"Bob Musicant" wrote:

Rolf, old chap, have you ever considered reading "Wie man Freunde gewinnt.
Die Kunst, beliebt und einflußreich zu werden," von Dale Carnegie (8.9
Euros at amazon.de). I know you are not too concerned about the "beliebt"
part, but you at least assert an interest in the "einflußreich" part.

No, Sir. I'm just concerned about the truth and correct analysis. Normally
you'll hurt 99% of mankind with such evil doings. ;-)



Just a suggestion.

Kind regards,
Bob

PS Chapter 1 will provide you with some ideas for how to convey the message
to Mr. David that he is a lying Jewish ******* without your having to come
out and say so.

That would be slimy. That is when you write some insults at my address and then
a guy comes with a message "oh, Bob, that was the best message I ever read here
in rgcc" and such stuff. You won't ever see that from my side. If I could do
that I would also be friendly towards the German Jew Friedman who takes
cocaine, betrays his girl-friend and messes around with prostitutes from
Ukraine who live like slaves in Germany. The organisation of Ukrainian pimps is
in a German court trial right now.

Rolf, No Saint

Why is this question being asked in a chess Forum ? Might as well
designate this rec.everything.anything.all .


(Rolf Tueschen) wrote in message ...
I want to know how you judge this.

In a private forum a Jewish chess programmer (Omid David) always writes hate
propaganda pro Israel and against Arafat and his Palestinians. Nothing wrong
with that IMO, what would you expect from an Israeli?

But his lies go so far that he for example calls a late German politician, a
former Vice Chancellor of Germany, Juergen W. Moellemann from Muenster, a "Nazi
*******"!

When I read it I couldn't believe my eyes. Moellemann well criticised the
policy of Sharon but he never was a whatever Nazi! Nor a Neo-Nazi. Nor an
anti-Semite.

So, when I read that Nazi-******* insult (Jewish Propaganda) I tried to teach
the guy a lesson from psychology. I turned around the insult and directed it
against himself.

I called Omid David, the brave Israeli, a Jewish ******* and because he had
spread lies about an honest German politician, who is dead BTW, I added the
adjective "lying", so that the whole expression was 'lying Jewish *******'.

After this hell broke lose.

I was defamed as an Anti-Semite.

What do you, from the international community, think about the expression? Is
it impossible to characterize a Jew who's lying as a lying *******? Just
because I am a German I should not be allowed to speak the truth? And if
someone speaks the truth about a Jewish liar, is he therefore an Anti-Semite???

Not that i needed advice. I am old enough to know how to deal with a liar. But
I would be interested in your opinion how you think about a German who calls a
Jewish liar a 'lying Jewish *******'. Is it forbidden because of the Holocaust?


Rolf

"Lion" wrote in message
om...
Bob,

You are well-informed about the political situation in Israel and
Palestine. It is very difficult. There is indeed a strong settler
contingent that will never give up the occupied territories. However,
these people were a small minority until the Intifidah began.

This is the only "way out" as I see it:

Israel must use as a combination of carrot and stick to curb the most
serious short-term difficulty - terrorism. A combination of shows of
goodwill (e.g. school and hospital building in the Gaza Strip and West
Bank) with the hard line tactics they are currently using, would
hopefully reduce full blown terrorism to mere riots.

snip

Ari,
As much as I hate being seen as on the same side with someone as uncivil and
hysterical as Rolf -- and this is a conclusion I reached long before ever
having heard of him -- I have to admit that some of the things I have heard
from the mouths of people in the settler movement strike me as revealing a
mentality very close to that of the Nazis. They view the Palestinians as
subhuman. Among other things of which I have heard, there was the memorial
at one settlement to the man who carried out the massacre of Arabs in
Hebron. And the rabbi who declared that an Arab life wasn't worth as much
as a single Jewish fingernail. I realize that much of the Israeli public
resents these fanatics and the resources it takes to defend them, but that
is what I meant when I said Israeli policy is hostage to the settler
movement.

None of this is to excuse the terrorists. It is sick means of a struggle
for "dignity" that measures success by the number of corpses it creates.
But you see why I think the worst on the Arab side is mirrored by something
very similar on the Israeli side? That is why I am much less optimistic
than you about the prospects for a just peace.

