Heil Dubya!

When I was in the sixth grade, I had a teacher, Mrs. Wilson, who used to tell
us how wonderful it was to live in the United States. Her favorite reason was
that, while people had to carry identification at all times in other countries,
we could walk the streets with no identification at all and, as long as we were
peaceful, we were safe from governmental interference. Oh, well, tempus fugit.

Infringement of Human Rights and False Arrest in Grand Central Station

On Wednesday morning, 10 September, I went to New York, as I do almost every
Wednesday, to coach S. S., a dear friend, in chess. This is one of the small
pleasures of my life, particularly because my friend is 97 years old and keeps
alive in me the hope that I shall be as vital as she, if and when I reach my
98th year.

I planned to stop in Mount Vernon, on my way back, to visit another friend, so
I purchased three tickets at the Metropolitan Transit Authority (MTA) station
in White Plains, where I live: one from White Plains to Grand Central Terminal;
one from Grand Central Terminal to Mount Vernon; and one from Mount Vernon to
White Plains. The charges were $4.00 for the first ticket, $3.50 for the
second ticket and $1.00 for the third ticket. (I am 75 years old, so pay
reduced fares, as a "senior citizen".)

As often is the case, I enjoyed myself so much at the home of S. S. that I left
it much later than originally intended. I called my Mount Vernon friend, who
found a late visit inconvenient, so we cancelled our appointment and arranged
another date and time to meet. As the saying goes, "No problem."

When I arrived at Grand Central Station, of course, I went to the ticket office
to exchange my two tickets (GCT to MV and MV to W, as they were designated on
the tickets) for a single ride to White Plains - and a fifty cent refund.
There, the clerk asked me for identification.

"Why?" I asked. "Where is it written?"

I don't remember the exact response, but I do remember that my questions were
not answered. Instead, I was ordered to provide identification, if I wanted to
exchange my two tickets for one ticket and a fifty cent refund. Those were the
regulations, I was told, and they didn't have to show me where it was written.

I refused to provide the ordered identification.

The clerk told me to move on, if I wouldn't show identification. I refused to
do this, too, so we were at a brief impasse. This didn't last long, because
the clerk left her window to get a supervisor, who, when he arrived, supported
the clerk's position that identification was required, because those were the
regulations: no identification, no exchange of tickets and no refund. (He also
ignored the question about "where was it written.")

I refused again, so the supervisor repeated the injunction of the clerk: move
on. When I stood my ground at the ticket window, he summoned the MTA police.
I am of average size (five feet nine inches and 185 pounds), so only four
members of the force showed up. They wore badge numbers 2273, 2337, 2461 and
2480.

They tried to "reason" with me. Essentially, their points were that it wasn't
worth my trouble to refuse to show identification over a fifty cent refund;
that, were I to be arrested, it would be a terrible inconvenience for me and
that I would be put in jail, probably overnight, with felons and other
miscreants. (The former was their word, but I supply the latter.) Why not be
a good boy (None of them was old enough to be, normally, my child; I believe
all could have been my grandchildren.), show the identification and go home to
White Plains. I think they did achieve one goal; they got me away from the
ticket window.

After a brief discussion, we went our separate ways and I returned to the
ticket window where the quiet scene of five to ten minutes earlier was
repeated. This time, when the MTA police were called, only two showed up.
Apparently, they had met the enemy and decided that it was not imposing enough
for four officers. This time, there was little discussion. I was arrested and
brought to the MTA police station. It was an uncomfortable - but not
frightening -- experience. What I disliked most was being handcuffed behind my
back, with cuffs that were rather too tight (and left an impression on my skin,
which I noticed when they were removed).

