(Randy Bauer) wrote in message m...
(LeModernCaveman) wrote in message ...
Okay, now say the teacher asked a female student to stay after class,
without any reference to sex.
Should the FBI be able to send a lookalike agent into the classroom posing
as the girl based on what the teacher did?

Since we've been running through so many of the bad forms of argumentation in
these Sherzer threads, I guess it was just a matter of time until we got a
big juicy example of reductio ad absurdum.

credo quia absurdum (evidently misattributed to Tertullian)

Dear Mr. Bauer,

'Reductio ad absurdum' from LeModernCaveman? Surely, you jest! :-)

Can we kinda sorta stick to realistic possibilities of the ramifications of
Internet or similar sting operations? I'll admit they are worth discussing,
but trying to draw parallels between a 32 year old trolling the Internet for
conversation with "beautiful" 15 year olds on topics of life, love, and all
points in between and a teacher engaged in their normal duties is, well,
absurd.

Or a potential subject for a postmodern drama. :-)

Mind you, I am not saying that there aren't teachers who cross the line with
students, and they too should be investigated and, if their conduct warrants,
disciplined/prosecuted.

'O tempores, o mores!'

In 1913, while teaching at the Ferrer Modern School in New York City, Will
Durant (age 28) married one of his students, Ada (or Ida) Kaufman (age 15),
who became known as Mrs. Ariel Durant. Will and Ariel Durant collaborated
in writing the eleven volumes of 'The Story of Civilization' (1935-75).
The couple described their long life together in 'A Dual Autobiography' (1977).
Perhaps appropriately, neither of them ever had to endure a long period of
grieving after the other one's death. Ariel Durant died on 25 October 1981;
Will Durant died on 7 November 1981.

How should Will Durant's relationship with his inamorata be regarded today?

However, suggesting that a teacher asking a student to stay after class,
without exigent circumstances, would warrant FBI involvement is, well, you
know, fill in the blank.

Perhaps, to enforce the USA Patriot Act, the FBI agent might be investigating
which books had been checked out from the school library? :-)

'What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?'
--Tertullian

--Nick

On 24 Sep 2003 13:42:12 -0700, (Nick) wrote:

In 1913, while teaching at the Ferrer Modern School in New York City, Will
Durant (age 28) married one of his students, Ada (or Ida) Kaufman (age 15),

How should Will Durant's relationship with his inamorata be regarded today?

Tertullian? Durant? -- how about Jerry Lee Lewis or Mohammed? Times
have changed, laws have been tightened, and childhood's a lot longer
than it used to be.

I'm kind of coming into this late, and maybe this has already been established
in a press release, but I'll ask anyway: has it been documented that Mr.
Sherzer indeed knew that the girl was 15 prior to his planning their rendevous?
He must have, right? I just haven't seen any statements that clarify this.

From: (Rrb828)

has it been documented that Mr.
Sherzer indeed knew that the girl was 15 prior to his planning their
rendevous?

He knew her age before he contacted her for the first time.
CJ the Brick

(Nick) wrote in message . com...
(Randy Bauer) wrote in message m...
Mind you, I am not saying that there aren't teachers who cross the line
with students, and they too should be investigated and, if their conduct
warrants, disciplined/prosecuted.

'O tempores, o mores!'

Sorry, 'O tempora! O mores!' (Cicero)

I was making only a historical observation.

Presumably, human nature, including the dynamics of relationships between young
females and older males, has not changed, yet 'the line' of acceptable conduct
between teachers and their students has not stayed in the same place.

In 1913, while teaching at the Ferrer Modern School in New York City, Will
Durant (age 28) married one of his students, Ada (or Ida) Kaufman (age 15),
who became known as Mrs. Ariel Durant. Will and Ariel Durant collaborated
in writing the eleven volumes of 'The Story of Civilization' (1935-75).
The couple described their long life together in 'A Dual Autobiography'(1977).
Perhaps appropriately, neither of them ever had to endure a long period of
grieving after the other one's death. Ariel Durant died on 25 October 1981;
Will Durant died on 7 November 1981.

Not having heard all the evidence presented to the jury, I have not formed a
conclusive opinion on whether or not the 'Sherzer case looks like entrapment'.

'What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?'
--Tertullian

--Nick

Mike Murray wrote in message . ..
On 24 Sep 2003 13:42:12 -0700, (Nick) wrote:
In 1913, while teaching at the Ferrer Modern School in New York City, Will
Durant (age 28) married one of his students, Ada (or Ida) Kaufman (age 15)
(snipped)
How should Will Durant's relationship with his inamorata be regarded today?

Tertullian? Durant? -- how about Jerry Lee Lewis or Mohammed?
Times have have changed,

Yet has human nature changed enough with the times?

laws have been tightened, and childhood's a lot longer than it used to be.

Yes, today a child's place should be in the classroom, not the coal mine.

I do not contend that what Alex Sherzer allegedly did was justified or excused
by what Will Durant did under different circumstances ninety years earlier.