Bob

Rolf,

You throw around a lot of insulting terms like "racist" and
"arrogant." I don't know if it is due to your lack of command of the
English language, but I would like to clarify these terms for you -
not to make your speach more "glittery," but discussion requires
mutual understanding.

A statement such as, "Many Palestinians do not want peace," is not
racist. It is a statement of neutral fact with no negative
connotations to anyone but the individuals in question. If I had
said, "Palestinians do not want peace" this might possibly be
construed as racist, because I would be generalizing about an
ethnicity based on the views of a select few Palestinians. However, I
simply said that "many Palestinians do not want peace." This would be
similar to you saying, "Many Orthodyx Jews support the occupied
settlements."

If comments like these insult what you referred to as your European
open-mindedness, we will not be able to continue a discussion. If it
offends you, when I call an individual who blows up a school bus a
terrorist, then what can I call this individual? An individual who
commits terrorist acts is a terrorist.

I did not say that Palestinians were terrorists. A statement like
that would be racist and untrue. I said that there are Palestinian
terrorists that fund Arafat. This is not a statement of opinion, but
a widely known financial fact.

Secondly, you attacked me and Israel for the actions of the Orthodyx
Jews. Fewer than 20% of Israelis are Orthodyx. I am not orthodyx. I
do not defend the actions or views of the Orthodyx.

You also mentioned that Israel was not "born" but was created out of
the acts of terrorist Jews. This shows a profound misunderstanding of
Israel's history. First of all, the individuals you refer to as
"terrorists" were not terrorists in the strict sense, because their
targets were British military. The definition of terrorism requires
the targets to be civilians. However, this is less important than the
fact that these militant Jews were a tiny minority of the population,
and were looked down upon by most Israelis. Specifically, the
provisional Israeli government declared war on these militants, and
arrested them whenever they could. The Israeli government, the
people, and current historians all agree that these militant acts in
no way aided the creation of Israel. Israel was created by a majority
vote by the United Nations. The early Jewish militants are viewed
with disgust by most Israelis today.

If we are to continue this dialogue, I ask that you refrain from
insults. Your grasp of the English language was strong enough to
correct my usage of the word "born", so I trust that you understand
what is a personal attack and what is not. This is not to aid your
making of friends on this usenet, but rather I don't like to be
distracted by such meaningless fluff in the midst of a meaningfull
discussion.


Regards,
Ari

A key divide in this discussion is that I am speaking from an
Israeli's perspective and Rolf forces me to consider the situation
from a Palestinian's perspective. He asked me why a Palestinian would
want "my" peace.

Here is my attempt at first identifying the Palestinian condition:
Most Palestinians are living in abject poverty with tremendous
unemployment and few prospects for a better future. Many Palestinian
leaders are corrupt, and more interested in their own power and wealth
than in helping the Palestinian people. Israeli soldiers patrol the
streets with military outposts scattering the land. Jewish
settlements are still being built on what Palestinians consider to be
their land.

Many Palestinian religious leaders preach hate and encourage the
Intifidah in Mosques, and Palestinian textbooks for schoolchildren do
not recognize the existence of Israel (they refer to it as the Zionist
entity).

Many Palestinian leaders have long promised the Palestinian people
that they would "push the Jews into the sea" and deliver the entire
country of Israel to the Palestinians.

Now we ask, what do the Palestinians want?

1. Some want an improvement in their lives, better education for
their children, and peace with the Israelis, leading to increased
sovereignty and an independant state.

2. Others want complete control over all of Israel. They want to
force the Jews off the land.

Israelis have long supported #1, and hope for a quick return to the
negotiating table after the terrorism stops. However, large segments
of the Palestinian population support #2. No amount of concessions,
short of giving up Israel's existence, will appease this group. This
is why Rolf's argument is flawed. Israel's best strategy is to work
to improve the material lives of the Palestinians (e.g. building
schools and hospitals), so that the average Palestinian will join
group #1.