In the police station, I was searched and had everything removed from my
pockets. My money was removed from its wallet and, after being counted, was
stuffed into my shirt pocket. Everything else was kept by the MTA police. I
believe the arresting officer intended to keep all my medications, but I
appealed to the sergeant on duty, who allowed me to have my nitroglycerine. I
was told to remove my shoes, which they kept, and locked up. Despite having my
identification, the arresting officer asked me several questions, to identify
me, such as name, address and date of birth. The poor man was most annoyed.
Here, he was, stuck arresting a 75-year-old eccentric, when, as he told me, he
was needed for more important duties, like "the war on terrorists". ("You are
taking us away from serious things, like 9-11" and other such words of
opprobrium, which I tuned out, after the first sentence,)

The sergeant who allowed me to keep my nitroglycerine, seemed to want to get
rid of this nuisance, so he asked me if I would go home quietly - not return to
the ticket window - if I received a ticket to White Plains and fifty cents. I
told him, "Of course. That's what I wanted from the beginning." He told me he
would see what he could do. About a half hour or a little more later, he
returned with the ticket to White Plains, the fifty cents and a summons to
answer a charge of "DISCON" at 314 W 54 St, Summons Part AR 6, on 15 October
2003. I plan to plead, "Not guilty", of course. I also plan to sue the MTA
for infringement of my human rights and for false arrest. (If anyone knows a
lawyer who is willing to take these cases on a pro bono basis, I would
appreciate a contact.)

("Dammittohell!" in my favorite exclamation of Nils's Uncle Chris. The 15th of
October is a Wednesday and I shall miss my date with S. S.)

Heute Uhmuhrikkka, Afghanistan und Irak. Morgen die ganze Welt!

Uhmuhrikkka, Uhmuhrikkka uber Alles!

(Was 11 September 2001 Kristalnacht or the date of the Reichstag fire?)

Fraternally,

Jerome Bibuld

gens una sumus

snip
Tell me what I'm missing. A reasonable request was made for evidence in
writing. This was not forthcoming. OP stood up for himself instead of just
doing what he was told. The response in this NG is generally: 'You must obey
without question'. I thought the point of Stanley Milgram's experiments was
to connect slavish unquestioning obedience to Second World War genocide. See
also 'Hitler's Willing Executioner's'. See also 'The Ascent of Man'. See
also 'Lisa the Vegetarian':

Lisa: Uhh, Miss Hoover? I don't think I can dissect an animal. I think
it's wrong.
Hoover: Okay Lisa, I respect your moral objection.
[Presses the "Independent Thought Alarm" button under her desk.]

cheers

dd

BIBULD AT HIS BEST

By Larry Parr

More power to Jerry Bibuld for refusing to give his identification to
the clerks. I like to think I would have done the same, though I concede that
after being led away from the window by four cops I might not have gone back
for another go-round.

One lawyer who might have taken this case is a dear old friend, a
libertarian now on the Washington State Supreme Court. He was once arrested
for refusing to leave his automobile which was being towed. He was sued for
false arrest -- and lost. He sued the Post-Intelligencer in Seattle for a
libel and collected about $150,000.

Mr. Bibuld got his refund and ticket without providing his ID, though the
cops confiscated it. That's fine. Bibuld held to the point at issue.

This was Bibuld at His Best.

For others on this forum, of course, it was Bibuld at His Dottiest. So
what's wrong with national identity cards and cops asking for "your papers" and
perhaps later saying, "Yore, papers appeeer to be in ohrder, Herr Bibuld."

It is the difference between what used to be called the Old and New
Worlds.

..
He was once arrested for refusing to leave his automobile
which was being towed. He was sued for false arrest -- and lost.


He sued for false-arrest, and lost.



Mr. Bibuld got his refund and ticket without providing his ID, though the
cops confiscated it. That's fine. Bibuld held to the point at issue.


No. The point at issue was "where is it written...?", and to this day, Mr.
Bibuld does not know where, or why.
He only knows that this will get him some attention, and if he does not
"improve" [i.e. change] his attitude, some jail time as well. I think it was
already explained here why such records must be maintained of cash refunds,
just as with rebates -- to discourage abuse.



This was Bibuld at His Best.