'O tempora! O mores!' (Cicero)

--Nick

(LeModernCaveman) wrote in message ...
Nick wrote to Mike Murray:
(snipped)
I do not contend that what Alex Sherzer allegedly did was justified or
excused by what Will Durant did under different circumstances ninety years
earlier.

What did Sherzer do wrong other than travel and seek premarital sex?
In Alabama, it is legal for married 14 year-old females to have sex.

'There is no logic like the logic of the heart.'
--Charlotte Lennox (Henrietta)

Does anyone else notice the inconsistency between 1) "seek *premarital* sex"
and 2) "it is *legal for married* 14 year-old females to have sex"?

To criminalize what Sherzer did is to criminalize travel, or to criminalize
premarital sex, because absent those two elements, he wouldn't have been
guilty of anything.

If "those two elements" were not criminalized, then Alex Sherzer would not be
facing a criminal trial now.

'The law is very obliging, but more polite than efficient.'
--Edward George Earle Bulwer-Lytton (The Last Days of Pompeii)

--Nick

(LeModernCaveman) wrote in message ...
What did Sherzer do wrong other than travel and seek premarital sex?
In Alabama, it is legal for married 14 year-old females to have sex.

'There is no logic like the logic of the heart.'
--Charlotte Lennox (Henrietta)

Does anyone else notice the inconsistency between 1) "seek *premarital* sex"
and 2) "it is *legal for married* 14 year-old females to have sex"?

Which means that if Sherzer had lived in Alabama and been married to the girl,
what he was accused of *intending* to do would have been perfectly legal.

'If' is the title of a poem by Rudyard Kipling. :-)

If sex is so harmful to 14 year-olds, why does Alabama make it legal if they
are married?

Perhaps Alabama's legislators believe that sexual relations within a marriage
are less potentially harmful than sexual relations outside marriage.

To criminalize what Sherzer did is to criminalize travel, or to
criminalize premarital sex, because absent those two elements, he
wouldn't have been guilty of anything.

If "those two elements" were not criminalized, then Alex Sherzer would not
be facing a criminal trial now.

Correct. He would not.
The state of Alabama says that 14 year-olds are mature enough to have sex.

I thought that the laws of Alabama stated that it was acceptable for a married
fourteen-year-old female (married only with the permission of her parents?) to
have sexual intercourse with her husband. Would it be illegal for another man
to have consensual sexual intercourse with her at that age?

Was not the Alex Sherzer trial in federal (not Alabama state) court?

'The long arm of the law will reach, and the strong arm will strike.'
--Charles Dickens (The Mystery of Edwin Drood)

--Nick

(LeModernCaveman) wrote in message
...
LeModernCaveman wrote:
If sex is so harmful to 14 year-olds, why does Alabama make it legal if
they are married?

Nick Bourbaki wrote:
Perhaps Alabama's legislators believe that sexual relations within a
marriage are less potentially harmful than sexual relations outside
marriage.

Then they should criminalize premarital sex.
Oh wait, that's what this trial tried to do.

I doubt that Alex Sherzer's criminal trial was an attempt to criminalize every
act of premarital sexual intercourse in Alabama.

The equal protection clause of the constitution would indicate that the
age of consent in Alabama is *already* fourteen.

For some reason, Alex Sherzer's lawyer failed to appreciate LeModernCaveman's
legal advice to argue about "the equal protection clause" of the United States
Constitution, instead preferring to rely on an entrapment defence on behalf of
Sherzer. I doubt that Alex Sherzer today would regret his lawyer's strategy.

LeModernCaveman wrote:
The state of Alabama says that 14 year-olds are mature enough to have sex.

Nick wrote:
I thought that the laws of Alabama stated that it was acceptable for a
married fourteen-year-old female (married only with the permission of her
parents?) to have sexual intercourse with her husband. Would it be illegal
for another man to have consensual sexual intercourse with her at that age?

Not the point (equal protection under the law).
Alabama sanctions sexual activity for 14 year-olds.

As far as I know, the laws of Alabama permit a fourteen-year-old female to
have sexual intercourse under some circumstances, such as with her husband,
but not all circumstances.

They obviously can't consider it too harmful.

I don't necessarily attempt to attribute any rational motives to the actions
of politicians. :-)

Was not the Alex Sherzer trial in federal (not Alabama state) court?

Why would it be a crime to cross state lines to have sex with a girl who is
of age in her home state? States' rights issue there.

Did not Alabama already lose in the United States Civil War (1861-65)? :-)

The jury has heard all the evidence and given its verdict,
and I respect that verdict.

'I know not whether Laws be right,
Or whether Laws be wrong;
All that we know who lie in Gaol
Is that the wall is strong;
And that each day is like a year,
A year whose days are long.'
--Oscar Wilde (The Ballad of Reading Gaol)

--Nick

"Nick" wrote in message
om...

'I know not whether Laws be right,
Or whether Laws be wrong;
All that we know who lie in Gaol
Is that the wall is strong;
And that each day is like a year,
A year whose days are long.'
--Oscar Wilde (The Ballad of Reading Gaol)

For those that don't know Wilde's story, he was sentenced to prison for the
sin of arrogance.

StanB