Regards,
Ari

Bob,

In any conflict, it is common to draw comparisons between the opposing
sides. However, I feel that most of these comparisons are untrue.
This response will not deal strictly with the claims you have made,
but also with similar statements that I have heard from others:

1. "The Palestinians hate the Jews and the Jews hate the
Palestinians"
I have several objections to this line of reasoning. First off, the
hatred that many Palestinians feel towards the Jews is based in some
cases on religion (religious leaders saying things like "Jewish
infidels") and in some cases on an assumption that Jews do not have a
right to live. Groups like Hamas argue this. On the other hand, most
Jews have no ingrained hatred against Palestinians. In 1996, I would
categorize the opinion of Israelis as thinking of Palestinians as
their less educated and less sophisticated neighbors. There might
have been a bit of condescension, and even racism similar to the
attitudes towards the Irish in America, but no hatred. Only after the
terrorism started did some Israelis begin to "hate" Palestinians. The
important difference is that any Israeli hatred will cease as soon as
its source stops - terrorism. Palestinian hatred will take a
generation to abate completely, when the Palestinian schools and
mosques cease to preach hatred.

2. "Palestinians are killing Israelis, and Israelis are killing
Palestinians."
There is an important difference between blowing up a schoolbus of
children, and assasinating the man responsible for a terroristic act.
Many of Israel's targeted assasinations have resulted in civilian
casualties due to the fact that Militant Palestinian leaders generally
surround themselves at all times by their family. They base their
operations in the basement of schools, and hide bomb-making factories
in hospitals. Does this give Israel the right to kill civilians? No.
However the key question is this: What is the goal? The goal of the
Palestinian terrorists is to kill innocent children. The goal of the
Israeli government is to kill murderers while keeping civilian deaths
to a minimum.

3. "I think the worst on the arab side is mirrored by something very
similar on the Israeli side." The worst on the arab side are
terrorists who kill children. The worst on the Israeli side are
racists who refuse to give up the occupied territories. Are these two
groups comparable? Is it fair to compare a racist who prints
propoganda with the Nazis who committed genocide? Is it fair to
compare a man who discriminates against Blacks when hiring, to a man
who lynches Blacks?

The most important thing, is how does the society as a whole respond
to its most evil elements? A CNN poll a year and a half ago suggested
that 60% of Palestinians supported the terrorist acts again Israelis.
Does this make 60% of Palestinians terrorists? - no. However, it does
suggest that the hatred is not limited to only a small segment of
Palestinians. On the other hand, about a decade ago, a religious Jew
went into a mosque and opened fire with a submachine gun, killing 40
arabs. All of Israel went into morning for the killed arabs, holding
vigils, singing prayers, and having marches in support of the victims.
The Israeli government publicly apologized to the families of the
victims and offered monetary support. Every major newspaper in Israel
published an outcry against the atrocity.

Be careful when drawing parallels. To call someone a Nazi does not
suggest that he is a racist. It suggests that he is a murderer.

"Bob Musicant" wrote:

Ari,
As much as I hate being seen as on the same side with someone as uncivil and
hysterical as Rolf --

Who could be more hysterical than yourself who once called (after deep
thinking!!) Bobby Fischer a paranoid schizophrenic?! That was so low that I ask
myself how I can even talk to you.

But beside of this you have some decent opinions as I could see here. Although
to me this here doesn't sound like a real debate. I would never dare to express
that Israel or single Jews behaved like Nazis. But you reported a good
observation. BTW even members of the Israeli army have said so after one of the
assaults last year.

Anyway - it is not the term that creates reality but the concrete behaviour.
That's why I don't like such exchanges like the one between you two. Where is
the human touch? I mean this is not about the examines next week - this is
about hundreds and thousands of killed people. Sorry - liquidated - to make use
of the Nazi idiom.

I mean, are you both so dick-headed that you really think that the weak
Palestinians could define the conditions of a peace? Is it in chess, in any
sport, well, in politics, is it always the weakest side or partner who decides
what's the future should be? Or is it in chess Kramnik and Kasparov, in many
sports former World Champions, Gold Medal Winner and in politics the USA???

As I said, I dont like the sissy like whining of the strong Israelis. I wanna
hear something from their responsibles. One proposal each week. Peace talkings
day by day. And not half a year silence after one single bus attack. Since when
military leaders mourn for their casualties??? Didn't they sac them after their
_own_ often disgusting preferences and plans?

Why do you discuss what the Palestinians should do? Isn't it more important
what Israel will do? Or do you follow the stinking rule "but he started it, I
didn't do anything, let him make the first move, I can wait years longer...
etc."?

Don't be such dickheads! Please.

Let there be peace, wealth and brotherhood.