At his worst, rather. At his best, Mr. Bibuld can thrash the United States
of Uhhmuricuuh with the best of them. Bibuld is quite good when it comes to
ranting and raving about racism, and other pet peeves. But this, this was
merely a copycat re-run of Fischer's Passadena jailhouse incident, and nowhere
near as entertaining. And Fischer was approached by the police, without first
doing anything stupid. Mr. Bibuld was creating a (miniscule) public
disturbance, by obstinately blocking a ticket window. His conduct was
(slightly) disorderly, in that he refused to get out of the way so that other
customers could be served. If Larry Evans had been next in line, we would have
seen a five-thousand-word rant from Larry Parr, assasinating Mr. Bibuld's
character, soon followed by a book!

It is safe to say that Larry Parr is tickled-pink by Mr. Bibuld's latest
adventure, merely because he agreed with some of what Mr. Parr has been writing
of late, about our constitutional rights being trampled by a BIG government,
which needs shrinking down to size.
But here the failure was not with the government, nor the police department
-- it was a failure by the ticket counterperson and his boss, to politely
explain why they needed to see Mr. Bibuld's ID in order to comply with his
request. "Where is it written? Show me." "No -- go away." If Mr. Bibuld
had been a "secret shopper," they would both have been in hot water. And if he
had a gun....?

Try taking your child to school or attending University without proper
identification. Isn't education supposed to be free? Why should you have to
identify yourself to get what you feel is your right.

For one thing, proper identification prevents double dipping. (Yes, Virginia,
there are some very greedy people out there.) of government services that tax
payers can barely afford once. I know, "In order to help the needy, we have to
get past the greedy."

The Post office requires identification before you can get your mail. You
wouldn't want someone else to get your stuff.
Teachers and schools are part of the government too. When you go to parent
teacher conferences you have to identify yourself so that the privacy of others
can be respected.

Notice that the Police offices were required to identify themselves and their
badge numbers were duely noted.

Another issue is that the mentally, often can't identify themselves or are
unwilling to do so. One job of the police is to determine if these persons
present a danger to themselves or others. If you are unwilling to identify
yourself, maybe you don't know what day it is or who the President of the
United States is?

In one school where I taught, one of the students was constantly asking people
if they knew who he was . When they said, "Yes, you're Joe Smith," he would
thank them for the information. Fifteen minutes later he would be asking people
what is name was again.

I don't remember the exact response, but I do remember that my questions were
not answered. Instead, I was ordered to provide identification, if I wanted
to
exchange my two tickets for one ticket and a fifty cent refund. Those were
the regulations I was told, and they didn't have to show me where it was
written.

Actually the clerk is probably as much to blame for this incident as Mr.Jerome
Bibuld. His request to see the regulations wasn't out of line and should have
been complied with. A knowledgeable clerk should have been able to meet this
request. The main regulations could have even been posted for all to read. Mr
Bibuld never stated that he would not have complied with the demand for
identification once the saw the request in an official written form. Of course
in his position as a transit authority employee the clerk probably can request
identification as necessary to perform his job.

What would Mr. Bibuld have done if the clerk had simply written on a piece of
paper, "You must produce legal identification when requested to do so?"

His request would have been in writting would it not?

"NoMoreChess",

Heil Dubya!

How wrong you are! Of course, if I had been shown where it was written, I
would have cried, "Fascism!" and refused to have complied. (Perhaps you
haven't read that I learned from George Jackson -- BLOOD IN MY EYE -- that
fascism is the UNITY of the bourgoisie and the government. I have posted this
information on these fora in the past.)

Larry Parr is RIGHT. My objection is to a fascist society, which has as one of
its purposes -- in order to "maintain order" -- the forcing of common citizens
to jump through hoops. I do not object to "reasonable requests"; I do consider
ALMOST ALL demands (They ALMOST NEVER are requests.) for "identification" to be
unreasonable.

While I think we agree on certain basic philosophical issues, I also think that
you enjoy playing the troll almost as much as I enjoy winning -- or, even,
losing -- a hard fought -- and accurately played -- chess game, almost any
opera, composed by Verdi or a dozen others, any motion picture by Chaplin. I
DON'T enjoy your troll-PLAYING, which is why I send out the occasional
CORRECTION of it.

NO, it has NOT been "explained here why such records must be maintained of cash
refunds, just as with rebates". It merely has been justified, by repeating the
lies of our rulers.

