a statement regarding the future of the
Ponomariov-Kasparov World Chess Championship match.

Lausanne, 26 August 2003.

This is a sound argument. I cannot make a dint in it. Can anyone?

Mark

I'll give it a shot. You say Pono is champion. Agreed. So what is
the problem? It sounds to me that Kasparov is experienced in matters
like this than Pono and it looks like Pono doesn't like it. I hate to
say this but Kasparov sees everything to take advantage here of an
inexperienced Pono to his advantage. As the saying goes it is
business. It's about money. If the match happened Kasparov would be
the draw and the money maker. Not Pono. And it appears the Pono camp
doesn't like it.

EZoto