GENS UNA SUMUS

Rolf



and this is a conclusion I reached long before ever
having heard of him -- I have to admit that some of the things I have heard
from the mouths of people in the settler movement strike me as revealing a
mentality very close to that of the Nazis. They view the Palestinians as
subhuman. Among other things of which I have heard, there was the memorial
at one settlement to the man who carried out the massacre of Arabs in
Hebron. And the rabbi who declared that an Arab life wasn't worth as much
as a single Jewish fingernail. I realize that much of the Israeli public
resents these fanatics and the resources it takes to defend them, but that
is what I meant when I said Israeli policy is hostage to the settler
movement.

None of this is to excuse the terrorists. It is sick means of a struggle
for "dignity" that measures success by the number of corpses it creates.
But you see why I think the worst on the Arab side is mirrored by something
very similar on the Israeli side? That is why I am much less optimistic
than you about the prospects for a just peace.

Bob

"Lion" wrote in message
om...
snip
Be careful when drawing parallels. To call someone a Nazi does not
suggest that he is a racist. It suggests that he is a murderer.

Ari,
I was born in 1951. In my living room I keep an eighty year-old photograph
of a beautiful young Austrian Jewish woman, a cousin who I never had the
opportunity to meet. She, her husband, and their child were murdered by
Nazis. Please believe me, I understand the distinction you are talking
about. When I write about such matters, I choose my words very carefully,
as I hope you will agree if you look back to how I phrased it.

Bob

Rolf,

I am going to state this one last time: No amount of concessions by
the Israelis would satisfy many of the militant Palestinians. Your
entire argument about the weak and strong is meaningless if the weak
refuse to accept any negotations.

You may criticize the Israeli government, the Orthodyx Settlers, or
the military, but it all amounts to nothing, if the militant
Palestinians will accept nothing short of complete control over all of
Israel. Groups like Hamas don't care about Israeli politics, and they
couldn't care less if Israelis were racist or not. They have stated
plainly that they will not coexist with Israel.

The one other point I want to make, is that terrorism is not
comparable to war. You said that the recent Israeli deaths are the
result of the plans of generals and such. Israeli schoolchildren on a
bus to school are not soldiers. They are not "collateral damage."
They are not lives to be sacrificed to win some land. The same is
true of the Palestinian teenagers that are encouraged to throw their
lives away by their leaders with bombs strapped to their chests.

I have said everything that I can to present the perspective of
Israelis, as well as my own view on the situation. I am sorry that
you consider me "arrogant", "impolite", and "dickheaded." Hopefully
we will have both Palestinian and Israeli leaders for whom these
adjectives do not apply. Hopefully the Palestinian leader will be
able to control the terrorists, and the Israeli leader will be able to
remove the settlements. I will not have time to respond to any
further arguments.

Let us hope that the negotiations go better, with more mutual
understanding and goodwill, then this discussion has had.

"Bob Musicant" wrote:

Ari,
I was born in 1951. In my living room I keep an eighty year-old photograph
of a beautiful young Austrian Jewish woman, a cousin who I never had the
opportunity to meet. She, her husband, and their child were murdered by
Nazis. Please believe me, I understand the distinction you are talking
about. When I write about such matters, I choose my words very carefully,
as I hope you will agree if you look back to how I phrased it.

I feel very sad that you must also suffer in your personal family of what the
Nazi murder has done to so many people.

The more so I respect your objective judgement of the inhuman military policy
of Israel.

But let me also say that I will never have tolerance for your public extremism
in the causa Fischer. You should better analyse if the American people and its
representatives have treated him with the necessary care.

The tragedy of Bobby Fischer is the basic negligence for a chess genius in the
USA. He was applauded when he has beaten the whole Soviet team around Spassky,
but then Americans expected him to behave like all famous hypocrites. But Bobby
from his youth on always was standing on his own. Instead of respecting his
ideosyncrasies the spin doctors and money spenders tried to domesticate him.

Look, Fischer never has done what Kasparov is guilty of. He never cheated his
chess opponents! He never behaved impolite against his chess opponents over the
board.

I wished you could imagine a bit better what it means to be a genius in chess
living in the USA. And being a Jew as Fischer is a terrible handicap. If you
have reason to believe that they cheated you. Then you are all alone.

I wished that people like you, also with the personal wound from the past,
should make better thoughts about Bobby Fischer than just spreading foolish
psychiatric vocabulary.

Rolf


Bob