Mr. Bibuld got his refund and ticket without providing his ID, though the
cops confiscated it. That's fine. Bibuld held to the point at issue.


No. The point at issue was "where is it written...?", and to this day,
Mr.
Bibuld does not know where, or why.
He only knows that this will get him some attention, and if he does not
"improve" [i.e. change] his attitude, some jail time as well. I think it
was
already explained here why such records must be maintained of cash refunds,
just as with rebates -- to discourage abuse.


I not only made no reference to Fischer's booklet on his arrest in Pasadena,
but the only inferences that the the two incidents are related have come from
nincompoops and trolls. [In fact, the two arrests were related, but only in
the sense that both of us were fighting fascism, although poor (in my opinion,
sick) Bobby didn't realize it, while I was doing it "consciously and
maliciously".] As for my conduct being disorderly, that's a phony charge used
as a catchall by the various armies of occupation and their associated police
departments to enforce the suzerainty of their regimes. (I was arrested a few
dozen times during the "civil rights" movement of the 1960s and 70s in the U.
S. A. and believe that ONE of the charges in EVERY case was disorderly conduct.
Since then, in my continued treason against our fascist rulers, I have been
arrested, perhaps, a dozen more times and can;t remember an arrest in which one
of the charges was not "disorderly conduct".)

this was
merely a copycat re-run of Fischer's Passadena jailhouse incident, and
nowhere
near as entertaining. And Fischer was approached by the police, without
first
doing anything stupid. Mr. Bibuld was creating a (miniscule) public
disturbance, by obstinately blocking a ticket window. His conduct was
(slightly) disorderly, in that he refused to get out of the way so that other
customers could be served.

I have refuted the following error of your imagination in my first two
paragraphs above. I repost your words simple to refer you again to those first
paragraphs.

here the failure was not with the government, nor the police department
-- it was a failure by the ticket counterperson and his boss, to politely
explain why they needed to see Mr. Bibuld's ID in order to comply with his
request. "Where is it written? Show me." "No -- go away." If Mr. Bibuld
had been a "secret shopper," they would both have been in hot water.

Finally, despite your apparent thickheadedness, I still believe that "education
is repetition". Please repeat after me: "Uhmuhrikkka, NOT Uhhmuricuuh;
Uhmuhrikkka, NOT Uhhmuricuuh; Uhmuhrikkka, NOT Uhhmuricuuh." It is not
important that there is a small difference in pronunciation. It is TERRIBLY
important that you substitute "c, as in Charlie" for "kkk, as in Ku Klux Klan"

Heute Uhmuhrikkka, Afghanistan und Irak. Morgen die ganze Welt!

Uhmuhrikkka, Uhmuhrikkka uber Alles!

(Was 11 September 2001 Kristalnacht or the date of the Reichstag fire?)

Fraternally (believe it or not),

Jerome Bibuld
gens una sumus

..
"Troll!" "Troll" The sky is falling!

- Jerome Bibuld (in a hissyfit)


Of course, if I had been shown where it was written, I
would have cried, "Fascism!" and refused to have complied.


Then you would not have gotten your refund, and would be out at least 50
cents.


"A fool and his money, are soon parted."


Guess who ended up with all that money?



fascism is the UNITY of the bourgoisie and the government.


Fuddlemuck. Go to dictionary.com and there you will learn that "fascism" is
just another fancy term for our own system of government, which is described
there in glorious detail, though never mentioned by name, for some reason.




My objection is to a fascist society


May I suggest that, instead of merely playing the victim, you do something
constructive to bring about change? What do I have in mind? I don't know, but
making a (miniscule) scene at a subway ticket station seems to miss the mark.
Sam Sloan is the smart one -- ask him for constructive ideas on this.



I DON'T enjoy your troll-PLAYING, which is why I send out
the occasional CORRECTION of it.


I think your *pride* is why you send out spelling corrections. Hubris.
Vanity. Narcisssssizzm. Think about it, MISTER Bibuld.




I not only made no reference to Fischer's booklet on his arrest in Pasadena,


More evidence of pride: this reference was MINE, and the comparison popped
into my "troll-head" because your behavior closely resembled Fischer's
*irrational* behavior, which led to his arrest and imprisonment in Passadena.
Bobby acted precisely the way the man they were looking for might be expected
to act, after just committing a crime.
And besides, he had shifty eyes.


How does Jerome Bibuld getting arrested and fined for stubborness in any way
help solve the problem at hand? A few readers will see this here, and perhaps
give it a little thought, but this is small potatoes compared to what might be
done.



nincompoops and trolls


Thank you. I wasn't quite sure of the correct spelling of nincompoop -- a
word which is rather rare these days. All the old nincompoop namecallers seem
to be slowly dying off.


in my continued treason against our fascist rulers, I have been
arrested, perhaps, a dozen more times and can;t remember an arrest in which
one of the charges was not "disorderly conduct".


Which only shows that your pattern of irrational behavior is quite
predictable. You never learned how to behave properly. I see this sort of
thing all the time: children throwing hissyfits in public, to get what they
want -- and their naive parents caving-in. Foot-stomping is always good
strategy, as is holding your breath. Rolling on the floor, crying, seems to
backfire, often as not -- but then, you must already know all the tricks of the
trade.




Please repeat after me: "Uhmuhrikkka, NOT Uhhmuricuuh;
Uhmuhrikkka, NOT Uhhmuricuuh; Uhmuhrikkka, NOT Uhhmuricuuh.


What can I say -- Alzheimer's? This lesson has been repeatedly beaten into
my "troll-brain," but I keep on slipping up. Mister Bibuld is dead right on
this one.


It is TERRIBLY important that you substitute "c, as in
Charlie" for "kkk, as in Ku Klux Klan"


I knew that. But still, I mucked it up! This reminds me of the sad fate
of nearly all of my chess games.



"Why did you hang your Queen?"

"What do you mean -- isn't this book?"

"No. You were badly misplaying the Schlecter-Pudnarsky variation of the
Botvinnik/Smyslov line, which requires that you first advance your rangers..."

"My what? But I thought we were playing the Ghengis-Kan Defense?"

"DDEckerslyke" wrote in message ...(about Jerome Bibuld's arrest):
Tell me what I'm missing. A reasonable request was made for evidence in
writing. This was not forthcoming. OP stood up for himself instead of just
doing what he was told. The response in this NG is generally: 'You must obey
without question'.

"A substantial proportion of people do what they are told to do, irrespective
of the content of the act and without limitations of conscience, so long as
they perceive that the command comes from a legitimate authority."
--Stanley Milgram (1965)

Dear Mr. Eckerslyke,

My impression is that some of the responses here have been directed not only
against what Jerome Bibuld did on that occasion, but also against what he has
written here (e.g. "Heil Dubya!") on many occasions. Nonetheless, the law
should judge--if it must--Mr. Bibuld by what he does, not by what he believes.

I thought the point of Stanley Milgram's experiments was to connect
slavish unquestioning obedience to Second World War genocide.
See also 'Hitler's Willing Executioner's'....

According to nearly all academic historians of 20th century Germany,
"Hitler's Willing Executioners" has many serious flaws, to say the least.

"Stark authority was pitted against the subjects' strongest moral imperatives
against hurting others, and, with the subjects' ears ringing with the screams
of the victims, authority won more often than not. The extreme willingness of
adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes
the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding
explanation."
--Stanley Milgram (1974, "The Perils of Obedience)

--Nick

ospam (Jerome Bibuld) wrote in message ...
Heil Dubya!

When I was in the sixth grade, I had a teacher, Mrs. Wilson, who used to tell
us how wonderful it was to live in the United States. Her favorite reason was
that, while people had to carry identification at all times in other countries,
we could walk the streets with no identification at all and, as long as we were
peaceful, we were safe from governmental interference.

I think even then, she was just plain wrong. What's the point
of having ID's if you can leave them at home? Having ID's and
being required to carry them is the same thing. Incidentally,
here in the UK we don't have ID's, although my bet is they'll
be introduced pretty soon.

Marco